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Charge says:
"You must have a clear path toward the opponent, and nothing can hinder your movement (such as difficult terrain or obstacles)."
Tanglefoot Bag says:
"Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed."
Entangled Condition says:
"An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge"
Q: if someone gets hit by tanglefoot bag and successfully saves, is he prevented from charging? (please note that tanglefoot bag does not give the entangled condition, just the speed reduction; please also note that all you need to hit is a ranged touch attack vs. Touch AC, which makes it possible to stop mounted / charge / high level builds easily and at a ridiculous low cost)
Thank you!
Anything that hinders your movement prevents a charge. A reduction in speed is hindering your movement, so yes. A tanglefoot bag prevents a charge.
And you are wrong. The bag does give the entangled condition, even on a successful save. The only thing making the save does is allow you to move at have speed instead of being immobile. The penalty to attack rolls and Dexterity still applies. The Reflex save is only to avoid being glued to the floor.
No charge for you!
Even if you save you still have the entangled condition for 2d4 rounds. As you posted, the entangled condition prevents charging, so no charging.
Q: if someone gets hit by tanglefoot bag and successfully saves, is he prevented from charging? (please note that tanglefoot bag does not give the entangled condition, just the speed reduction;
What gives you that idea? It clearly states that the victim is entangled.
When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed.
Basically, a successful save gives you the entangled condition (half speed, -2 attack tolls, -4 Dexterity). A failed save gives you the entangled condition, as well as a further drawback of not being able to move at all. Regardless of making the save or not, your are entangled and can't charge.
(please note that tanglefoot bag does not give the entangled condition, just the speed reduction;
Are you certain this is the case ?
Price 50 gp; Weight 4 lbs.
A tanglefoot bag is a small sack filled with tar, resin, and other sticky substances. When you throw a tanglefoot bag at a creature (as a ranged touch attack with a range increment of 10 feet), the bag comes apart and goo bursts out, entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed. Huge or larger creatures are unaffected by a tanglefoot bag. A flying creature is not stuck to the floor, but it must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be unable to fly (assuming it uses its wings to fly) and fall to the ground. A tanglefoot bag does not function underwater.
A creature that is glued to the floor (or unable to fly) can break free by making a DC 17 Strength check or by dealing 15 points of damage to the goo with a slashing weapon. A creature trying to scrape goo off itself, or another creature assisting, does not need to make an attack roll; hitting the goo is automatic, after which the creature that hit makes a damage roll to see how much of the goo was scraped off. Once free, the creature can move (including flying) at half speed. If the entangled creature attempts to cast a spell, it must make a concentration check with a DC of 15 + the spell's level or be unable to cast the spell. The goo becomes brittle and fragile after 2d4 rounds, cracking apart and losing its effectiveness. An application of universal solvent to a stuck creature dissolves the alchemical goo immediately. Crafting this item is a DC 25 Craft (alchemy) check.
While the text does not contain the phrase "gains the entangled condition", it does say things like
When you throw a tanglefoot bag ... entangling the target.
An entangled creature takes ...
If the entangled creature attempts ...
EDIT: ninjas (sigh)
Anything that hinders your movement prevents a charge.
Not entirely true. That sentence is a clause of the preceeding "You must have a clear path to your opponnent" and has a parenthetical example of (such as difficult terrain or obstacles), which together indicate that such hindrances are A within the path of your charge and B external forces.
Nowhere does charge mention speed reductions as a stopping point, which is notable considering how the first line emphasizes "tight restrictions". In fact, all mentions of speed are covered in the first paragraph, distinct from the one mentioning hindrances to movement.
Speed changes are not the same as difficult terrain, even if they frequently create the same effect. A creature that moves at half speed, such as due to a slow spell, is not experiencing difficult terrain. This makes it still possible to take actions like 5' steps, and charge. If an additional speed penalty from another source was added, the character may be unable to 5' step (if reduced to a speed of 5), but could still charge (although such charge would barely qualify as the character could only meet the minimum 10' of movement by moving double speed). But if said character was ALSO in difficult terrain, the speed reductions would likewise stack, and the clauses for difficult terrain under both 5' step and charge would apply, preventing both actions.
Difficult terrain and movement penalties are a square/rectangle sort of thing.
But all of this is relatively moot to Silvermane's query as tangelfoot bags DO explictly entangle you, which explicitly prevents a charge. Emphasis mine:
entangling the target and then becoming tough and resilient upon exposure to air. An entangled creature takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls and a –4 penalty to Dexterity and must make a DC 15 Reflex save or be glued to the floor, unable to move. Even on a successful save, it can move only at half speed.
There may be a misunderstanding here: the reflex save is merely to avoid being anchored in place to the floor. Succeeding allows the character to move at half speed, as normal for entangled. Which, as mentioned above, wouldn't prevent a charge, but entangle the condition specifically does. Specific trumps general.
