@Deathless: Generally, I'd say that boosting your flatfooted AC is your best investment for ignoring the lack of Uncanny Dodge. It's definitely doable. A 1 level dip for Medium/Heavy armor proficiency + masterwork or better breastplate, or mithral full plate, or a mithril breastplate... Those are all solid...
Yes, I agree. I didn't mention them because they are a bit ... obvious. A lot of focus was on missing uncanny dodge, so I provided an ability that was sort of similar. Mithral medium armor is probably the best, plus natural armor. Even a source of miss chance would be equally as good.
Either way, don't take Wary Eye. It's... honestly, it doesn't seem that good to me. Focus on boosting your defenses instead: saving throws, Armor, ability to escape grapples and such, etc. Your hexes should give you a few options here (flight = staying out of danger, right?).
Its not amazing, but there are other sources for initiative outside of combat traits. Besides, denying that opponent the ability to make you flat-footed for the entire combat? That's sort of handy.
Hmm, checking out the potential for Animal Skin as your first Major hex... The Quillcat is a good choice, at small size and with pounce. It has a bite and tail slap attack that you can get. Between Prehensile Hair (slam), Nails (claws), and taking multiattack, you'd have one hell of a pounce.
Things that make enemies vulnerable to sneak attacks are always good, there's some hexes that give the entangled condition (which I seem to recall allows sneak attacks). I built one as an intellectual exercise that used slumber hex and a bunch of feats to allow quicker coup de grace, so drop that guy, run up, coup de grace.
Entangle does not set someone up for sneak attack. The effect gives them a penalty to their dexterity, but does not remove their Dex from their AC total (even if it ends up negative).
Greater Invisibility from a friendly wizard buddy, octopus form with something to let you breathe air, sneak attack grapple things to death?Yep! Actually, you might not even need to solve the breathing problem, depending on your GM's interpretation of the polymorph rules. The section on polymorph spells says that "if the form grants a swim or burrow speed, you maintain the ability to breathe if you are swimming or burrowing," but it never says you lose the ability to breath air, and you don't actually get the aquatic subtype. So its possible that you'll be just fine crawling around as an octopus on land.
You could also take the Water Lung Hex just to be sure breathing air won't be a problem.
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Why hasn't anyone made a "better than the Shifter" joke yet? Those are still in, right?
If a druid with 9 wisdom can match, let alone better that class, there's little point devoting any thought to it.
Yes, I know there are threads thousands of posts long on the subject. People still reading those probably don't have > 9 Wis either, there's no chance of a thread that long leading to a resolution.
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You know, with some of these hexes... DEX-to-damage, 8 skill ranks a level, full sneak attack, effectively possessing animal-based wildshape at will once you hit level 10 via Animal Skin, flight, the ability to breathe water and air at once, scaling DR/cold iron, hexes...
Why hasn't anyone made a "better than the Shifter" joke yet? Those are still in, right?
I don't think those are meant to be jokes.
Last I checked, bite/slam/claw/claw/rend plus a blown poison save still ruin a rogue's day.
Not in a surprise round. It gets to bite, then it's done.
At higher levels, you can start sneak attacking with bleeding attack, Flensing Strike, Enforcer, and a swift action ice tomb. Your target will be shaken and sickened by your attack, then must save against your ice tomb hex with a -4 penalty.
Are there any rules to determine what order your the effects one attack are resolved in? If you hit them with enforcer, a hex strike a spell storing AOMF and a held charge of a touch spell - the order they impact the creature can make a difference - how is the order determined/resolved?
Not if it has pounce!Last I checked, bite/slam/claw/claw/rend plus a blown poison save still ruin a rogue's day.Not in a surprise round. It gets to bite, then it's done.
What's more likely and almost as bad (and the usual bow-out for the unprepared melee rogue) is just being grabbed/grappled while flat-footed in the surprise round, then his turn is blown trying to get away, then the monster unloads its full-attack next round while the rogue's defenses suck, and it tears him to pieces with raw damage.
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Low/mid-level PFS moments: I'm playing a tank and another player is doing the bouncy-guy-in-leather thing. He's jumped by a monster. I move my guy up and take a swat. Comes the monster's turn again, the GM shakes his head and he and I exchange a knowing glance. I grin and arch my eyebrows. The GM has his monster take one swipe at his Happy Meal, and the rest at me. Rogue lives another round.
