not sure that fleet is particularly useful for a solairian, i mean its not nothing.
but im not sure it adds enough at least at early levels.
Hwalsh's argument seemed to be (at least in part) that Stellar Rush is good because of the mobility range it offers the Solarian by combining a move action and the movement offered by a charge:
I have only once been in a position where I couldn't reach a target after level 2.
I have run into only one single instance where I couldn't reach someone in one round. Almost all of those times I could it was due to Stellar Rush.
To me the mobility aspect doesn't seem as important, since I find that melee characters have a ton of mobility anyway. That's why I theorized Hwalsh prizes Stellar Rush so highly - since a heavily armored solarian's charge range (40-50 feet) is about the same as a quick lightly armed Solarian's base move.
Don't get me wrong, I'd probably pick it up eventually on a solarian because the action economy advantage is considerable. But I don't think I'd make it my level 2 pick - I'd rather take Plasma Sheath for my photon revelation and delay SR for level 6.
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not sure that fleet is particularly useful for a solairian, i mean its not nothing.
but im not sure it adds enough at least at early levels.Hwalsh's argument seemed to be (at least in part) that Stellar Rush is good because of the mobility range it offers the Solarian by combining a move action and the movement offered by a charge:
I have only once been in a position where I couldn't reach a target after level 2.I have run into only one single instance where I couldn't reach someone in one round. Almost all of those times I could it was due to Stellar Rush.To me the mobility aspect doesn't seem as important, since I find that melee characters have a ton of mobility anyway. That's why I theorized Hwalsh prizes Stellar Rush so highly - since a heavily armored solarian's charge range (40-50 feet) is about the same as a quick lightly armed Solarian's base move.
Don't get me wrong, I'd probably pick it up eventually on a solarian because the action economy advantage is considerable. But I don't think I'd make it my level 2 pick - I'd rather take Plasma Sheath for my photon revelation and delay SR for level 6.
and he's right and it makes fleet a little less useful since you don't need fleet to get into the fight nearly as often and adds a nice little bit to damage while your at it.
though Plasma Sheath is a good option also
That can happen, but what is the difference between that and the Stellar Rush Solarian? Both the Stellar Rush Solarian and the NSR Solarian can do that. So, in that situation, you're looking at no gain or loss for being SR vs NSR.
Well, the difference is that the NSR solarian would have a different revelation. That's his gain. Say the example is at level 5 instead of level 6 - the SR solarian gains nothing in that scenario, but the NSR solarian gets +2 damage from Plasma Sheath. :)
NSR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, readies action to attack with reach weapon.
SR: Attunes Solar, activates Plasma Sheath, charges, makes one attack.NSR's Enemy Turn: Moves into melee, gets hit by AoO + readied action, makes one attack.
SR's Enemy Turn: Provokes no AoO, makes full attack against Solarion.Uh also...
You said, "Moves into melee, gets hit by AoO + Readied Action"
That doesn't work that way. You don't trigger an AoO for moving into melee. That would just be, "Moves into melee, gets hit by Readied Action."
The only way that could happen is if the Solarian were using a Reach Weapon which changes things slightly. Reach weapon tactics are a little different.
I did say that, but I think you may have missed that in the sentence immediately before that I also said that he was wielding a reach weapon. I went ahead and bolded the relevant part in the quote you quoted. :)
I thought you also assumed a reach weapon (or a large solarian, same difference really) since in your example:
Enemy steps away, SR makes an attack of opportunity for 2d6+1d4+14.
You clearly assumed both solarians got an AoO from the enemy moving away. Why wouldn't the enemy just Guarded Step out of range and cast a spell/shoot you (or just plain Withdraw) if you don't have reach?
Fleet isn't that good though. Feats are a rare commodity, for a very small amount of credits you can get the effect of fleet on a Heavy Armored Solarian so... Fleet is kind of a waste of a feat in the grand scope of things.
I still think Fleet is a decent option, but you can take a a different feat, no problem. As you say, feats are a rare commodity and saving a feat on heavy armor puts him ahead. :)
Your* math and thinking may be a little flawed (...)
First, fleet will give you a 40 base move.
You're right, I'm getting ahead of myself. My math is correct, but since I wasn't actually showing it I can see why it would throw you off.
