Ok, i really need advice here.
this is the situation:
1. my players kidnapped ironbriar in magnimar and, once the charm was removed, he sung like a bird all he knew about Xanesha in change of his freedom.
2. my players evaluated the risks.
3. my players decided that the best option is to blow up the shadow tower or make it fall, announcing it to the people around in silence or discreccion so no one is hurt.
Well, i cant imagine the possible consecuences of this. I know Xanesha can fly so for her is not that big problem but i would like to maje this interesting.
any ideas?
thanks!
Post could really have used a spoiler tag
Technical nit: Xanesha can't fly. But she can featherfall so if she's on the roof when the tower falls, she would be mostly okay.
If you are comfortable making suggestions to your players, you might want to observe that collapsing the building would probably destroy (or make unrecoverable) any treasure that might be present as well as any evidence about who and why, etc.
If you wanted to provide some in-play challenges to the plan without stopping it - evacuating the surrounding block or two is not something that can be done all that secretly. If Xanesha is on the roof, she would be in a position to see activity in the streets around the tower and send her minions out. So the Scarecrow or the faceless stalkers (or both!) could come out to investigate. If the pc's draw their opponents out of the building to engage on the pc's terms, that would be an advantage in its own right. Example: if the faceless stalkers are dealt with away from the tower, there is no one to trigger the bell trap. So if they end up exploring the tower afterward (if they can't bring the tower down or change the plan because they've been discovered, etc,) they don't face that risk.
Some of the locals may not be supportive of this plan - it might ruin their homes (such as they are) or they have their own wager on when it will collapse (a thing that is referenced in the AP I believe.) Word could spread that someone is planning to knock over the tower and crowds will start to gather just to watch. Indeed it could be someone racing to put a wager on the tower falling that triggers significant interest.
I'd be interested in hearing how they intend to bring it down. It certainly appears unstable, but it's stood "as-is" for decades. And being less stable than a "properly" built tower doesn't necessarily mean it's easy to tumble. Whatever their plan, it won't be quick - requiring some actions around the tower, etc. - again the tower residents shouldn't sit idly by while someone acts to destroy the building their currently in/living in.
Post could really have used a spoiler tag
** spoiler omitted **...
Hellow latrecis!
First of all, thank you very much for the advice. I'm afraid i dont know how to make a post with the spoiler tag. Could you teach me?
Talking about the plan, i think the idea is to make the cleric prepare "deform stone"? i dont know the translation, but i believe the spell turns stone in any shape the caster wants. So, with that spell and a little bit of eingenieering knowledge they pretend to make it fall.
I really liked your ideas, if they go with it, i'll make the crowd beign an obstacle, and maybe Xanesha can take all the treasures fast enough to find another place to hide? Dont know, maybe she rages when the PC'S come to take the tower down and make her atack launching spells from the tower's walls.
Someone should probably roll Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) DC 15 or so to realize what changes should be made to bring it down: if they roll a 16 or higher they may realize that using a touch spell to bring down a building you are standing in might not be be the safest thing to do. :)
Someone should probably roll Knowledge (Architecture and Engineering) DC 15 or so to realize what changes should be made to bring it down: if they roll a 16 or higher they may realize that using a touch spell to bring down a building you are standing in might not be be the safest thing to do. :)
any ideas about damage or saving throws if they persist in the plan and fail or something?
Like tonyz I assume the spell you were referring to is stone shape which has a range of touch. 10 cubic feet + 1 cubic foot per level (assume 17 cubic feet at this point) sounds like a lot but for an building the size of the clock tower it really isn't that much. I couldn't find a reference to the wall thickness in the AP, but the map implies they are at least 5 feet thick. And I'd suspect thicker near the ground. Multiple spells and a very good knowledge engineering check (20 seems right to me, 15 for a generous GM) would seem the minimum necessary. I would step that up significantly if they want to influence or control how it collapses or where it falls.
If they are near the building or in the building when it collapses, barring anything better I'd use the earthquake spell as a guide for what happens. Including references to being pinned or trapped in the rubble, etc.
If you're looking for how-to on formatting posts, etc. there is a "how to format your text" button just beneath the posting window.
