The Starship Combat Rules Have Been Fixed

[huscarl105]

Nice to see the changes before we gt to the level it would hurt. I do have one question, was the change on the flyby stunt from tier of opponents ship to tier of your ship intentional?

I thought that was a nice feature especially in the one player starship vs many inferior npc ships type of fight.

[HWalsh]

Deadmanwalking wrote:

With Moving Speech you might actually have a point thematically, but it's powerful enough that I understand the mechanical need for a raising DC and am willing to suspend disbelief.

Actually, with that one... These are higher level characters, they've heard, "We're going to fight them on the beaches! We will fight them in the trenches! We will not back down! We will not go quietly into the night! We will stand! We will fight! We will win! ARE YOU WITH ME?!?"

They've heard, "Today we stand on the precipice of greatness, with the enemy at our fronts, and all the people of Tallus XII behind us. We are all that stands between the horrors of tyranny and the beauty of freedom."

They've heard, "We've got one chance here to make our stand. One chance to leave a mark in this universe. If we don't take it here, then millions will die. If we do, then our names will go down in history."

They've heard, "The evil empire doesn't think we're good enough. The evil empire thinks they can come in here and push us around. They think we're a joke, something to be swept aside. Now, I don't know about you, but I don't plan on going down like that."

So, the difficulty goes up because you have to come up with something they haven't heard before... Seems legit.

[Paris Crenshaw]

huscarl105 wrote:

Nice to see the changes before we gt to the level it would hurt. I do have one question, was the change on the flyby stunt from tier of opponents ship to tier of your ship intentional?

I thought that was a nice feature especially in the one player starship vs many inferior npc ships type of fight.

That's a good question. I have a sneaking suspicion that it's a copy/paste error, but I could be wrong.

[Gary Bush]

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

Not yet. I didn't get to it, last night, and I can't access the site from work. I'll try to do it this evening.

I have a Starship Combat Matrix that I posted there that I need to get updated now as well. Give it look and let me know what you think! :)

[hiiamtom]

thenovalord wrote:

Nobody plays at level 20

If the numbers are doable in the level 4 to 8 range then all is good.

I guess if you roll a natural 8 on your d20 you would want to succeed

Then why print them at all if the numbers are busted and no one uses the rules? It'd be burning cash for no reason.

[thenovalord]

hiiamtom wrote:

thenovalord wrote:

Nobody plays at level 20

If the numbers are doable in the level 4 to 8 range then all is good.

I guess if you roll a natural 8 on your d20 you would want to succeed

Then why print them at all if the numbers are busted and no one uses the rules? It'd be burning cash for no reason.

Hmm. Bounded Accuracy? I like it.

[HWalsh]

hiiamtom wrote:

thenovalord wrote:

Nobody plays at level 20

If the numbers are doable in the level 4 to 8 range then all is good.

I guess if you roll a natural 8 on your d20 you would want to succeed

Then why print them at all if the numbers are busted and no one uses the rules? It'd be burning cash for no reason.

He's right.

Traditionally in Roleplaying Games, from D&D, to Pathfinder, to Starfinder, to YOU NAME IT legitimate high level games are super rare.

There was once a poll on the PF forums where they asked, who had actually done 1-20... A few people said they had... Almost everyone else said they had never seen it. Most people claimed to have gotten to 12, 15, or even 18, but it is rare.

Why is it rare?

It takes a LONG time.

Spoiler:

Things happen in those long times. People have lives, jobs, get bored, have real life happen, get married, people move, when I was in high school someone's mother ended our game when she saw that he borrowed my D&D book, she freaked out and threw it in a chipper shredder while claiming it was demonic, it was my book and I couldn't afford to replace it, anything can destroy a gaming group. We used to joke that the second a GM got a girlfriend or boyfriend that it was the group's death knell... And usually it was... If they dated one of the players? Almost never pretty.

It is a HUGE time investment for the GM.

Spoiler:

There is exactly 1 AP that goes from 1-20 that I know of. I've been playing (started in D&D in 1988) for 29 years. I have been in ONE game that made it to 20. That game was a caveat though as we started at level 10. There were some old modules that did it back in the day, but they were super rare, and many ended via party wipe long before level 20. I was in a Superhero game (M&M) that made it to PL 20 (power level, same as level) more or less, and it took us 2.5 years. (He was the best GM I've ever known, may he rest in peace.) I ran a homebrew MYTHIC game that hit level 18 legitimately, and it took me 2 years, it fell apart when 2 players who were dating broke up and their self-destruction ripped the group in half.

