So we’ve all seen the threads. Solarians suck, how can we fix Solarians? When will Solarians he updated? These are the problems with Solarians, or that, or whatever.
But thinking about it, I think I’ve figured out the big issue. While making a ‘solvent’ (not optimized, but solvent, i.e. able to carry their own weight) a Solarian is restricted to a few builds (I count about four). And none of those builds feel particularly ‘Solarian theamed.’
Let’s oppose this to all other class who have a much larger set of choices. Want to make a vesk mechanic? Or Technomancer? Well it may not be optimal, but it is do-able. You can build a vesk mechanic with an Exocortex and 14 int that acts as a support shooter just fine (again, might not be optimal, but the will be able to pull their weight.). You can make a Star shaman pilot, or a scientist, or whatever.
But to get your Solarian doing well, you are pretty much restricted to 4 builds.
1) 1 true build- Some Str-boosting Race, blitz soldier 1, rest into weapon Solarian. Wears heavy armor
2) Korasha Lashunta Solarian, first feat heavy armor prof. 16 Str, 14/16 Charisma
3) Armor Solarian with high dex and first two feats are longarm prof (or sniper) and versatile specialization.
4) High dex, Charisma, and strength (Drow or skittermander), armor Solarian with first feat as advanced weapon prof, second as versatile specialization.
There may be a little wiggle room for these, but not much.
The problem here is that none of these themes feel particularly Solarian-ish. I think the feel that PAIZO is going for is the lightly-armored full melee combatant, like the monk or magus from pathfinder. The problem is that both the magus and the monk had the ability to boost their AC. Monks got their wisdom to AC in addition to dex, static bonuses every few levels, and could further boost it with Mage armor and such. Maguses has several defensive abilities like the shield spell, mirror image, haste, and so forth. The thing is, Solarians don’t have any of that. When compared to a soldier they get hit more often, probably have fewer resolve points, and likely have worse off ability DCs. In return they get slightly more versatility? Maybe?
What would solve this? I dunno. A number of things. Changing their key ability score to Str or Dex would do it. Giving Solarians both weapons and armor might do it, letting the. Add Charisma to AC if wearing light armor? I dunno. It just seems that there is no way to build an iconic Solarian that can pull their own weight. Thoughts?
The other big issue I have with Solarians is that the class really wants to incentivize you flipping in and out of stellar modes as the situation dictates but this is hamstrung by the fact that, depending on build, one mode is generally dead weight for you. CC solarians have nearly no use for ever entering Graviton unless there's a corner case they need to use Wormholes or Stealth Warp, and ranged gunners get very little of of Photon. In fact, there's a general problem in the revelations in general in that you have a limited selection of choices and around half of them are basically jokes. I mean, Astrological Sense is a fun gimmick, but why on earth would I take it over Stellar Rush, Plasma Sheathe, or even stuff like Soul Furnace. Same applies to Graviton where I can't see anyone ever taking Defy Gravity and several other options compared to ye olde Dark Matter or Gravity Boost.
The internal revelation balance is pretty horrific and honestly would be my first place to fix rather than mucking with key stats and such.
All the angst about Solarians has really intrigued me, because I haven't had a chance to play one (though I should have) or get one into a game yet.
I really do have to wonder if most of the "problems" are coming from scenarios where by far their biggest asset, it seems to me -- being a fighter with spell-like powers which not only don't have to worry about spell slots, but become stronger as combat progresses -- isn't made useful or relevant. (It's much like I've noticed that there are some Themes that can struggle to become relevant depending on the available modes of play.)
Also, I look at statements like Tarik's above and I'm puzzled; what kind of build would a Solarian have to have for one or another of, say, being able to set things on fire when they hit you or heal 18 points of damage nearly on demand to be "dead weight"? Why are powers "jokes" if they're not focused on dealing damage?
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ahh this thread again ,
the solarians are fine, there not quite as good as a soldier but they have a lot of unusually stuff they can do to offset this
they can easily be a high ac strong melee combatant and
a high ac ranged decent shooter
All the angst about Solarians has really intrigued me, because I haven't had a chance to play one (though I should have) or get one into a game yet.
I really do have to wonder if most of the "problems" are coming from scenarios where by far their biggest asset, it seems to me -- being a fighter with spell-like powers which not only don't have to worry about spell slots, but become stronger as combat progresses -- isn't made useful or relevant. (It's much like I've noticed that there are some Themes that can struggle to become relevant depending on the available modes of play.)
Also, I look at statements like Tarik's above and I'm puzzled; what kind of build would a Solarian have to have for one or another of, say, being able to set things on fire when they hit you or heal 18 points of damage nearly on demand to be "dead weight"? Why are powers "jokes" if they're not focused on dealing damage?
The ‘dead weight’ problem comes with the fact that it takes at least two rounds to switch between modes, one of which, when you are ‘unattuned’ is useless.
So what’s better, having a blade that does extra damage and the ability to charge as a standard action with no penalty, or turning all of that off for a round and then, the round after, being able to heal yourself?
Most weapon guys are just going to turn on photon mode and forget it, unless you need to explode. Most graviton guys are gonna turn on graviton mode and forget it, unless they really need to pull someone adjacent.
The ‘dead weight’ problem comes with the fact that it takes at least two rounds to switch between modes, one of which, when you are ‘unattuned’ is useless.
Is that really what Tarik was talking about? Because it looked like he was saying one or the other would be dead weight to a character build, not during an encounter. (And I mean yes, you have to commit to one or another mode during an encounter, more or less. I still don't see how that could make half the choices on offer "dead weight" for a character build.)
the solarians are fine, there not quite as good as a soldier but they have a lot f unusually stuff they can do to offset this
they can easily be a high ac strong melee combatant and
a high ac ranged decent shooter
The problem I have with them is that your basic Solarian just can’t frontline. They need to split their focus between Str, dex, Con, and Chr, whereas a melee soldier just needs strength and con. Plus, the ‘feel’ of the class is lightly armored, but to have a fighting chance they need heavy armor, which seems to just be a first level feat tax.
Listen, I really want to make an old man Kung Fu master using the Solarian, where his Solarian weapon is a photon aura around him that lets his ‘Unarmed’ strikes do serious damage, but between splitting his ability scores and how bad his light armor is, it just cannot work out mechanically. He would not be able to pull his own weight.
So we’ve all seen the threads. Solarians suck, how can we fix Solarians? When will Solarians he updated? These are the problems with Solarians, or that, or whatever.
But thinking about it, I think I’ve figured out the big issue. While making a ‘solvent’ (not optimized, but solvent, i.e. able to carry their own weight) a Solarian is restricted to a few builds (I count about four). And none of those builds feel particularly ‘Solarian theamed.’
Let’s oppose this to all other class who have a much larger set of choices. Want to make a vesk mechanic? Or Technomancer? Well it may not be optimal, but it is do-able. You can build a vesk mechanic with an Exocortex and 14 int that acts as a support shooter just fine (again, might not be optimal, but the will be able to pull their weight.). You can make a Star shaman pilot, or a scientist, or whatever.
But to get your Solarian doing well, you are pretty much restricted to 4 builds.