Yeah, stone shape is a wonky enough spell go where you would be within your rights as a dm to allow it to work. A knowledge engineering check to figure out how seems appropriate, with a higher check to do it in a controlled manner. But it seems like a pretty questionable idea. Lost treasure. Lost clues. Potential loss of life, with folks around the tower. Heck, for. All they know, there could be innocents up in the tower.
My players want to do a similar thing to the Catacombs of Wrath, trying to figure out if they can turn the Glassworks furnaces down there. Without even going down the tunnel to see how far it goes.
I think that the loss of both treasure and evidence would be a deterrant to most parties. And without the evidence (for example, a certain letter), they don't have any means to justify their actions when the city authorities demand an explanation for the party's vandalism. (This is particularly true if Ironbriar was allowed to leave town.)
If the party manages to explore the tower instead and defeat X normally, then X's body and the written evidence would help the party to defend their actions. Not to mention bringing them to the attention of a certain overweight city official. No evidence equals no special reward and no special jobs in the future (for example, the start of Book 3!).
If the party insists on their plan, then I agree with the the previous posts about necessary skill checks, crowd difficulties, etc. You can also look up the rules for avalanches/landslides (with bury zones and slide zones) and the related Cave-Ins/Collapses rules.
Hellow everyone.
Thanks to you all for your advice, tips and suggestions. I thought you would like to know how did it all end, so here's what happened in the last session and how it's going to affect the whole Magnimar.
The last and new member of the team, Framan (rogue and member of the Pathfinder society) was reading the book they took from Ironbriar's treasure, learning about the terrible legends, he saw Sazed leaving the mannor, and adviced him, "be carefull in the tower, remember we know about the faceless stalkers there"
Sazed casted fly, and flew right to the shadow tower. After 10 mins looking for a weak point, he decided to launch 2 fireballs to the weak spot in one side of the tower. With the first one, Xanesa reacted, and waited for her enemy's second movement. When the second one striked, she feather fall in the opposite direction of the falling tower.
Yes, the second fireball's damage was enough to make the tower fall...right over the poor district of Magnimar, without anyone knowing that was about to happen, not even the heroes of this history.
Sazed, just like it was nothing, walked his way back to the mannor, and went to sleep.
Roland Galvan, who was in that district, suddenly felt an enourmous and violent vibration. A few seconds after that, the windows of the church where he was healing people turned grey, just like they was hit by a dust cloud. When he opened the doors, a living hell of death and desperation came to his eyes. He send his follower to the mannor, to alert Astrid and Framan, and joined the horror like a torch of light in the darkest night, saving all the people he could, and organizing the peasants so they can scape or help other to do so.
Framan saw people horroriced in the district, and went out to have a look. All he saw was an enormous pile of dust and smoke, but he thought the worse, and ran into the caos, but he left Astrid asleep.
What happened next is all about timing.
1. Roland saw the horror, helped the people, and remember that Ironbriar told them the tower was Xanesa's house. He went to the tower, he fighted 1vs1 the mighty meat golem and defeat him, ¡awsome! even if the golem was damaged by the tower's fall. Sad for him, Xanesa was there, and she killed him.
2. Framan joined the chaos, and after an hour helping, he found Astrid. "I'm going to the tower to see if i can help there" he said. Astrid didnt go with him. What he found was Roland, trying to unburry some people. That was Xanesa, casting a mayor ilusion on anyone who get close to the tower. She knew about the local superstision, so anyone getting close should be an enemy. He killed Framan, taking him by surprise.
3. Astrid, after a few hours, got worried. She went to see what happened, and fell in the same illusion trap. Xanesa had a little bit of a hard time fighting her, since she was with Roland's follower, but that wasnt enough to stop the monster woman. Astrid died too.
When the morning came, Sazed took his breakast and went to the poor side of the town, just to see what happened. He found evidences of fight, murder and assasination, but nothing left of the bodies (Xanesa is clever enough to hide the corpses, and using them in the future). He decided that the situation is pretty bad for him, he left a note in the mannor just in case Astrid came back, and leaved Magnimar.
Consecuences of this session: I dont want to extend too much, but ive a few ideas, and you can help me if you want.
1. Mangnimar politics about casters are now lawfull evil. Every caster must sign in a citie's document, and they are not allowed to use magic without permision. Using magic in public, in front on some important personallity or something can result in imprisonment or even death sentence.