The PB to make a light armor solarian is rough because of the MAD aspect we've already discussed to death in other threads. I sidestep that issue by dipping a level of blitz soldier - I get a +2 bump to my already pretty good fort and will saves, and my resolve is now based on strength so I can get away with a lower charisma. If my base speed is 30, +10 from Fleet and +10 from Blitz puts me at 50 feet base speed, or 100 feet distance if I charge. This is what I alluded to when I used the term quick Solarian - around here 'kjapp' is shorthand for the blitz dip, the direct translation for 'kjapp' would be "quick". :)
There is almost no reason for a Solarian to ever take a -10 ft movement heavy armor.
In all but 2 instances there is a -5ft to -0ft armor at every level (those levels are 10 and 17)
The reason is that each armor has a stat budget, and the disadvantage of having -10 speed penalty means those armors usually have a better stat budget than -5 speed ones. If you pick a -10 speed armor you will usually gain more baseline AC or more upgrade slots. As an example, If you want to use more than one armor upgrade at a time you'll need to be an android, use light armor, wear ceremonial plate (-10 speed), or wait till you can buy level 7 armor. You can absolutely stick to -5 speed armors, but it does come with some drawbacks.
I know you like to look at the minutia of other people's posts, so I was trying to be cover all my bases, be comprehensive and objective in my summary - so I included speed estimates for both armor types. :)
Lots of speed comparison talk.
Hope you don't mind cutting that last quote a little short, the post was getting unruly. Speed Suspensions are definitely great! A quick light armor solarian with a speed suspension would move 60 feet in one move action (which is honestly enough to clear most rooms in a single move) or charge for 120 feet!
I'll repeat this just to be clear: I definitely think Stellar Rush is a good revelation, especially if you plan to be an in-your-face heavy-armor charge-happy solarian, but there are plenty of other ways to make the class work. :)
It is a poor idea to go Light Armored melee Solarian from a pure math standpoint. In order to reach the AC of heavy armor (41/42) at maximum level you need a 26 Dexterity (+8) when combined with the best armor, and +2 from Solar Armor, you get to a 42/42. Meaning if you go light armored melee you are giving up defense, for very little gain. You can do it, but is a poor choice.
I think the better initiative, improved reflex saves, lower ACP, extra feat and improved mobility offered by the higher dexterity is a worthwhile tradeoff for the free Solar weapon and slightly more MAD syndrome you wind up with. You obviously feel otherwise. We've been over that in the past, so I don't really see any reason to rehash this point any further. Let's agree to disagree on that one?
Secondly, by level 6, most Melee Solarians are going to have step up (if not Step Up and Strike) meaning moving 5ft away via guarded step usually won't matter much.
I don't think a level 6 solarian wouldn't be able to pick up Step Up And Strike without retraining(?) but I see your point. I'm not sure spending two feats is worth it when you can replicate the effect with a reach weapon though.
Now, I did miss your statement about a reach weapon. That, as I believe I stated, changes the scenario.
Great, happy I could help there. And yes, you did indeed state that. :)
There is a big difference between a reach weapon build and a melee build. Reach weapons focus on a form of battlefield control aspect, which is a different goal.
(...)
Its goal is to control where the enemy goes. You hope to keep them at bay, usually in a protection role, meaning that you likely want someone who is much more dangerous than you standing behind you. You want them to not want to get by and the reach weapon facilitates that.
That's definitely one way of doing it, but it's not the only way to use a reach weapon in Starfinder. Reach control was a popular pathfinder build (typically focusing on excessive AoOs with Combat Reflexes and tripping, usually with a polearm) but in Starfinder you can also use a reach weapon as a normal melee weapon (striking adjacent targets) so the hassle for using one is much smaller. I don't necessarily suggest using reach weapons only to control the battlefield but more as a tool to maximize the number of attacks you get to make while denying the opposition full attacks - or, ideally, any attacks at all.
If you're fighting something that wants to be in melee, do what I did earlier - spend your move action on whatever looks good (Blazing Orbit can be pretty cool for this) and ready an action to attack when he enters range. As soon as he does, you get two attacks at full attack bonus to his one - one AoO for entering reach and your readied action.
Conversely if the opponent is ranged then go stand adjacent to ranged enemy/caster with a reach weapon and you're set. He moves or withdraws, you still get an AoO. He Guarded Steps and shoots/casts a spell, you're still threatening and have your reaction action available to AoO him. Arguably his best option is actually to stay in melee and cast or shoot you with a full attack, which opens him up to both an AoO and a full attack from you on the next turn.