It requires an INSANE amount of skill and planning.

Spoiler:

You can't just pick up a book and wing it when people get that high. They have so many options, so many avenues, and you need to know what they are capable of, and more importantly what they are likely to do... Unless you are running a sandbox, and even then you may not need the planning skill, but you need the improve skill.

I mean, okay, check it out... Cards on the table... I used to work for a tabletop gaming company. I also used to be a professional game designer. I worked on video games that ranged from casual, to an MMO, and even to be a lead designer for a game project linked to the 2012 Olympics. I have tons of skill at planning, before some stuff happened I was really good at it. Even I have problems keeping a narrative together long enough to go from 1-20.

The GM can just lose interest.

Spoiler:

I've had this happen. Real life can do things, players can do things, all kinds of things can just suck the joy you get from running. Be they players who feel entitled who try to absolutely force WBL, to other players who just WON'T LET IT REST (true story, ran a Dresden Files RPG once, and had a player pester me about his character for hours each day, and after 2 weeks of it, I dreaded running, I just was tired of the game) to some who are power gaming to the point that you are having balance issues, to players who cheat, throw a fit, or any number of things... Sometimes you can spend 5 hours making a BEAUTIFUL map only for a player to intentionally avoid anything resembling an encounter simply because (and they admitted this) they just thought it would be funny to mess with it. I have had it happen to me, seen it happen to others, and generally it is an accepted fact. We run games for fun, and if we're not having fun, we don't run.

Sometimes it isn't even something someone does. I was running a game when I got the job for the Olympics. I was also a college adjunct too. I was pulling 20 hours at the school a week and then 60 hours a week on the project. I was exhausted. By the time Saturday (game day) came around I didn't want to game, I didn't have time to plan, I wanted to sleep and watch TV. That project was a 6 month gig, that killed that game almost instantly.

There is no easy solution.

Spoiler:

Some might think the answer to this is to suck it up and run anyway. That is almost always a mistake. If you do that, then you run the risk of wanting to do any number of things. I have seen more than one GM turn the game into GM vs Player simply because they wanted a level of challenge, and someone's power gaming was so ridiculous that they started going after the player's character just to get some drama in the game. Some GMs get so fed up with constantly feeling ineffective at their designs that they start fudging maliciously...

Note on that: I am 100% pro-fudge, if it increases the enjoyment of the players and the game, do it. There is a problem though if you are ever doing it just to "get em" as it were.

Sometimes you can take some time off, you can regain your center, come back and finish it out. Most of the time? You have another idea for a newer campaign, and you want to make it shiny and new.

Sometimes, in the case of Pathfinder, high level play simply isn't that fun. Starfinder... I don't know... Based on what we see from some players as benchmarks, I can tell you, I wouldn't want to run for them because they are too focused on winning and succeeding and I know I'd have to tune for that and that isn't as fun as telling an engaging and interactive story for me.

So the company prints the rules... Yes... From 1-20. There are rare outlier groups who manage this repeatedly. I've never personally met one... I have always seen it as the holy grail, those "One time we did it." games. Maybe in the modern day where so many players cut their teeth on MMORPGs where the primary point was to grind to max level that this is more common... But there is a reason why Organized play goes from 1-12, and why the professional groups who do podcasts tend to also stick to those same ranges... Those are the ranges where the game is managed more easily, where players advance not too fast, but fast enough that characters don't get stale...

Generally the more powerful your group is, the less the GM can do that is interesting. There are tons of interesting plots at low level, when the players can't just spam talk to dead, or raise dead, or augury, limited wish, miracle, or wish. A flying enemy can be a real obstacle at level 3 or 4... Once everyone has a way to fly at level 10... Not so much...

You can create drama for the players by giving them the magic corrupting ring and sending them to Mt. Doom to destroy it. They have to move quickly, decide when to rest, it is only a matter of time before they are corrupted. They have to sometimes push on when they are weaker than normal. It is tense and dramatic... Until they can just teleport to Mt. Doom and back in like you know... Two combat rounds... Or fly on giant eagles...