1) 1 true build- Some Str-boosting Race, blitz soldier 1, rest into weapon Solarian. Wears heavy armor
2) Korasha Lashunta Solarian, first feat heavy armor prof. 16 Str, 14/16 Charisma
3) Armor Solarian with high dex and first two feats are longarm prof (or sniper) and versatile specialization.
4) High dex, Charisma, and strength (Drow or skittermander), armor Solarian with first feat as advanced weapon prof, second as versatile specialization.
There may be a little wiggle room for these, but not much.
The problem here is that none of these themes feel particularly Solarian-ish. I think the feel that PAIZO is going for is the lightly-armored full melee combatant, like the monk or magus from pathfinder. The problem is that both the magus and the monk had the ability to boost their AC. Monks got their wisdom to AC in addition to dex, static bonuses every few levels, and could further boost it with Mage armor and such. Maguses has several defensive abilities like the shield spell, mirror image, haste, and so forth. The thing is, Solarians don’t have any of...
Couple Notes:
1. The "One True" build you posted doesn't use either the Solar Armor *or* the Solar Weapon - Thus ignoring (completely) one of the main class features.
2. The modification to the Korasha Lashunta is also the human variant... Also you got the stats wrong, the Lashunta build is either:
16 Str, 12 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis 16 Cha
-or-
18 Str, 12 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 8 Wis 14 Cha
The human variant is:
16 Str, 12 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis 14 Cha
-or-
18 Str, 10 Dex, 10 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis 14 Cha
Both use Heavy Armor.
3. - Yup -
4. Mostly correct, but they don't need Advanced Weapon Prof - They get that by default. Also this doesn't need versatile specialization.
Drow:
Solar Armor
18 Str, 14 Dex, 8 Con, 10 Int, 10 Wis 12 Cha
Final stats end up being:
01: 18/14/08/10/10/12
05: 19/16/08/10/12/14
10: 20/18/10/10/14/14
15: 21/19/10/10/16/16
20: 22/20/10/10/18/18
PU: 26/26/12/10/18/18
(Build calls for Great Fortitude and Improved Fortitude)
Skittermander:
Solar Armor
18 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 08 Int, 10 Wis 12 Cha
Final stats end up being:
01: 18/14/10/08/10/12
05: 19/16/10/08/12/14
10: 20/18/12/08/14/14
15: 21/19/14/08/14/16
20: 22/20/16/08/16/18
PU: 26/26/16/08/16/20
(Build calls for a Pilot, 2 other skills, and the Fort and Will save feats.)
-----
Its not so much that you can't have multiple builds for Solarians, you can, it is that it is much harder to hit the benchmarks that the other classes can effortlessly reach in general.
They need to split their focus between Str, dex, Con, and Chr,
How come? CON isn't the big deal in SF that it is in Pathfinder and DEX only affects use of ranged weapons. Mechanically there's no reason for you to be worrying about min-maxing four different stats to do what you want.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
no they dont
they need either high str or dex
and a moderate cha
con is not very important in starfinder though a few points dont hurt.
mine frontlines just fine , had the highest ac in the party and averages better damage then the others.
a well done soldier will preform a bit better for damage under the right circumstances ..but they should
your right they dont do a light armored kung fu guy wel "though thats a class idea that the starfinder writers want to add in eventually from the q&a i watched" which is a class idea i want eventually either as an archtype or a new class.
the issue here seems to be less how good or not a soliarian is and more its not want you want them to be
Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
VampByDay wrote:
So what’s better, having a blade that does extra damage and the ability to charge as a standard action with no penalty, or turning all of that off for a round and then, the round after, being able to heal yourself?
...or staying in your current mode AND healing as a move action. Glow of Life just gives more healing if you are Photon attuned.
Revelations are set up to have two effects, the better one being when you are attuned to their mode. They can be used in the ‘wrong’ mode.
So what’s better, having a blade that does extra damage and the ability to charge as a standard action with no penalty, or turning all of that off for a round and then, the round after, being able to heal yourself?
...or staying in your current mode AND healing as a move action. Glow of Life just gives more healing if you are Photon attuned.
Revelations are set up to have two effects, the better one being when you are attuned to their mode. They can be used in the ‘wrong’ mode.
1) 1 true build- Some Str-boosting Race, blitz soldier 1, rest into weapon Solarian. Wears heavy armor
2) Korasha Lashunta Solarian, first feat heavy armor prof. 16 Str, 14/16 Charisma
3) Armor Solarian with high dex and first two feats are longarm prof (or sniper) and versatile specialization.
4) High dex, Charisma, and strength (Drow or skittermander), armor Solarian with first feat as advanced weapon prof, second as versatile specialization.
I couldn't disagree more with your builds. 1: Because I feel like blitz soldier/solarian is a joke. 2: I feel when these threads pop up everyone throws story telling out the door.
Why do you feel light armor is so bad? It's almost the same as heavy armor when considering dex.
Page 197-198
Highest light armor 22/22 +8 dex = 30/30
Highest heavy armor 26/27 +5 dex = 31/32
"But you have to spend points in dex to get it to max!" Looking at this mock up I just did it's doable even as a human.
Stats
I still just scratch my head on why this is still an issue and like jimthegray said,
jimthegray wrote:
ahh this thread again,
It's basically complaining that a class isn't as good as another class. Which is a black hole of shouting and people unmoving on their opinions. It's better to then talk into a mirror at that point.
All the angst about Solarians has really intrigued me, because I haven't had a chance to play one (though I should have) or get one into a game yet.
I really do have to wonder if most of the "problems" are coming from scenarios where by far their biggest asset, it seems to me -- being a fighter with spell-like powers which not only don't have to worry about spell slots, but become stronger as combat progresses -- isn't made useful or relevant. (It's much like I've noticed that there are some Themes that can struggle to become relevant depending on the available modes of play.)
Also, I look at statements like Tarik's above and I'm puzzled; what kind of build would a Solarian have to have for one or another of, say, being able to set things on fire when they hit you or heal 18 points of damage nearly on demand to be "dead weight"? Why are powers "jokes" if they're not focused on dealing damage?
Not... Quite...
There are some people who, for some reason, don't want to see the issues with Solarians. I expect that to pop up in this thread, I think at least one person did, who claim that they are fine because Solarians are supposed to be mechanically inferior to Soldiers in almost every way.
That... Well I disagree...
Anyway the problem is their "Biggest Asset" as you claim... Isn't that good.
I've run the math on virtually every power a Solarian can get through their class.
I mean, literally every single one, and while there are some that are super good (Not going to lie, a 3+ armed, either by Tech or by Race Solarian Gunner with Gravity Shield is pretty amazing for the cover they generate with Gravity Shield while Graviton Attuned...) most of them are... Meh at best...
Not to rehash the other thread, but it comes to this:
Detailed Breakdown:
Black Hole - Takes 3 rounds to do, gives very little benefit, can't be used to set up AoO's, has a small radius, requires a very high Cha to use, is thwarted if there is any object, no matter how small, between you and the target. The main use people think this has is to pull people out of cover... Which because they stop if they touch any object, you can't actually do, unless they are on the edge of cover AND you have to be able to get completely around the cover AND... Well you get the idea. This power is crap. Total, steaming, crap.