Reach weapons can be pretty funky in Starfinder. :)
If your goal was to try to score a point by saying, "Hah! See! There are ways to build characters that use melee weapons differently!"
Congratulations? I never have said otherwise.
I'll respond to this in my reply to your second post.
Uh... Sadly not really.
In some cases (Ceremonial Plate) this sometimes appears to be the case, where you get a lot of Upgrade Slots...
But in many other places, for example the Vesk Overplate II and Lashunta Ringwear III, they have the same number of slots, are the same level, and the difference is only depending on how much dex you have.
I'm happy you saw the point I made with Ceremonial Plate. :)
In the comparison you're making the main difference is (as you note) that the Vesk Overplate gives you the same AC with 14 dex (25/27) as you'd have if you had 16 dex and was wearing the Lashunta Ringwear. IE the Lashunta Armor gets a discount since the wearer is putting in more effort to get the same result. :)
This is perhaps better illustrated if you look at the three level 11 armors:
Golemforged Plating IV gives +18/+20 AC assuming you have a +3 dex mod, -3 ACP, -10 ft movement, and 6 upgrade slots. It's priced at 24 800 credits, so it's the second cheapest armor.
Lashunta Ringwear IV gives +20/+22 AC assuming you have +4 dex (19/21 otherwise), -3 ACP, -5 speed, and 4 armor upgrades. It costs 27 100 credits, so it's the most expensive armor.
Vesk Overplate III gives +19/+21 AC assuming you have +3 dex, -2 ACP, -5 speed, and 4 armor upgrades. It's priced at 23 400 credits, making it the cheapest alternative.
None of these armors can be said to be the universally best option. Golemforged Plating is the best option if you're really invested in armor upgrades.
Lashunta Ringwear is the best option if you have +4 dex and you can afford the extra expense over Overplate.
Vesk Overplate is the best option if you have +3 dex - it's cheaper than Ringwear but otherwise identical.
Near as I can tell, all the different armors turn out like this - they all have upsides and downsides. There may be one or two outliers, but generally speaking every armor with an upside will also have a downside - be it baseline AC bonus, number of upgrade slots, size of the speed penalty, ACP, max dex cap, or price. Now, if those upsides and downsides are actually well balanced against one another is a different matter, but that's probably better off in its own thread.
Apologies for double-posting, I'm putting this in a separate post in case the Paizo mods get trigger happy and start deleting. I spent a fair bit of time typing up and formatting the last one and don't want it to get swept up in the aftermath.
I wonder why you seem to be taking veiled shots at me.
You're math and thinking may be a little flawed in your effort to try to score a point on me somehow.
I don't think you're being comprehensive... What I do think you're trying to do is find small mistakes, or create perceived "Gotcha" moments to attack people you see as forum opponents. I'm not going to play that game. There is no point to playing that game.
Not only am I not going to back down to it, as I feel no sense of embarrassment from such things, but I'm not going to engage either.
So, while I have enjoyed some of our verbal dueling, I don't think it is productive anymore. So I shall simply choose to not engage with you while you persist at these...
You've made a few hints that you seem to think I'm taking shots at you earlier in this thread. The first two times you did so I went back, looked over my posts, didn't see anything problematic, so I shrugged it off as maybe me using unintentionally bad phrasing (English is not my native language, I'm pretty good at it but I do screw it up occasionally) or maybe you having a bad day. I know you're dealing with some difficult stuff these days, so that's certainly understandable. However, this is the third time now so I feel I can't ignore this any longer.
Lately I've found that some of the threads you've participated in get... Well, for lack of a better term, tense. At times they escalate to terse if not outright hostile, and I'm sorry to say that I got annoyed and probably added to some of that terseness in one of those threads. Partially as a result of that I've been trying very hard to keep this thread pleasant and on track, and frankly I'm a little sad that we seem to have chased away the OP, VampByDay, anyway. While you may find it hard to believe, I feel I've been going out of my way to keep an open mind and stay positive here. My impression is that you get a good bit of enjoyment out of discussing RPGs and you don't seem to enjoy arguments that occasionally spawn around you, so I've tried to make the discussions we've both participated in positive and constructive.