The "knowing glance" spelled out: "This guy is going to get himself killed, but I don't want to be the one do it, at least not right now today, so I'm going to have to scuff you up a bit rather than chowing down the easy snack. I figured you wouldn't mind since you moved up." My grin-reply was, "Yeah, go ahead."
The fortunate player's character's life was basically as the mercy of the good graces of two people: The GM, who could have easily killed him outright, and me, who could have limited the GM's options by refraining from moving my character into the melee reach range of that particular monster to give it a second target.
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What's more likely and almost as bad (and the usual bow-out for the unprepared melee rogue) is just being grabbed/grappled while flat-footed in the surprise round, then his turn is blown trying to get away, then the monster unloads its full-attack next round while the rogue's defenses suck, and it tears him to pieces with raw damage.Not if it has pounce!Last I checked, bite/slam/claw/claw/rend plus a blown poison save still ruin a rogue's day.Not in a surprise round. It gets to bite, then it's done.
Of course, a Sylvan Trickster doesn't need to use Escape Artist to escape a grapple. They can simply put the grappling enemy to sleep with Slumber (Hexes don't provoke opportunity attacks).
What's more likely and almost as bad (and the usual bow-out for the unprepared melee rogue) is just being grabbed/grappled while flat-footed in the surprise round, then his turn is blown trying to get away, then the monster unloads its full-attack next round while the rogue's defenses suck, and it tears him to pieces with raw damage.
Does that happen often?
Just as likely:
Monster grabs rogue.
Melee ally, safe from AoOs, runs around and attacks monster with flanking from the rogue.
Grappled rogue full-attacks monster with sneak damage.
Monster, if still alive, full-attacks rogue, who is no longer flat-footed and probably survives.
At 4th level, the hexcrafter magus gains access to a small number of witch's hexes. The hexcrafter magus picks one hex from the witch's hex class feature. He gains the benefit of or uses that hex as if he were a witch of a level equal to his magus level. This feature replaces spell recall.
The Hexcrafter has a clause (which I bolded) that says what you describe.
That text is not present in the Fey Trickster archetype, which means that, as written, Fey Tricksters do not have any levels for selecting or benefitting from hexes. This means any level-based effects (such as Flight hex, Heal hex, Evil Eye, and so on) aren't applicable, and only the base effects are what the Fey Trickster can utilize.
Fyi, for the flight hex, nothing past the base effect (feather fall), shows up in Herolab.
What's more likely and almost as bad (and the usual bow-out for the unprepared melee rogue) is just being grabbed/grappled while flat-footed in the surprise round, then his turn is blown trying to get away, then the monster unloads its full-attack next round while the rogue's defenses suck, and it tears him to pieces with raw damage.Of course, a Sylvan Trickster doesn't need to use Escape Artist to escape a grapple. They can simply put the grappling enemy to sleep with Slumber (Hexes don't provoke opportunity attacks).
What are the odds of success doing that (as opposed to Escape Artist)?
Well, the monster is going to have to fail a will save (and be a category of opponent susceptible to will save magic), which means the hex-caster is going to have to emphasize his Int score and all the other usual caster DC-boosting mechanisms at the expense of whatever rogues normally do. I.e., the MAD problem.
Not if it has pounce!Last I checked, bite/slam/claw/claw/rend plus a blown poison save still ruin a rogue's day.Not in a surprise round. It gets to bite, then it's done.
Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't pounce require a charge, a full-round action?
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat. You can’t use this option unless you are restricted to taking only a standard action on your turn.
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Maybe I'm missing something, but doesn't pounce require a charge, a full-round action?Not if it has pounce!Last I checked, bite/slam/claw/claw/rend plus a blown poison save still ruin a rogue's day.Not in a surprise round. It gets to bite, then it's done.
Nope.
If you are able to take only a standard action on your turn, you can still charge, but you are only allowed to move up to your speed (instead of up to double your speed) and you cannot draw a weapon unless you possess the Quick Draw feat.
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Ninja time in da Rogue thread!
Ah, right. Thanks.
I agree that giving up the things that make a rogue rogue is a stiff compromise, btw.
Something about morphing into an octopus... I don't know. I have to admit, I'm not a big fan of polymorph spells in general (regardless of their power), so my opinion is obviously biased here.
Hexes are cool. I dig the witch. I like trapfinding, too, however. Argh!