The party is stranded, trying to cross a desert on foot, they have limited rations, limited water, and there are dangerous predators that come out at night... They have to be dramatic and skillful and smart... Or they can case create food and drink, open up a door to their comfortable demiplane, and chill in their fully stocked portable castle... That's fine too...

Now, you can counter some of this, and when you hit the players in their demi-plane when their pants are down and they aren't expecting it you can get a high moment of drama... But you can't do that a whole bunch of times or it loses impact... And people start wondering how every enemy they know seems to know how to do that too...

So... That is why they print them, but that is also why they are rarely used and almost nobody plays at those levels...

I added spoiler tags because it is a bit of a rant, it is 5:30am, I haven't been able to sleep, and I didn't want to overly spam. So if ya don't wanna read it, ya ain't gotta see it.

Goodnight all...

[Wrath]

@Hwalsh - there are far more than one Adventure paths that go,to 20.
When 3rd edition came out they released a series of linked adventures that eventually led to fighting Ashardalon the dragon. It went to level 20 (and beyond).

Paizo used to publish Dungeon magazine. During that time, they released three adventure paths, which were so successful they modelled their new business off that concept.

The first one was set in Cauldren, a city in a volcano. I think it was called shackled city.
The second was age of worms - still the best AP I've ever run
The third was Savage Tides

Then there are the third party ones that pop up occasionally. In fact, there's a level 1 -20 adventure path being published for Starfinder already. Legendary
Planets.

I personally have run 5 campaigns into the level 20 region. I'm about to make that six using fifth edition rules.

there are definitely groups that run these games that high. While it's a smaller demographic than most commonly played 1-12 levels, it does exist. This is why the rules for those levels need to be polished. 5th edition does this much better than Pathfinder. Can't really tell if Starfinder will be better, but I suspect the modular nature of the game and future splat book releases will make it as unwieldy and broken as Pathfinder currently is.

[Ravingdork]

Wrath wrote:

I personally have run 5 campaigns into the level 20 region. I'm about to make that six using fifth edition rules.

Just how old are you!?

[HWalsh]

Wrath wrote:

@Hwalsh - there are far more than one Adventure paths that go,to 20.

When 3rd edition came out they released a series of linked adventures that eventually led to fighting Ashardalon the dragon. It went to level 20 (and beyond).

Paizo used to publish Dungeon magazine. During that time, they released three adventure paths, which were so successful they modelled their new business off that concept.

The first one was set in Cauldren, a city in a volcano. I think it was called shackled city.
The second was age of worms - still the best AP I've ever run
The third was Savage Tides

Then there are the third party ones that pop up occasionally. In fact, there's a level 1 -20 adventure path being published for Starfinder already. Legendary
Planets.

I personally have run 5 campaigns into the level 20 region. I'm about to make that six using fifth edition rules.

there are definitely groups that run these games that high. While it's a smaller demographic than most commonly played 1-12 levels, it does exist. This is why the rules for those levels need to be polished. 5th edition does this much better than Pathfinder. Can't really tell if Starfinder will be better, but I suspect the modular nature of the game and future splat book releases will make it as unwieldy and broken as Pathfinder currently is.

I never said going from 1-20 didn't happen, just that it is rare. I've been gaming since 1988 and I have NEVER managed anything that consistently so kudos to you. Though you're a VERY rare unicorn my friend.

The 3.5 things you referenced weren't AP's they were Modules. Modules are a different terminology, and I said they existed. They do happen, but they are rare.

[Kudaku]

Ravingdork wrote:

Wrath wrote:

I personally have run 5 campaigns into the level 20 region. I'm about to make that six using fifth edition rules.

Just how old are you!?

It's not that unusual. :p

To date I've completed three APs, all three ended with the players around level ~18. These are weekly games over the past... Five or so years?

I've also run a few games that ended earlier. RotRL we ended at level 10 because of burnout on my part, Emerald Spire started off really good but we got a bit sick of it after ~10 levels of constant dungeon delving. Generally speaking I much prefer the early-mid part of APs. Pathfinder gets wonky once you get into the double digits.

Wrath wrote:

In fact, there's a level 1 -20 adventure path being published for Starfinder already. Legendary Planets.

This piqued my interest, have you read it? I'm a little worried we're going to run into roadblocks because of Starfinder's publishing schedule, having a backup plan would be nice. :)

[QuidEst]

HWalsh wrote:

hiiamtom wrote:

thenovalord wrote:

Nobody plays at level 20

If the numbers are doable in the level 4 to 8 range then all is good.