So yes, tanglefoot bags can shut down charge builds. I find that acceptable, others may not. But rules as written, that's how it works.
*edit - yup, ninjas*
wouldn't some one charging with evasions remains un-hindered on a successful save as evasion makes it so you are unaffected by stuff on a successful save?
Evasion only works with damage. It has no effect on anything else, unless the specific effect says so. Evasion does nothing to help with a tanglefoot bag.
Evasion (Ex): At 2nd level and higher, a rogue can avoid even magical and unusual attacks with great agility. If she makes a successful Reflex saving throw against an attack that normally deals half damage on a successful save, she instead takes no damage. Evasion can be used only if the rogue is wearing light armor or no armor. A helpless rogue does not gain the benefit of evasion.
That's not what the Rogue extraordinary ability Evasion does. Evasion only prevents damage, it has no effect on anything else.
EDIT: ninjas again
Anything that hinders your movement prevents a charge.Not entirely true.
Entirely true.
Hinder:
create difficulties for (someone or something), resulting in delay or obstruction.
"various family stalemates were hindering communication"
synonyms: hamper, obstruct, impede, inhibit, retard, balk, prevent, thwart, foil, curb, delay, arrest, interfere with, set back, slow down, hobble, hold back, hold up, stop, halt; More
Anything that hinders your ability to move ends the charge. It could be darkness, difficult terrain, reduction in movement.
Having declared and lost your action, your turn is over.
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well dragon style will just bypass the tangle foot effect all together and allow some one to chargeHow so?
Doesn't work.
Benefit: While using this style, you gain a +2 bonus on saving throws against sleep effects, paralysis effects, and stunning effects. You ignore difficult terrain when you charge, run, or withdraw. You can also charge through squares that contain allies. Further, you can add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus on the damage roll for your first unarmed strike on a given round.
Says nothing about being able to charge or run while entangled, which is why you can't charge under the effects of a tanglefoot bag. You ignore difficult terrain, but the tanglefoot bag doesn't create difficult terrain. Nor does it help avoid being glued in place, as that is neither a stunning or paralysis effect.
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so long as you make your save the effect is the same as difficult terrain ie moving at half speed and not being able to charge or take a 5 foot step
No. Even if you make the save, you still have the entangled condition (reduced speed, penalty to attack rolls and Dexterity, concentration check to cast spells). The entangled condition specifically prevents charging. You are entangled regardless of whether or not you make the save. We have already covered this earlier in the thread.
There are multiple ways to be slowed down. Difficult terrain is just one of them. Just because you are slowed does not mean it is the same as difficult terrain. Dragon Style does absolutely nothing to allow you to charge while entangled.
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There may be a misunderstanding here: the reflex save is merely to avoid being anchored in place to the floor. Succeeding allows the character to move at half speed, as normal for entangled. Which, as mentioned above, wouldn't prevent a charge, but entangle the condition specifically does. Specific trumps general.
This is the crux of my question. I am wondering if the authors of tanglefoot bag used 'entangled' as the English language 'result of the previous sentence's entangling'.
I know this sounds off at first read, but the more I read tanglefoot bag, the less I'm convinced they meant to use that item to apply the entangled condition. It is very oddly written, replicating the rules of the entangled condition in many parts. If it was just meant to grant the condition they could have written this much faster i.e. the target gains the entangled condition.
It wouldn't be the only alchemical item that can apply conditions, mind you, but it's a pretty major one that can basically only be undone by magical flight, freedom of movement, or size increase to huge... :P
There may be a misunderstanding here: the reflex save is merely to avoid being anchored in place to the floor. Succeeding allows the character to move at half speed, as normal for entangled. Which, as mentioned above, wouldn't prevent a charge, but entangle the condition specifically does. Specific trumps general.This is the crux of my question. I am wondering if the authors of tanglefoot bag used 'entangled' as the English language 'result of the previous sentence's entangling'.
I know this sounds off at first read, but the more I read tanglefoot bag, the less I'm convinced they meant to use that item to apply the entangled condition. It is very oddly written, replicating the rules of the entangled condition in many parts. If it was just meant to grant the condition they could have written this much faster i.e. the target gains the entangled condition.
It wouldn't be the only alchemical item that can apply conditions, mind you, but it's a pretty major one that can basically only be undone by magical flight, freedom of movement, or size increase to huge... :P
They are using the game term. The net also repeats parts of the entangled rules while applying the entangled condition in addition to whatever difficulties the net provides. The tanglefoot bag does the same thing. It makes you entangled, and does additional things.
Other parts of the book also sometimes repeat the rules, as a reminder of how things work.
So it seems worth investing a bit improving your ability to use Tanglefoot Bags (or Tanglefoot Arrows, for better range but lower Save DC) if you are up against a lot of enemies that are smaller than Huge and don't have Freedom of Movement handy.