Dark Matter - Great, if you are Graviton Attuned, this is as much a staple to the ranged solarian as plasma sheath is to the melee.
Flare - Crap. It is great to a point, but since it can only blind someone for one round once every 10 minutes. Pass.
Gravity Anchor - Pseudo-Crap. Combat Maneuvers are already really hard to do. This is situationally useful at best and only if your GM frequently uses Combat Maneuvers.
Gravity Boost - Eh. This is nicer at higher levels for the Solarian who is low on cash. The ability to run up walls and stuff is cool. Outmodded by a Jet Pack or Jump Jets usually.
Gravity Hold - Ugh. Can only affect a target every 24 hours. Requires very high charisma to use, if the enemy saves you're boned. You have no way to raise your DC on this like a spellcaster can do with a feat either. Pass.
Plasma Sheath - Great. The staple of the Solarian Melee build.
Radiation - Terrible. Not only does any armor stop it from working, the enemy can clear it by stepping 1 square away from you. If they save against it, then they are immune to it for 24 hours. Even then it is only a -2 penalty. Why bother?
Stellar Rush - Amazing for any melee build. 10/10 would use again.
Astrological Sense - You can find uses for this. It is situational though. I am always on the fence because you can also get this, plus, and pull a great Jedi impression by taking the 3 Psychic Power feats.
Blazing Orbit - Crap. The damage, by the time you get this, is a joke. Some people mistake this for a good power by trying to make weird combinations that, unfortunately don't work. The biggest claim people make is that you can lay down a fire trail, then, potentially, use Black Hole to pull someone down it, thereby doing tremendous damage... In reality... Well Black Hole is trash... Also unlike other similar spells which specify that they take damage for each square, this doesn't say that. Meaning that if you drag them through 1, or 6, squares they only take the damage once. Since the damage is only 2d6 at 6, 3d6 at 8, 4d6 at 10... Up to 9d6 at 20... This is pathetically weak. Also you can't move through people's squares to force them to take damage, so they only get damaged by this usually if they choose to run through it.
Corona - The cold resistance is nice, the damage is really low, the bonus damage on offense is negated by even the smallest Fire Resistance. The ambient damage, for example, is literally negated by Fire Resistance 5. The damage you deal from them hitting you, for the level you get this, is a complete joke, especially since in order to deal this damage you have to take damage. The cold resistance can be useful though.
Crush - Garbage. This has the same problem as most Solarian powers. Once it works, or the opponent saves against it, they become immune to it. For a class that is supposed to be about on demand powers these powers are so limited in how often they can be used in an encounter that it becomes frustrating, this also forces you to hyper-buff Charisma *and* unlike spells, again, you can't buff the DC with a feat. Pass.
Defy Gravity - Semi-Good. Here is the skinny on this one. You can't use it to fly and attack. If you attack in mid flight, unless you take specific feats, you fall before you can attack, but after you finish movement. A jet pack is better. This is a limited version of flight that can be usually simulated by a cheap armor upgrade. Useful if you use it in combination with something that lets you stick to walls and use guns though.
Glow of Life - Once a battle HP recovery. Nice. Sadly it also costs Resolve to use, then resolve to regain, so if you plan on using it twice in one day you're spending a minimum of 3 Resolve. 5 if you want to use it 3 times a day. Ouch. Emergency use only.
Gravity Surge - Suffers from the same issue of having to pump Charisma as the others. This does allow you to trip and/or disarm from range though and gives you a +4 to do it. Not bad. Too bad it doesn't stack with the feats. Still this one, the disarm property especially, has uses. Too bad it also eats a full round action.
Hypnotic Glow - Ugh. Many people have no idea how this works and think, "It is just like charm!" It isn't. It is limited in how many targets you can have under your charm, if you are in combat they get a massive save bonus, if they save, or once you smack them with it, you can't try it again for 24 hours, and until you are level 9 it only works on humanoids. Just... Generally not good.
Reflection - If you didn't have to be fighting defensively and spend resolve, of if you full defense to use this it would be nice. As it is the feat version is simply better and more useful in general. There is a use for this though, again, situationally. I have used it once to great effect in a test. Entering a corridor with a bunch of automatic turrets I was able to go total defense, attune graviton, and reflect all of the shots into each cannon in turn... Because you don't have to spend resolve if you take full defense. If the Solarian had some way to make everyone on a battlefield attack them, this could be great, also the reflection range is only 30 feet. If you can get that close, you can just attack them. Note: That to pull that trick off also required Ultimate Graviton.
Soul Furnace - Some of the same issues as Glow of Life, costs resolve to use, so while you can theoretically use it every time you regain Stamina, it costs you a Resolve to use it, however since Solarians tend to lag behind other classes in saves by a small margin (unless they ignore int) this can be very useful, especially since status effects are less frequent than damage. This is a keeper.
Stealth Warp - +4 bonus to stealth, under the right circumstances you can hide in plain sight, not as good as what an Operative can just do... But not bad. Useful, but not great.
Gravity Shield - Amazing for a Solar Armor Solarian in Graviton mode. 10/10 if you have a 3rd arm to hold it up.
Sunbolt - This one is the one Solarian revelation that just (censors) me off. Like this one just makes me mad. 9d6 Fire damage, it is a laser, you shoot from your hand. I want to like this one. I want to like this one so much... BUT... 9d6 just isn't a ton of damage at level 10 and it doesn't scale... And it can only be used once before you make a 10 minute rest. 9d6 damage is around 30-31 damage... At level 10 this is a drop in the bucket. The only time you would need this is in a protracted long range fire fight, and 1 shot every 10 minutes... Just is bad. A combat rifle does 3d8, so a Full Attack with a Combat Rifle gets to 6d8 if it hits... And you can do it over and over again... Just... Darn it Sunbolt. If this could be used once a turn, as a standard action, this would be one of the best weapons in the game for Solarians. Sadly, it isn't.
Ultimate Graviton/Ultimate Photon - Good, to a point. If Ultimate Graviton did the "lasts for 1d4 rounds" thing it would be much better. Though these are both good if they augment powers you use often.
The Zenith Revelations fair far better... The shining ones are Solar Acceleration, Wormhole, and Ray of Light (for an "Oh (censored) I need to get outta here!" move.) being the big three.
To answer your specific questions:
what kind of build would a Solarian have to have for one or another of, say, being able to set things on fire when they hit you
No Solarian can do this without a weapon crystal and rolling a crit. None of the Solarian powers let you set someone on fire every time you hit them.
heal 18 points of damage nearly on demand to be "dead weight"?
A level 6 power that heals Solarian Level x 2 HP, in a game that has much higher damage than you'd expect... Lemme 'splain.
A level 6 Solarian with this power, that is shot by a level 6 longrifle for average damage... (2d8+LevelF = 2d8+6f (+1d6f on a crit) will take an average of 15 damage. They will recover 12 damage. Thus, they don't even heal 1 attack worth of damage on average once every 10 minutes if they spend a resolve point and spend a move action.) so not only is this not "on demand" it is a losing proposition.
To contrast, a mystic cure with a level 1 spell slot, on a 20 Wisdom Mystic, who isn't a dedicated Healer, will heal you for 1d8+5, which will get you almost the exact same on an average roll, and they can use it far more than once every 10 minutes... If they spend a 2nd level slot, they'll cure you for 3d8+5 which is WAY higher than you can do.