I guess if you roll a natural 8 on your d20 you would want to succeed

Then why print them at all if the numbers are busted and no one uses the rules? It'd be burning cash for no reason.

He's right.

Traditionally in Roleplaying Games, from D&D, to Pathfinder, to Starfinder, to YOU NAME IT legitimate high level games are super rare.

There was once a poll on the PF forums where they asked, who had actually done 1-20... A few people said they had... Almost everyone else said they had never seen it. Most people claimed to have gotten to 12, 15, or even 18, but it is rare.

You're changing the question, though. It's incredibly rare to play 1-20, but that doesn't mean that nobody plays at level 20. It just means that a lot of those games don't start at first level.

[JohnHawkins]

HWalsh wrote:

I never said going from 1-20 didn't happen, just that it is rare. I've been gaming since 1988 and I have NEVER managed anything that consistently so kudos to you. Though you're a VERY rare unicorn my friend.

The 3.5 things you referenced weren't AP's they were Modules. Modules are a different terminology, and I said they existed. They do happen, but they are rare.

I have been gaming since 1984 and pretty much every campaign I have run since University has hit 'high levels' (I run a lot of systems so the actual definition of high level varies)Of the last 4 Pathfinder campaigns I ran 1 got to level 20 mythic 10, 1 to level 20, and 2 to level 16 , the star wars game I am running will get to 'High level'(no levels in that system though) and of the 2 pathfinder games I am running or planning to run 1 will get to 16-18 (I may write enough extra stuff to get to level 20 or it could fall apart due to a huge gap caused by my illness), and the other will get to 20.

So based on my experience I can categorically say that everyone plays at high level. Of course I will be as wrong as everyone who says the opposite but sweeping generalizations based on inadequate and biased data sets are all the rage now days

Also all of them started at level 1 or 2.

[Wrath]

Ravingdork wrote:

Wrath wrote:

I personally have run 5 campaigns into the level 20 region. I'm about to make that six using fifth edition rules.

Just how old are you!?

43.

Most of our campaigns run about two years. We ran age of worms and savage tide concurrently. I DMed age of worms, a mate was running savage Tides.

The first three took about a year and a half each. We had more free time then. They were also pretty much homebrew and mixed modules from dungeon or published adventures

I've been playing role play games since I was 13.

So prior to running 3rd edition and then Pathfinder etc, we ran other games into top tier as well.

The guys I run fifth edition for now are all in two or three other games too. They've bumped off three campaigns into the level 17 range since fifth ed started. Not me sadly, I'm still running the first one (Iron Gods modified for fifth ed and pushed out to level 20).

[Wrath]

@HWalsh. The 3.0 stuff were modules ( the ashardalon campaign), but the dungeon magazine ones were in fact an adventure path. They were called that by the publisher (Paizo) and released monthly in Dungeon Magazine.

4th edition released two campaigns into level 20 that I have. I'm sure there were third party ones for that as well. I didn't play 4th ed long enough to get those ones done, but I know two different groups who played both of those to conclusion.

D20 Star Wars also released a level 1-20 campaign (which I have the digital files for). It was fairly popular I believe.

I also know groups who prefer to run mini campaigns for characters in the 15 to 20 range.

So, the small and biased survey sample from this websites forums isn't indicative of gameplay.

Like all demographics, the level range of game play is bell curved. But when you design a game that runs all the way to twenty, you expect people will play at that level and should in fact make sure the rules work at that level.

[Wrath]

@ Kudaku - I've only read the first one, and so far they've only released two of them in total.

Turns out my group aren't interested in Starfinder so I haven't bothered with the second one.

While it is Starfinder compatible it isn't going to be Star Wars or Star Trek style sci fi. The writers are pushing a Star Gate and 60's pulp sci fi feel in stead. More John Carter meets Star Gate.

The original concept has no ship combat at all, but they are planning on vehicle stuff. In terms of this thread (which is about DCS for starship combat) it's probably not a relevant AP.

And on that note I'll stop derailing the thread with chat about high level campaigns.