2. Xanesa is looking for a second place to stay, but now she knows someone is looking for her, and she has sent a letter to her sister. The heroes are dead now, so Nualia (who survived and is working with Xanesa's sister) is going back to Sandpoint to take it down. Also Xanesa's sister is just laughing about her, but she decided that sending someone to help her sister could also be a victory.
3. There are just 3 more 10K diamonds in Magnimar (so the allyes of the team can ressurect them this time) but they could never be ressurected again due the prohibitions of the city.
And thats all! than you so much, and hope you liked it!
... How did Nualia survive? She has no means of escape from the room she's in unless the party is silly enough to let her go. Also, the adventure goes out of its way to say that Xanesha and Lucrecia hate each other and won't work together under any circumstances.
Im glad to answer you.
Nualia survived because the party triggered the twistletop alarm, and after doing that, they retired 8 hours to recover one or two spells. Nualia orchested one or two ambushes with her fellows, but she leaved, flying, because she impregnated Ameiko with a monstrous child and Lamasthu rewarded her with the semi-infernal template.(ameiko was kidnaped like 3 days ago, plus the 8 hours the PC's decided to give her for free...)
Lucrecia and Xanesha hate each other, that's true, and Lucrecia is not going to help her sister a lot, not without something in return. However, if you remember, even Lucrecia is interested in Grobaras as a precious soul to collect. I dont think that hate, or sense of competition would stop her to help her sister when that help can make the difference between controling Magnimar or have 5 heroes knocking in her door.
That said, i thought that Lucrecia would never involve herself in this affair, she's most suitable to send one or two agents that help her sister in the mission of collecting Grobara's soul, and she can even try to kill her sister once the mission is accomplished.
Yeesh. Honestly, I feel like this is a legit "hey you guys lost, game over" scenario.
The sorcerer's actions are so freaking evil, I can't imagine how he's supposed to function in a party. I'm not sure why the dead party members would be revived, given the death and destruction done there. I certainly don't see why they would continue to adventure with that sorcerer, or why anyone else would.
And now you gotta figure out how to get. The party on the trail of the next book. But like...if anything, that sorcerer is the new villain of the story.
Does the new magic policy in Magnimar cover both arcane and divine magic? I would think that the law-/policy-makers would still allow various healing and resurrection-style spells, as they themselves could easily be in need of magic like that at a later point.
Yeesh. Honestly, I feel like this is a legit "hey you guys lost, game over" scenario.
The sorcerer's actions are so freaking evil, I can't imagine how he's supposed to function in a party. I'm not sure why the dead party members would be revived, given the death and destruction done there. I certainly don't see why they would continue to adventure with that sorcerer, or why anyone else would.
And now you gotta figure out how to get. The party on the trail of the next book. But like...if anything, that sorcerer is the new villain of the story.
This is a lovely point of view, you made me feel so good saying this is a legit "hey guys you lost" scenario. I was very afraid of beign too hard.
I'm telling you what will happen.
First of all, that sorcerer is leaving the city, very afraid of the consecuences but also afraid of himself. The excuse of the player to act like that was "my PC is only fifhteen years old, and only in three months i'm more powerfull than most people, this power is controling me". So, he leaved in the search of someone who can help him to control his power and find the good path.
That said, my players have been doing quite a good job. Roland (paladin) have spend more than 3K of gold in solving powerty, also have taken more than a hundred goblins leaded by gogmurt and find a home for them. They even found teachers for that gobs so then they can learn how to properly hunt and work in the field.
They saved sandpoint from the Sczarni and a second quest i made, putting Jubrayl on the run, and that kind of acts keep on and on.
Thanks to that kind of act they met an awsome cleric in Magnimar called Zacharias, a lvl 14 big afroamerican man whose only purppose in Magnimar is taking care of an ancient elf called Grolo, the best friend of his father, grandfather and so on by generations. Zacharias resurrected Astrid Foxglove (the cleric) once, and he did it for free, because he's aware of what's happening, and also aware of what the group is doing. Sadly for him, he cant get involved due to the close ending of his friend, and the conscecuences that will have to his own history.
However, he can make them come back one final time. I'm setting that, in the new scenario, Zacharias, helped by Roland's follower and cousin, have suceeded in the task of finding 3 10K diamonds in Magnimar, enough to resurrect the heroes just one more time, one final favour until he have to leave this side of the world. The characters will find a very changed magnimar, and most of his good acts have been blown up but they still have a chance to rebuild what have been destroyed, to fight the demons who tried to burry them, and to, what the hell, being the heroes of this history.