Heck, Inspiring Boost (level 1 Envoy) from a level 6 Envoy (equal to when you can do this at the earliest) without spending a Resolve Point with an 18 Charisma (Which is low at this level) can, once every 10 minutes, give you back 16 Stamina, if they DO spend a Resolve you'd get back 24 Stamina.
You can increase this to 3x Solarian level if you are Photon Attuned, but even then 18 HP is barely more than 1 attack worth of damage.
So when a 6th level spell ability is barely keeping up with level 1 spells, and level 1 abilities, and has a resolve cost? That is not anywhere near as good as you seem to think. Or in short... If a Solarian COULD heal 18 "on demand" and/or could light people on fire with each hit then we wouldn't feel like the class had issues... They CAN'T do those things though.
Edit: Fixed a little bit of math, cleaned up formatting, added some bolding, fixed some grammar, generally made it a little easier to read.
I don't personally see the point of comparing an ability that heals HP damage with abilities that heal SP as if this were the same thing, or comparing an ability that can be used multiple times daily (with Resolve Point spend, yes, but still) with abilities that require spell slot use.
I guess more basically I don't understand why there's an obsession with what the Solarian is doing relative to other classes as if the game were a combat simulator where the point is statistically outperforming everyone else, which is what these threads seem to boil down to in the end. Meh. Chalk me up as someone who "for some reason" doesn't get this. Maybe I'll feel different if I get the chance to play one, I'll see.
Guys, guys, I may have gotten a few of the details wrong, but my two main points still remain.
1)To make a ‘solvent’ or useful Solarian, you have to fit into one of a few very specific builds.
2) None of those builds let you play what Paizo has presented as an ‘iconic’ Solarian. That is to say, none of them are good at being a lightly-armored frontliner. I would very much like to play one of them, but instead of playing a Jedi, magus, or a monk or any of a million other things, your choices are either ‘sniper with a feat tax to get longarm/sniper proficiency,’ or ‘Master chief who can make his own his plasma sword,’ also with a feat tax. And both of those can be done better by other classes, such a operative/Exocortex mechanic for A, and soldier for B (only he has to buy his sword.)
I want to play the iconic style Solarian, but it doesn’t pan out mechanically.
Most classes can do what they are meant to do out of the gate without a feat. Soldiers can fight, envoys can talk/skill monkey, mechanics can fight/skill monkey, technomancer s and mystics can cast spells. Operatives can do a little of everything. Solarians just can’t claim that, and I really wish they could.
Gravity Hold - Ugh. Can only affect a target every 24 hours. Requires very high charisma to use, if the enemy saves you're boned. You have no way to raise your DC on this like a spellcaster can do with a feat either. Pass.
Question. Why do you homebrew some things but not others? Are you using your character for Starfinder Society? Seems like Spell Focus would be a good thing to change saying if you have an ability that has a DC you can use it.
Guys, guys, I may have gotten a few of the details wrong, but my two main points still remain.
Well if you got a few things wrong your main points might not hold up. I think the best thing to do it build a Solarian.
VampByDay wrote:
I want to play the iconic style Solarian, but it doesn’t pan out mechanically.
Build one and post it and we can all discuss. Don't minmax. Just build a regular Solarian like how you would like to play one and we can see where it lacks.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
still not sure why you think that there supposed to be a lightly-armored frontliner, that has as far as i know never been mentioned by paizo.
its certainly not an iconic take on the class unless you literally mean the poorly made premade iconic.
now you could make a light armored melee solarian, go solor armor and use good melee weapons, you will be a little less ac then a heavy armor one, but have better low level damage.
but i personally like takign heavy armor to make stats a little better
Guys, guys, I may have gotten a few of the details wrong, but my two main points still remain.
1)To make a ‘solvent’ or useful Solarian, you have to fit into one of a few very specific builds.
2) None of those builds let you play what Paizo has presented as an ‘iconic’ Solarian. That is to say, none of them are good at being a lightly-armored frontliner. I would very much like to play one of them, but instead of playing a Jedi, magus, or a monk or any of a million other things, your choices are either ‘sniper with a feat tax to get longarm/sniper proficiency,’ or ‘Master chief who can make his own his plasma sword,’ also with a feat tax. And both of those can be done better by other classes, such a operative/Exocortex mechanic for A, and soldier for B (only he has to buy his sword.)
I want to play the iconic style Solarian, but it doesn’t pan out mechanically.
I play a light-armored front liner in Society play.
I have a Human, with Solar Armor and 14 Str/14 Dex/11 Con/10 Int/10 Wis/14 Cha stats.
At 1st level I had +4 to hit, 1d8+2 damage with 10 foot reach (tactical pike), EAC/KAC 14/16, 40 foot move speed, 3 Resolve. For 3 fights a day, this is sufficient resolve (2 to recover stamina from the 1st two fights, 1 to stabilize in the 3rd). Saves are +2/+2/+2. Modes either add +1 damage or +1 to Ref saves. On the 3rd turn of combat, it generally ends with a 2d6+1 supernova (DC 12). I have social skills plus Mysticism and Sense Motive. He has acted as the Captain in the 2 ship combats he's been in.
At 2nd level its gotten even better with the ability to walk on the ceiling (Climbing Suckers) and standard action charges. In ships with 15 foot high ceilings, its basically a free AoO each turn. I'm not sure how much more mobile and running all over the place you can get while in light armor at 2nd level. Its damage output and AC have proven to be more than sufficient.
This is basically my versatile build from my generic Solarian guide. That guide also has a solar revelation focused build with maxed Charisma. Which are 2 more build types to bring the total to 6 or so.
Out of curiosity, how many distinct Operative build types do you see as viable, using the same description method you've used for Solarian. I basically see 18 Dex, use a small arm or operative melee weapon in light armor.
Gravity Hold - Ugh. Can only affect a target every 24 hours. Requires very high charisma to use, if the enemy saves you're boned. You have no way to raise your DC on this like a spellcaster can do with a feat either. Pass.
Question. Why do you homebrew some things but not others? Are you using your character for Starfinder Society? Seems like Spell Focus would be a good thing to change saying if you have an ability that has a DC you can use it.
Home Brewing works when I am the GM. It doesn't help me if I want to play. Some GMs might use my own homebrew rules, but these are issues with the game that exist, not things that I can hand wave fix.
I actually have a homebrew Solarian that replaces the Solarian as an option in my home game already for players. It doesn't fix the issues with the game.
I have retooled virtually every single Solarian power to make them better and/or more useful.
Homebrew Content:
Black Hole - Can pull people through/over Partial Cover, their movement is only stopped by something that would grant full cover. Always moves a target (no save) on a failed save the target cannot leave the square they are pulled to for 1d4 combat rounds.
Dark Matter - No change.
Flare - Removed the 10 minute limiter.
Gravity Anchor - Increased the benefit to +8 from +4.
Gravity Boost - If attuned or fully attuned this allows you stand in place on the wall as per Spider Climb, no need to hold on.
Gravity Hold - Removed the "once every 24 hour" limiter.
Plasma Sheath - No change.