Breti mentioned something in passing over here that I have to agree with, I think you have a tendency to present scenarios that are skewed to highlight the strengths and downplay the weaknesses of whatever argument you're making. This can be frustrating for the rest of us, since we (assuming we notice the flaw in the scenario) can't be sure if you feel you have to intentionally misrepresent your argument to make it look stronger, or if you genuinely don't realize the shortcomings of your comparison. Either way it weakens the argument more than if you'd presented a less convincing but more balanced scenario. To grab one example, when you make statements like "Sickened is just -2 AC" and "[sickened is] a far cry from what it was in Pathfinder" it's hard to figure out exactly where you're coming from. Are you saying sickened only affects AC because you dismiss the other penalties from Sickened as irrelevant (which I would strongly disagree with, -2 on saves alone is absolutely significant), or because you're unaware that sickened affects both attack, save, damage, and ability rolls? The SF sickened condition is literally identical to the PF version, so obviously we're not talking about a mechanical change. Do you perhaps mean that Sickened was better in Pathfinder because Starfinder's stat scaling is different, or are you confusing PF's sickened with a different condition like nauseated? In cases like these honestly can't tell what you're trying to say, so I ask you to clarify.
If I make a correction on your math, highlight what I think is a weakness in your scenario or just point out something I think you might have missed I'm not doing it to score cheap points, but because I'm not sure if you (or everyone participating for that matter) are aware of it and I genuinely think it's worth pointing out. That's not me trying to "score points", that's me doing my hardest to help you because I don't want you to base your decisions on a faulty baseline.
It genuinely makes me sad that you seem to think I'm somehow out to get you. :(
I've reached out to you when you mentioned that you weren't doing so well. I offered advice and some suggestions to try and help with your situation, but frankly you didn't seem very interested in that. I didn't want to push my luck or offer unsolicited advice, so I dropped the issue. I do talk to people for a living and I've been told I'm a pretty good listener, so if you change your mind or want someone to talk to, about solarians or other stuff, just shoot me a PM. I'm here. :)
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Uh the move I suggested the character had suckers, so they didn't fall prone thank you very much.Stellar rush is useful, no doubt. If I was going to be in close combat often, it's definitely an ability I would b choosing.
But I suspect it would not be a power I'd be getting off every combat.
I certainly wouldn't be doing the rush along walls then fall prone on the ground move suggested above by HWalsh. That opens you up to an AoO (leaving your square in a threatened area) and leaves you prone in melee. That's just....well stupid.
I've seen too many situations where the terrain just stops the charge for enemies in cover. That includes with th caveat of moving first to try an open up charge lane. This is particularly true in corridors and buildings. Cover is just so much more prevalent in Starfinder.
I also think the revelations and how you choose them would heavily depend on the way you play.
If you're playing society games, where you have no idea who you're allies are going to be from one game to the next, then I would be choosing powers that work for me as an individual more than ones than synergise in groups.
However, in games where I know the other players and characters, I'd be choosing more revelations based around team dynamics. I mean, you throw radiation at a group of combatants and combine it with the Feint ability of allies (or yourself if you've gone improved Feint) and your debuffs start looking much better.
So, like all the revelations, Stellar Rush has varying value dependant on the campaign your in. It's still a hard one to pass up if you're planning on getting up close and personal as often as possible.
You're the one who said you fall, it's in your own post.
Climbing Suckers also only work in light armour, which isn't your build for the melee Solarian I thought? They also require you to have bare feet or at least th soles exposed, which opens up all sorts of other problems walking around debris etc, let alone protection from certain environmental conditions.
Your method is a nice work around for a guy standing next to a wall. But he still needs to be next to a wall. So limited usefuleness. Which again points to my statement on how the power is just as subjectively useful as any of the others.
In fact, you're pointing out in your own posts just how much gear you have to invest in so you can get to work. Jump jets, suckers, other revelations like gravity boost. That's quite a bit of investment in resources for soemthnig you consider a must have. Admittedly jump jets and climbing suckers only cost you 1200 credits all up, which you can afford if you're a solar weapon guy, but then you're a solar weapon guy in light armour which isn't the best of options for a melee dude.
I agree that it's a good power. I wouldn't go so far as to say it's a must have.
You also point out how much more movement it gives you. But the extra movement only comes from a charge. A charge can only be declared if you can reach an enemy. I'm not sure if it's your intent, but the way you talk about it makes it seem like you'll be moving 80 odd feet every round.
You don't have to be barefoot to use those suckers. You do need proper footwear though, which--insofar as I'm aware--isfree and generally included with your existing outfits.
I disagree with health frequently, but what he is saying here regarding stellar rush is absolutely true.