For me, this is a great oportunity my group have to live an awsome and epic adventure, i know we will be far from the books for a few sessions, but i think its worth it, i dont feel comfortable rushing this oportunity just to let them keep playing the books.
Does the new magic policy in Magnimar cover both arcane and divine magic? I would think that the law-/policy-makers would still allow various healing and resurrection-style spells, as they themselves could easily be in need of magic like that at a later point.
I think its covering both.
You are right, totally right, however, this is what's happening:
Xanesha survived, and she's not wasting the chance of beign soooo evil. This catastrophe is the perfect kitchen for her. Death, desperation, heroe's dead, and a city who's enraged by the fact that his mostly hated mayor did nothing to prevent this to happen.
Yeah, it seems like a perfect pool for the bad boys to feel so cool.
Xanesha won, thats the true, so she take this oportunity and use it like there's no tomorrow. She finally tempted Grobaras, making him fall to her charms and preparing his soul to the final step. (I have to say i'm between killing grobaras and replacing him with a hat of disguise that one character had, or make her being cocky and maintain grobaras alive just to "improve his soul" untill the moment of beign killed with the ritual).
that said, Xanesha is the one behind the hard prohibitions. Clausured church's, closed magic shops, casters forced to be counted and controlled, basically an iron hand government, and all for what? to make black market and avarice souls rise like mushrooms in the dark. She's making a wounded city feel sick, casting an ilusion of solutions over the population, radicalizing them, spreading hate and panic and so on.
On top of that, the death of the bright heroes is the green light to Nualia, who have been waiting her oportunity.
"Wait a minute. Did they just take down an ancient tower over the poor side of the town and then went to kill you one by one? Well, it seems that my time to take revenge over Sandpoint has come".
Yeah, i know, they are really f!!#ed up, that's what i keep needing help here. I'm making a small chapter of my own, i'm calling it "The rise of the serpent queen", and basically the chapter is about defeating Xanesha in an scenario where she won.
I have a few ideas, but every advice you can give will be very wellcome.
Well, good then, as long as everyone is having fun.
What's to become of the sorcerer exactly? I maintain he doesn't seem like he should be in the party anymore. Personally, I would consider having the PC become an evil NPC for a while and wind up getting recruited by one of Karzoug's agents. Show up in one of the later chapters at the side of a boss wizard. It also seems like something that could potentially involve Corruption rules.
I think Xanesha should have killed the Lord Mayor. It was her ultimate goal, and she should accomplish it. Spurred by her sister's taunts, she could then place a new puppet(s) in charge in the power vacuum and start executing greedy people left and right. Have the new dictator run a crusade to burn out every last bit of corruption left from Grobaras, for starters, and every crackdown on the financial district you can think of. Go full Orwell on it.
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Huh, I think I missed chance to comment on tower exploding. I did tell to my party when they thought of it "Even if you manage to evacuate the area, you are likely to make these slum living people even more homeless, you already know they are making bets about how many deaths it will cause. Plus you probably would destroy loot and chance to find out what is going on" xP
I also think they were motived by idea of "wait, so nobody wants the tower, so if we clear it out of Xanesha we could buy it and fix it for our own use."
(they ended up making it into a club. Seriously)
Well, good then, as long as everyone is having fun.
What's to become of the sorcerer exactly? I maintain he doesn't seem like he should be in the party anymore. Personally, I would consider having the PC become an evil NPC for a while and wind up getting recruited by one of Karzoug's agents. Show up in one of the later chapters at the side of a boss wizard. It also seems like something that could potentially involve Corruption rules.
I think Xanesha should have killed the Lord Mayor. It was her ultimate goal, and she should accomplish it. Spurred by her sister's taunts, she could then place a new puppet(s) in charge in the power vacuum and start executing greedy people left and right. Have the new dictator run a crusade to burn out every last bit of corruption left from Grobaras, for starters, and every crackdown on the financial district you can think of. Go full Orwell on it.
Wow, i really liked this scenario too!!