Radiation - Now affects people through armor, also once sickened it stays on until the target saves, even if they move away. They do not get an immunity timer. They must save every round they are in range at the end of their turn.
Stellar Rush - No change.
Astrological Sense - Removed the "Spend 1 Resolve" to use it more than 1/Day.
Blazing Orbit - If photon attuned this now DOES allow you to pass through a target's square to hit them with it (requires Acrobatics as normal) and the damage increases to 1/2 Solarian level d6 damage.
Corona - Whenever a person uses Corona hits a target with a non-reach melee attack, they add the damage from the Corona to their attack's damage. So if they would normally deal 2d6 damage to a target if they were struck in melee by them, they now deal 2d6 damage if they are struck in melee, but also they deal an additional +2d6f damage if they strike someone in melee while it is active.
Crush - Removed the immunity timer.
Defy Gravity - Altered, once they can maintain it by spending a move action, I altered the text to read, "As long as they spend a move action during their next turn" they remain flying.
Glow of Life - Altered, this acts as normal (without needing to spend a resolve) if a resolve is spent, this can be done as a reaction.
Gravity Surge - Altered, this can be used with the feats.
Hypnotic Glow - Altered, removed the immunity timer if the target doesn't save.
Reflection - Altered, if the target fights full defense and spends a resolve point, they can attempt to deflect every attack that is directed at them. If they are in Ultimate Graviton they get this benefit without spending a resolve.
Soul Furnace - Altered, this no longer costs a resolve to use.
Stealth Warp - The bonus is now equal to 1/2 your Solarian Level. This allows stealth Solarians to actually overcome Stealth Operatives.
Gravity Shield - The gravity shield now lasts until it is turned off regardless of if the person is attuned or not. They may only do the big shield if attuned, if attuned they do not need a free hand to control it.
Sunbolt - This may now be fired once a turn as a standard action.
Ultimate Graviton/Photon - No changes aside from where noted.
Sunbolt - This may now be fired once a turn as a standard action.
One sec. So the Solarian gains Sunbolt at level 10. Sunbolt deals 9d6 fire damage and has no cool down? So basically I don't have to pull out my solar weapon until lvl 17 since at lvl 10 the solar weapon only does 3d6... Basically you created a spacemonk that shoots unlimited hadoukens.
I think they put a limit on it for that reason, right?
HWalsh wrote:
Gravity Shield - The gravity shield now lasts until it is turned off regardless of if the person is attuned or not. They may only do the big shield if attuned, if attuned they do not need a free hand to control it.
Is it still active if the Solarian gets knocked out?
you're forgetting the increased damage of using a solarian weapon crystal to add to the solar weapon as well as: plasma sheath, photon mode attunement, strength modifier, and weapon specialization
Sunbolt - This may now be fired once a turn as a standard action.
One sec. So the Solarian gains Sunbolt at level 10. Sunbolt deals 9d6 fire damage and has no cool down? So basically I don't have to pull out my solar weapon until lvl 17 since at lvl 10 the solar weapon only does 3d6... Basically you created a spacemonk that shoots unlimited hadoukens.
I think they put a limit on it for that reason, right?
Not quite.
Mechanically a Solar Weapon at level 10 can do 3d6 base, plus Solarian Weapon Crystal +1d6 - +2d6, in addition to that is Weapon Specialization and Strength.
9d6+2 for Photon = 33-34 damage on average.
4d6 +5(Plasma Sheath) +6(Typical Str bonus at this level) +10(Weapon Spec) is an average damage of 4d6+21 or 35 damage and the Solar Weapon can full attack.
Even a 3d6 Rifle does 3d6+12 at this level with a Solarian, which is an average of 22-23 damage per shot, and can full attack.
Jet Set Radio wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
Gravity Shield - The gravity shield now lasts until it is turned off regardless of if the person is attuned or not. They may only do the big shield if attuned, if attuned they do not need a free hand to control it.
Is it still active if the Solarian gets knocked out?
No. Generally it is assumed in my game if you get KO'ed your powers shut down.
Did you homebrew that you can select Sunbolt at 10? I was just reading it, and in CRB you can select it at 14.
At 14, a solarian weapon now does 6d6+specialization+strength+Plasma sheath...so you might want to keep that weapon handy even if you're able to shoot sunbolts once a round now.
I've watched a Solarian play next to an optimized Vesk melee soldier through 4 levels, and as their support Envy, I've been paying attention.
They contribute equally, with lower Resolve being the only notable lack.
While the Solarian does wear heavy armor, he has a lot more mobility, which seems to fit the iconic feel. This mobility has allowed him to contribute as much as the Soldier, especially since tactics & positioning are more important in SF than PF. And then he has the finishing move of exploding, which doesn't occur that much due to how quickly both eliminate their foes, but has been great in the tougher battles. A second Soldier would not be contributing as much to the party, and that's not counting the noncombat contributions, such as aiding my face skills.
And since at least one of the more vocal anti-Solarian number crunchers here has a basic math error in their post...I think I'll go with my XP.
Did you homebrew that you can select Sunbolt at 10? I was just reading it, and in CRB you can select it at 14.
At 14, a solarian weapon now does 6d6+specialization+strength+Plasma sheath...so you might want to keep that weapon handy even if you're able to shoot sunbolts once a round now.
Nah no homebrew there, just a faulty memory. I'm kind of multitasking at the moment.
I've watched a Solarian play next to an optimized Vesk melee soldier through 4 levels, and as their support Envy, I've been paying attention.
They contribute equally, with lower Resolve being the only notable lack.
While the Solarian does wear heavy armor, he has a lot more mobility, which seems to fit the iconic feel. This mobility has allowed him to contribute as much as the Soldier, especially since tactics & positioning are more important in SF than PF. And then he has the finishing move of exploding, which doesn't occur that much due to how quickly both eliminate their foes, but has been great in the tougher battles. A second Soldier would not be contributing as much to the party, and that's not counting the noncombat contributions, such as aiding my face skills.
And since at least one of the more vocal anti-Solarian number crunchers here has a basic math error in their post...I think I'll go with my XP.
Basic math errors happen when you're doing multiple things at once. Mis-remembering the level doesn't actually hurt the argument on the attack though... It helps it.
The average damage of the blast is comperable to a single level 10 attack, which you can't get until level 14, and can only use once a day.
At low levels a Solarian *can* keep up, and they can *stay* keeping up. I wrote the Solarian Melee Guide and more or less the Heavy Armored Melee Solarian *is* one of (if not the) most viable Solarian build. It totally can keep up with the Soldier.
The issue is that it is one of a narrow field that works right, not that it can't work.
If the Solarian goes 16 Strength to Start, or 18 strength, he will keep up with a melee Soldier, on par being a slight bit ahead of him in damage at all times. This will battle back and forth a bit in the mid tier.
A 26 Strength level 20 Melee Solarian has the same full attack hit chance a 28 Strength level 20 melee Soldier has. The damage will usually be close to approximate, fluxuating based on how many enemies are near the Soldier at any given time.