Trapfinding can be gotten back with a 1-2 level dip in an archetype from another class - but as said, I don't think it's NECESSARY.
A good choice would be 2 levels of Trapper ranger for a bonus feat, trapfinding, and favored enemy.
Or you can take a background trait to get back the ability to disarm magic traps...
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It's at least worth noting that Mummy's Mask campaign traits may not be reliably available across all campaigns.
Maybe in games ran by super-oppressive Mister Caverns who go out to limit and hold down players!
Down with dictatorship!
If it's on d20pfsrd, then I can haz it!
DON'T TREAD ON ME!
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Since a build is likely to have a good INT, Investigator wouldn’t be a bad dip, assuming you aren’t also dipping Witch. It’s 3/4 BAB, which hurts, but it gets you a lot of out of combat utility. Plus a couple of extracts. And it gets you Trapfinding back. But there may not be enough combat ability added for a lot of builds.
It's at least worth noting that Mummy's Mask campaign traits may not be reliably available across all campaigns.
To be fair, NOTHING in the game is "reliably available across all campaigns"...
Ferious Thune: Alchemist, bard, hunter, Investigator, oracle, ranger, slayer and sorcerer can get you the ability to disarm magic traps.
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Yep. But not all of those go with a high Int as well as others. Cryptbreaker would. Bard, Hunter, Oracle, and Sorcerer (except for Sage bloodline) don’t really. Ranger and Slayer are more on the Martial dip side, so if you want a dip to improve combat that also gives Trapfinding, they are good options.
Investigator adds all knowledge skills as class skills plus gives you free Inspiration with them, and an Inspiration pool. In addition to the couple of extracts.
Cryptbreaker would give bombs (though at d4 for most targets), Cryptbreaker’s Draight for Darkvision (for 10 minutes), Throw Anything, a couple of extracts, and wand use.
Two level dips give more options. But that’s a lot just for Trapfinding.
There’s also another option, though. UMD and a scroll or wand of Aram Zey’s Focus. Carry it for when you need it. Put a few copies on a scroll, just in case. You’ll have the INT for it. It’ll take a DC 23 UMD, but since you won’t typically be rushed when disabling a trap, it’s ok if it takes a few tries to activate.
So I thought this thread was supposed to be about Rogues with Hexes, not Uncanny Doge or Trapfinding. Both abilities feel super Grognard to me...
So as to builds I see two different paths for this archetype. This is assuming Hexes work like they should:
a) High INT caster build. You'll likely want sleep and other save based hexes. So you relly need to max out INT for this one.
From a pure optimization perspective I'm not quite seeing why one would want to play such a character over a Witch. Nobody really needs 12 skill points per level and either you're hexing or stabbing in combat and I'm not sure whether or not you can specialize on both. Then again maybe you can build a nice reach rogue this way.
b) Regular Rogue which uses hexes to add utility. Hexes can complement your combat ability by adding natural attacks or give you tricks such as flight. You'll want to avoid save based hexes so you prolly won't pick up a hex every two levels.
This is a build I find super appealing as plenty of hexes are strictly better than Rogue powers and let you add some nice magic sprinkles.
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Wow that is nice... probably won't be allowed in pfs :pNo, no, I'm sure they'll allow it. The hexes will just be usable once per day, with an effective witch level of zero.
But we won't know until July, 2018.... because, y'know Gencon is right around the corner.
...maybe you can build a nice reach rogue this way.
That was my initial thought as well, in order to get around the action economy aspect. Get your 1 1/2 Dex/damage with an Elven Branched Spear, and a metric ton of AoOs as you are dex based. Use Swamp's Grasp to set up areas of difficult terrain, giving you easy access to AoOs if your enemies approach you. If your enemies ignore you, Slumber, Ice Tomb, City Sight, Evil Eye, whatever it takes. Buff your allies with Fortune or Waxen Image if you prefer. Have easy access to flight, water breathing, shapeshifting etc as a martial character.
(Sidenote - the Elf alternate racial trait Fey-Sighted could be cool on such a character, letting you still know what is magical and what's not, even if you have no actual casting from your class)
It also helps that you could always take Combat Trick: Lunge at level 8, in order to really make good use of that reach.
You could even maybe find use out of the Stalwart feat chain, seeing as you get DR from the archetype itself, to really start competing with the Barbarian at higher levels.