Okay, first thing first, what's happening with the sorcerer,
1. He leave the city, and find someone good that changes him and make him walk a "not-so-dark" path.
2. He find someone evil, that takes on the oportunity to manipulate him in his weak moment, and turns the young sorcerer into an evil son of a witch.
I have a problem here, and my problem is that i'm pretty sure that my player would be so pissed if i turn his PC in an enemy of the group. I'm not fine with this since i think you cant play a game and expect your DM to do nothing when you turn evil. Yeah, i know i have the "he dont know how to control it" excuse, but i'm not convinced, he knew perfectly what he was doing, he also said "in the poor district there are only baggers and burglars, so who cares"
Talking about Xanesha.
Yeah, i liked your idea, and i'm borrowing it, i think it totally suits her...but i dont know what can be the consecuences for Karzoug, i mean, if she wins and take all that souls...what are the consecuences? She's not supposed to win and the murdering is supposed to end, thats how the PC's stop the big bad guy to win steps...
Huh, I think I missed chance to comment on tower exploding. I did tell to my party when they thought of it "Even if you manage to evacuate the area, you are likely to make these slum living people even more homeless, you already know they are making bets about how many deaths it will cause. Plus you probably would destroy loot and chance to find out what is going on" xP
I also think they were motived by idea of "wait, so nobody wants the tower, so if we clear it out of Xanesha we could buy it and fix it for our own use."
(they ended up making it into a club. Seriously)
That's is pretty cool, a club? hahaha, what kind of club?.
My main problem here was that the sorcerer player didnt even ask. He flew, shot, and leave...
Seriously, he didnt even asked "how many people can die if i do this?" or..."is this an evil act?"
he just asked me how many fireballs were neccesary
On Karzoug: that's gonna be your call. You've deviated a lot from the script so it's hard to say what should happen. The adventure does say Karzoug's timeline for revival is ultimately kept ambiguous so you can mesh with your particular story. I think Karzoug should maybe have some kinda boon from all this, but IDK what it is yet. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around level 20 power dynamics without altering them.
As for the sorcerer, it's a little hard to say if this is all going to be happening off screen. But if you want formalized rules for this guy becoming an evil NPC, check this out. It also fits with the sin theme of the story, which is great.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/corruption/demonic-corrup tion/
On Karzoug: that's gonna be your call. You've deviated a lot from the script so it's hard to say what should happen. The adventure does say Karzoug's timeline for revival is ultimately kept ambiguous so you can mesh with your particular story. I think Karzoug should maybe have some kinda boon from all this, but IDK what it is yet. I'm still having trouble wrapping my head around level 20 power dynamics without altering them.
As for the sorcerer, it's a little hard to say if this is all going to be happening off screen. But if you want formalized rules for this guy becoming an evil NPC, check this out. It also fits with the sin theme of the story, which is great.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/gamemastering/other-rules/corruption/demonic-corrup tion/
thank you so much!
You can probably tie it into all the Lamashtu stuff from book 1. Give the sorcerer some crazy dreams involving her.
Keep in mind, this tower destruction should definitely have taken him into stage 1 of the corruption, so he's just two failed saves away from turning into a demonic NPC. The general recommendation for Manifestations is one per 2 character levels, but it's up to you to determine how many he has as a mid level character if he needs to catch up.
Removing the corruption:"Redemption requires slaying the demon who corrupted you or cleansing the site where you were corrupted." I'd probably require the guy not only a lay Xanesha to free Magnigmar, but spend significant time and resources helping the victims of tower fall and otherwise repairing that part of town.
You can probably tie it into all the Lamashtu stuff from book 1. Give the sorcerer some crazy dreams involving her.
Keep in mind, this tower destruction should definitely have taken him into stage 1 of the corruption, so he's just two failed saves away from turning into a demonic NPC. The general recommendation for Manifestations is one per 2 character levels, but it's up to you to determine how many he has as a mid level character if he needs to catch up.
Removing the corruption:"Redemption requires slaying the demon who corrupted you or cleansing the site where you were corrupted." I'd probably require the guy not only a lay Xanesha to free Magnigmar, but spend significant time and resources helping the victims of tower fall and otherwise repairing that part of town.
I'm totally borrowing this. Also, taking down this tower is not his first evil act, he has some more on his list.
Thank you so much captain, and also everyone for the help, i'll start preparing the new scenario and try to figure out how to go back to the books ^^