Since you mentioned your melee guide I thought it's worth mentioning that there is a general solarian guide out now that offers multiple build options, including ones that do not focus on melee. :)
The example stat blocks in particular are very handy. =)
One thing I'd like to point out is that blazing orbit is being sold short here. In addition to the initial damage that it does (which granted isn't great) it will ALSO apply the burning condition if you are attuned for 1d6 extra damage the next round, and potentially more (the DC's to stop the burning aren't high only 10+1d6 but it can happen to those with poor reflex saves and/or bad luck; either way you still take the initial 1d6 extra), AND you gain concealment during the move. Combine this with mobility and you are very VERY hard to hit when you use this to move around enemies, plus you probably have stellar rush already so you can still charge as your standard. This is actually very nice.
I feel like there's a lot of abilities that are being neglected when considering the solarian's power overall and it's becoming the damage Olympics with the soldier. The value of non quantifiable things often gets ignored.
Since you mentioned your melee guide I thought it's worth mentioning that there is a general solarian guide out now that offers multiple build options, including ones that do not focus on melee. :)
The example stat blocks in particular are very handy. =)
I'm quite aware.
Mine came out a few weeks before that one did. Mine was focused on a type, rather than a generalization.
There are marked differences between the two over time. I don't find the general as useful to me to be honest.
There are marked differences between the two over time. I don't find the general as useful to me to be honest.
That's a shame, I quite like it. It's refreshing to have someone review an ability with more than one build in mind - one ability may be lackluster for one character but quite interesting for another. :)
There are marked differences between the two over time. I don't find the general as useful to me to be honest.
That's a shame, I quite like it. It's refreshing to have someone review an ability with more than one build in mind - one ability may be lackluster for one character but quite interesting for another. :)
I wonder why you seem to be taking veiled shots at me. Regardless, no I mean I fully respect the other guide. It has some views. I analyzed some parts of it for the Ranged Solarian Guide I'm working on. That was how I came up with one of the more potent combinations for ranged solarians.
The Solarian Turret is quite fun and unique, it isn't as damaging as the Soldier, and with enough WBL a Soldier can do something similar to it, but a character that can stand upside down of a roof behind a shield while blasting away at people is really really nice.
The biggest problem with the Solarian is that the people who are trying to ardently defend the Soldier and insist the Solarian is fine REALLY don't understand how the Solarian works.
I have had these debates... People arguing that Hypnotic Glow can end encounters by being used against every target... Only for me to have to point out the percentages of how that power works, the penalty for trying to use it like that, and then pointing out that you can only affect one person at any given time for a limited number of rounds.
Or the arguments regarding Radiation, where they didn't realize the person could just take 1 step away and get out of it.
Or the people with Black Hole who didn't know that you can't use Black Hole to yank people out of cover unless the cover isn't intervening between you and them because the Black Hole write up says it goes through cover, but then also says if anything is in the way they don't move.
I've tried every single power and every single combination of powers. I have run the numbers, posted percentages, and yes, the Solarian is designed to work in one of four modes. Heavy armored melee. Light armored melee. Ranged graviton. Or a very weird switch hitter that I haven't quite gotten to properly work yet.
Some powers are just outright bad. It isn't a matter of perspective. It is a matter of they are less than 30% likely to work without a very specific build and if you use that build you are forced to be ranged combat or you cannot keep up.
I know exactly how you feel, I've had similar problems discussing operatives. :(
The way I see it is that the system is still quite new, people learn at different speeds, and there's a lot of rules to get through - most people won't get everything just right on the first pass. It doesn't help that Starfinder has a design that's counter-intuitive at times (like how operatives start off with both skill focus and operative's edge, both abilities grant insight bonuses to the same skills), which can easily lead to some confusion.
These things will get better as people play and get more comfortable with the rules system. In the meantime, I try to be patient, try to understand the other side's perspective, and always try to stay positive. If I resort to sarcasm, ridicule or dismissal it's likely just going to make whoever I'm talking to more entrenched in his position - rather than listening to my arguments, he will focus only on my tone. That path typically leads to arguing rather than a healthy discussion. :(
HWalsh wrote:
Some powers are just outright bad. It isn't a matter of perspective. It is a matter of they are less than 30% likely to work without a very specific build and if you use that build you are forced to be ranged combat or you cannot keep up.
It's hard to say for sure without knowing which power you're talking about, but I'm not sure I'd consider it a problem that some powers are clearly intended for ranged solarians. To borrow from the soldier, the Bullet Barrage gear boost is underwhelming for a melee soldier and the Melee Striker gear boost is extremely bad for a 10-str range-focused soldier. Yet both gear boosts have their own niche and are popular picks.
On the other hand, some solarian powers are definitely underwhelming in general. Sunbolt for example.
Could you be more specific about what solarian powers you struggle with?
Or the arguments regarding Radiation, where they didn't realize the person could just take 1 step away and get out of it.
While I agree with your assessments of Black Hole (cover is going to prevent movement if the character would be pulled into the cover square) and Hypnotic Glow (unlikely to end combat, more useful out of combat), I'm going to have to point out that while Photon attuned, Radiation has a 10 foot aura, not a 5 foot aura. Also Ultimate Photon will increase that another 10 feet, to 15 feet for 1d4 rounds out of Photon mode, or 20 feet in Photon mode.
So depending on situation, it could take a minimum of between 1 to 4 five foot steps to get out of the effect. :)
Or the arguments regarding Radiation, where they didn't realize the person could just take 1 step away and get out of it.
While I agree with your assessments of Black Hole (cover is going to prevent movement if the character would be pulled into the cover square) and Hypnotic Glow (unlikely to end combat, more useful out of combat), I'm going to have to point out that while Photon attuned, Radiation has a 10 foot aura, not a 5 foot aura. Also Ultimate Photon will increase that another 10 feet, to 15 feet for 1d4 rounds out of Photon mode, or 20 feet in Photon mode.
So depending on situation, it could take a minimum of between 1 to 4 five foot steps to get out of the effect. :)
Yeah but you need level 16 to get Ultimate Photon.
Either way once they save, it is done, and they cannot be affected again for another 24 hours.
Could you be more specific about what solarian powers you struggle with?
Almost all of them that are "One and done"
Namely, you can't buff the DC to resist with a feat, like a spellcaster.
You don't have enough uses of "spells" especially at low levels to hyper-pump your Charisma and still be effective. In fact if you hyper pump charisma to start with an 18 you are going to have a VERY not fun 1st level.
Almost everyone recommends a 14, my guide only goes for a 16 for a Lashunta and even I admit it isn't a good idea to do.
So if you have a 14... Let us see your chance of affecting a CR 1/2 at level 2.
I'm using level 2, because at level 1 you don't get to pick anything, it is just Supernova and Black Hole.
I'll throw it in here anyway.
DCs = 10 + Solarian Level + Charisma Bonus
Level 1 - Save DC - 13
Level 2 - Save DC - 14
Level 3 - Save DC - 15
Level 4 - Save DC - 16
Level 5 - Save DC - 18 (if Charisma is raised to 16)
Supernova has a 55% chance to deal 1d6 divided by 2 damage at level 1.
If you take Radiation at level 2, vs a CR 1 enemy, you have a 50% chance to turn it on, affect someone for 1 round, and a 50% chance they save out and are immune. They are immune that is it. Your 1 use revelation is gone.
This is the same with Flare to blind. You can blind for 1 round. Which will mess someone up... For one round... Then that is it. If it even works, either way, you can't affect them again.
Even if you go to level 4 and pick 2 different one and dones... You wind up in the same problem. Against a CR 3, they get a +5, meaning, they roll a 10... 55% chance... And your spell fails and that is it.
The only way to make it above a 55% chance is to pump your Charisma... But, again, you do that and you don't have the points to fight.
So... You have choices...
Do you want low level, low chance abilities that may work for 1 round, if at all... Or do you want something that you can actually re-use? Say, Stellar Rush...
Of course, you want Stellar Rush, thus you want melee. Thus you can't pump your Charisma.
It is a matter of logistics. You don't get enough early revelations for you to risk making a "Caster"
So, the people who go, "No! You should take (insert 1 and done)!"
Well.. You can... But it has a better than average chance of failing outright and once it does... That is it. You need a Charisma of 16 to get a 50% chance usually against an enemy 1 CR below you.
What happens when you run into a boss?
Something 2 CR above you?
Eep.
A level 2 Solarian trying to Affect a level 4 boss? The boss passes on an 8 or better. That is a 65% chance of success. You have a 35% chance of failure. Hence why the Solarian Caster Path isn't viable. You NEVER have enough revelations with a high enough success chance to do it and still be effective.
There is *one* exception to this.
A Ranged Solarian, who doesn't need Strength, can make it at least not catastrophic to try.
This is vs a Real Caster... Who has 10 +Spell Level +Caster Stat +Spell Focus.
Typically at level 1 this is 10 +1 +4 +1 = DC 16
CR 1/3 needs a 15
CR 1/2 needs a 14
CR 1 needs a 13
CR 2 needs a 12
CR 3 needs a 11
CR 4 needs a 10
And you see the issue... If they drop a Level 2 spell the DC goes up. They have a much higher chance and more uses. You get 1 shot. If it fails? Done. It also tends to only slow them down for 1 round. In Pathfinder that would have been amazing. 1 round is make or break. In Starfinder? Combat is much slower meaning 1 round is far less important.
Hm... Interesting. I don't have time to discuss each power's value with you right now, but I feel I should note that Solarian save DCs will actually scale pretty well since Solarian DCs increase every two levels. Spellcaster DCs typically increase every 3 levels (with a new level of spell learned), and only when they cast their highest level spell. Since they get a pretty limited amount of highest-level spells per day, most of the time they're going to be using lower level spells with correspondingly lower spell DCs.
Let's do a few comparisons.
Assumptions:
I'll assume the solarian starts with cha 14 and puts his second personal upgrade into charisma. The Technomancer starts with int 16 and puts his first personal upgrade into intelligence. Both characters increase their casting stat on levels 5, 10 and 15. The Technomancer will be casting a level 2 spell on 5, level 4 spell on 10, and level 5 spell on 15. Finally, I'll assume the Technomancer picks up Spell Focus at level 6. Note that Spell Focus grants a +2 bonus from level 11 onwards, that'll be added to the level 15 DCs.
The Solarian's Cha progression would be: base 14 +2 from leveling for a cha of 16 at level 5. He gets a second +2 from leveling and picks up a +2 personal upgrade for a cha of 20 at level 10. He gets a +1 from leveling and an additional +2 personal upgrade for a cha of 23 at level 15.
The Technomancer's Int progression would be: Base 16 +2 from leveling and picks up a +2 personal upgrade for an int of 20 at level 5. He gets a +1 from leveling and an additional +2 personal upgrade for an int of 23 at level 10. He gets another +1 from leveling and an additional +2 personal upgrade for an int of 26 at level 15.
Finally, note that all the DCs assume the Technomancer is using his highest level spell. If he runs out and has to use his lower level spells, his DCs drop accordingly.
Save DC Comparisons
At level 5:
Level 5 Solarian: DC 15.
Level 5 Technomancer: DC 17.
At level 10:
Level 10 Solarian: DC 20.
Level 10 Technomancer: DC 21.
At level 15:
Level 15 Solarian: DC 23.
Level 15 Technomancer: DC 25.
The Solarian is definitely trailing here, but I wouldn't call it critical. It's worth noting that since Spell Focus goes up to a +2 on level 11, his DCs are pretty consistently 2 lower than the technomancer.
So what can we change? How can we make it better?
The Solarian could start with 16 CHA, if so increase his save DC by 1 on level 5 and 15. He could also move his primary ability boost to charisma, if so increase his save DC by 1 on level 5, 10 and 15.
The Technomancer could instead start with 18 INT, if so increase his save DC by 1 at level 10. He could also learn spell focus earlier than 6, if so increase his save DC by 1 at level 5.
If we made all of the changes suggested above it would look like this:
Level 5 Solarian: DC 17
Level 5 Technomancer: DC 19
Level 10 Solarian: 22
Level 10 Technomancer: DC 22
Level 15 Solarian: DC 25
Level 15 Technomancer: DC 25
It seems like Solarian save DCs start off poor at low levels, in part because their superior scaling hasn't kicked in yet and in part because the point buy spreads them thin until they catch up, but if built right their save DCs can be pretty competitive.
Now I wonder what an base 18 Cha Solarian that focuses on debuffs and conditions would play like... I'm guessing it would play more like an envoy, less focused on damage and more on handing out buffs to the players and debuffs to his enemies. Might be fun to try and put one together.
To answer questions, I say the iconic Solarian is supposed to be lightly armored because A) They don't start off with heavy armor, B) their armor version does not work with heavy armor, and C) Altronus (the iconic Solarian) doesn't wear heavy armor.
Secondly: for "I may have gotten a few of the details wrong" I meant "I may have not allocated stats correctly when I was saying how Melee solarians should be made."
Thirdly: Okay if I got my druthers to play a solarian character, I'd go one of two ways: I could go either armor or weapon.
So if I start with armor, then I get a pair of Bone Cestuses, and use that for my 'unarmed strikes.' +4 to hit for 1d6+3 at first level.
My armor would be 14 or 15 at level 1
If I went weapon, then I'd have some sort of aura that surrounds me, that empowers my 'unarmed strikes.' Damage would be the same at first level though I wouldn't have to buy a weapon) and my armor would be one less.
Looking at my general build, my AC would be roughly on par with the Iconic Solarian Altronus (maybe one better, or 2 if i was the armor solarian) So by level 8 I'd have an EAC of 21/22/23, and a KAC of 22/23/24. Let's just compare that to the other frontliner, Obozaya, who has an EAC of 26, and a KAC of 29, that's a difference of between 3 and 5 AC. She would get hit a lot less than me.
In fact, looking at the combatant array from the back of alien archives, the primary attack of a combatant should be +21. That means enemies would have to roll a 1 to miss my EAC, and at best a 2 to miss my KAC. And while Obozaya's not leagues better, a two at least misses her EAC, and a 7 misses her KAC. You simply can't frontline if you are being hit with EVERY SINGLE ATTACK.
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HWalsh wrote:
Supernova has a 55% chance to deal 1d6 divided by 2 damage at level 1.
If you take Radiation at level 2, vs a CR 1 enemy, you have a 50% chance to turn it on, affect someone for 1 round, and a 50% chance they save out and are immune. They are immune that is it. Your 1 use revelation is gone.
In both these cases, it is everyone within 10’ of you. A lot of battles are against more than one opponent.
Supernova doesn’t go off until the third round of battle, but you can move for position and then set it off. Should be able to get at least two, possibly three opponents in it. Even if it is a 50% chance individually, that is only a 12.5% chance (.5 * .5 * .5) of all of them making the save.
Radiation you could bring up at the start of battle. Activate it and then move up to multiple creatures. It was noted that you could actually inoculate your team against it —use it on them at the beginning of the day and they are immune the rest of the day. Get multiple creatures approaching you, they each have to make the save. Not every creature is going to make it, and any that fail are now much less effective and more susceptible to other effects —such as a Mind Thrust from a friendly mystic.
As for the one use and the revelation being gone, that is also an exaggeration. If you stay in Photon mode, it continues to operate. That mode already gives a bonus to damage, so staying in the mode isn’t a bad thing. Any creature approaching you needs to save.
Based on what I’ve seen, the battles against multiple opponents are much more common than those against a single opponent. Although these powers may not be very effective against the big boss, they will work against the minions that surround them.
Supernova has a 55% chance to deal 1d6 divided by 2 damage at level 1.
If you take Radiation at level 2, vs a CR 1 enemy, you have a 50% chance to turn it on, affect someone for 1 round, and a 50% chance they save out and are immune. They are immune that is it. Your 1 use revelation is gone.
In both these cases, it is everyone within 10’ of you. A lot of battles are against more than one opponent.
Supernova doesn’t go off until the third round of battle, but you can move for position and then set it off. Should be able to get at least two, possibly three opponents in it. Even if it is a 50% chance individually, that is only a 12.5% chance (.5 * .5 * .5) of all of them making the save.
Radiation you could bring up at the start of battle. Activate it and then move up to multiple creatures. It was noted that you could actually inoculate your team against it —use it on them at the beginning of the day and they are immune the rest of the day. Get multiple creatures approaching you, they each have to make the save. Not every creature is going to make it, and any that fail are now much less effective and more susceptible to other effects —such as a Mind Thrust from a friendly mystic.
As for the one use and the revelation being gone, that is also an exaggeration. If you stay in Photon mode, it continues to operate. That mode already gives a bonus to damage, so staying in the mode isn’t a bad thing. Any creature approaching you needs to save.
Based on what I’ve seen, the battles against multiple opponents are much more common than those against a single opponent. Although these powers may not be very effective against the big boss, they will work against the minions that surround them.
1 and done meaning once they save they become immune. It doesn't reapply after that. Nor does it work on people in armor.
So if you're surrounded by four people, you pop it, 2 save, 2 fail... Those 2 that saved are clear. Immune. Keep the power going but they're immune.
Round 2. 1 fails 1 succeeds. Round 3 they're all out and you can't affect any of them anymore.
So if you're surrounded by four people, you pop it, 2 save, 2 fail... Those 2 that saved are clear. Immune. Keep the power going but they're immune.
Round 2. 1 fails 1 succeeds. Round 3 they're all out and you can't affect any of them anymore.
Not really. Round 3, you have a 50% chance to still have 1 of them affected, assuming he has a 50% chance to make the save. That means 25% of the time you still affect him on round 4.
Assuming you didn't start the combat surrounded by enemies, and you used your power in round 2 after moving and doing whatever in first round, we are talking about 4 to 5 rounds of combat. How long does your average combat take?
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gustavo iglesias wrote:
HWalsh wrote:
So if you're surrounded by four people, you pop it, 2 save, 2 fail... Those 2 that saved are clear. Immune. Keep the power going but they're immune.
Round 2. 1 fails 1 succeeds. Round 3 they're all out and you can't affect any of them anymore.
Not really. Round 3, you have a 50% chance to still have 1 of them affected, assuming he has a 50% chance to make the save. That means 25% of the time you still affect him on round 4.
Assuming you didn't start the combat surrounded by enemies, and you used your power in round 2 after moving and doing whatever in first round, we are talking about 4 to 5 rounds of combat. How long does your average combat take?
I don’t care if they are immune after one successful save. If things go well, I am only fighting those opponents once anyways.
It is still an open question on if armor protects against this supernatural radiation. If it does, that certainly reduces the utility of it.
Now on to the next round.
They are at -2 to save, so it is only a 40% chance of saving. The chances of them both missing is about one in three (.6*.6=.36, 36% chance) but the chance of them both making it is also poor (.4*.4=.16, 16% chance).
They are at -2 damage until they leave or save.
Provided armor doesn’t completely protect them and they are not immune to poison, it is a fair debuff against multiple opponents. Just don’t expect it to work on the big boss.
So if you're surrounded by four people, you pop it, 2 save, 2 fail... Those 2 that saved are clear. Immune. Keep the power going but they're immune.
Round 2. 1 fails 1 succeeds. Round 3 they're all out and you can't affect any of them anymore.
Not really. Round 3, you have a 50% chance to still have 1 of them affected, assuming he has a 50% chance to make the save. That means 25% of the time you still affect him on round 4.
Assuming you didn't start the combat surrounded by enemies, and you used your power in round 2 after moving and doing whatever in first round, we are talking about 4 to 5 rounds of combat. How long does your average combat take?
I don't know why I am bothering but...
No. You don't have a 25% chance to still have him affected. You're expecting him to fail a 50% chance to succeed save, during which, by the way, you have to remain within 10 feet of him, four times in a row.
That isn't 25% that is way lower than 25%
You're going off of the effective coin flip probability. The issue with that is the old, "What is the chances of heads coming up three out of four times."
When what you need to be asking is "What is the probability of three heads coming up in a row."
(½)(½)(½)(½)
Or (½) to the 4th power.
If you want to get technical you have a 50% chance of them passing on the first round, a 50% chance of them passing on the second, and onward to infinity. Though it gets hinky when you start talking about runs. The deeper in the run you go, the lower chance of the run maintaining.
You are basically talking about a series of 4 coin flips. There are 16 possible outcomes on 4 coin flips.
So, to find out the potential chance of him being affected on any given round is the number of times that sequence appears in the total number of possible sequences.
There is a 50% chance that he will fail on the first round.
(Numbers 1-8 all begin with an H in the first roll.)
There are only 4 times that HH appears in the chart. So the chance of him being affected in the second round is 4/16 or 1/4 or 25%
There are only 2 times that HHH appears in the chart. This means that 2/16 or 1/8 so there is a 12.5% chance of him being effected in the 3rd round.
In the 4th round the chances are 1/16 or 6.25% chance that he would be affected in the 4th round.
This of course doesn't take into account any weirdness that somehow makes him pass in and out of the edge of your field either. That is a rare thing, but can happen, which gives the enemy more chances to save.
It is possible, though in rare situations, where someone could step in and out of your threatened area in order to force multiple saves to get out of the radiation sooner. This of course, if done intentionally is metagaming, but it can unintentionally happen. An enemy who wishes to circle you, for example, who begins at the edge of your radius could pass out of, then back into, your radiation up to 3 times in one action. Doing so would force 3 separate saves which dramatically reduces the chance of you getting it to stick longer.
Regardless... No, the chance of him staying sick in the 4th round isn't 25% it is 6.25%