[Kudaku]

Wrath wrote:

@High level campaigns

This lines up quite nicely with our experience - we typically spend anywhere between 12 and 24 months on one AP, depending on who's running it. Typically the first books go quite quickly (the first book will take ~1 month) then it slows down as we get into the higher levels. The average for us is roughly 14-16 months.

Wrath wrote:

@Legendary Planets

Interesting, thanks for the update!

[hiiamtom]

Just saying the games exist really miss the point of my comment. The point being that if a company is going to produce a game from levels 1-20 then the content for the game should matter from 1st level to 20th level - which wasn’t the case for Starfinder. It’s not a unique problem to Starfinder, but it is a very frustrating one. Of the games I know very well there are two that I can personally vouch for the math not breaking down, and only one of those two has levels - fourth edition. Like the style or function of the game or not, it is one of the few examples of making high level play functional. In my personal tastes 5e does a better job than Pathfinder that does a better job than 3.5, so to see Starfinder be a big step backwards in such an obvious way was really disappointing.

Guess it was my turn to rant.

[Wei Ji the Learner]

While the mechanics are familiar, as is the rough setting, the game itself is not.

I remember back to the days of the Red Box and the Blue Box, etc, when you'd wait a year or two for them to publish more material to allow your character to level up.

Truth in Text: We never got past 10 organically, and the only time I've gotten a character past that point was very, very recently within the last couple of years when a home campaign ran RotRL... and we got to the rarefied heights of... L17 at AP completion.

[pauljathome]

Gary Bush wrote:

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

Not yet. I didn't get to it, last night, and I can't access the site from work. I'll try to do it this evening.

I have a Starship Combat Matrix that I posted there that I need to get updated now as well. Give it look and let me know what you think! :)

Has anybody colsolidated all the information (old but unchanged, new and changed) into a set of cheat sheets that can be handed out? I'll do it (eventually) if nobody else does but I'm lazy and willing to steal somebody elses work :-) :-)

[Kudaku]

Here's a reddit thread where Kuzcoburra posted some up to date starship cheat sheets. I can't vouch for the quality, I bookmarked it for posterity but I haven't had a chance to look them over yet.

Hope it helps. :)

[Zombie Lord]

The Pilot - Full Power action wasn't listed in the FAQ, so it's still impossible at high levels.

[Hiruma Kai]

Zombie Lord wrote:

The Pilot - Full Power action wasn't listed in the FAQ, so it's still impossible at high levels.

I'm confused. There's no roll associated with the Pilot - Full Power action on page 324. You spend a resolve point and you get the benefits. It is guaranteed to work at all levels you can do it. Or did I miss a ruling elsewhere?

[Gary Bush]

Hiruma Kai wrote:

Zombie Lord wrote:

The Pilot - Full Power action wasn't listed in the FAQ, so it's still impossible at high levels.

I'm confused. There's no roll associated with the Pilot - Full Power action on page 324. You spend a resolve point and you get the benefits. It is guaranteed to work at all levels you can do it. Or did I miss a ruling elsewhere?

Full Power, page 324 wrote:

If you have at least 6 ranks in Piloting, you can spend 1 Resolve Point to move your starship up to 1-1/2 times its speed. You can make turns during this movement, but you add 2 to your

starship’s distance between turns.

Agree with Kiruma, there is no check involved with Full Power.

[Gary Bush]

pauljathome wrote:

Gary Bush wrote:

Paris Crenshaw wrote:

Not yet. I didn't get to it, last night, and I can't access the site from work. I'll try to do it this evening.

I have a Starship Combat Matrix that I posted there that I need to get updated now as well. Give it look and let me know what you think! :)

Has anybody colsolidated all the information (old but unchanged, new and changed) into a set of cheat sheets that can be handed out? I'll do it (eventually) if nobody else does but I'm lazy and willing to steal somebody elses work :-) :-)

Curious as to to why you would want the old information along with the new?

And it is "borrow with every intent of returning". :)

[Shinigami02]

They did specify "Old but unchanged", which I read as the old stuff that still applies. Basically a compilation of all current rules, rather than a set of just the old stuff and another of just the changed stuff.

[Gary Bush]

Ok. Look up thread. There is posting about one. It is pretty good.

Also you can look at the website pfsprep.com. While used by PFS GMs stuff for Starfinder has been added.

[The Masked Ferret]

I made a document (based off of the Starship role sheets from Into The Unknown) that contains the updated information in a more easily readable form. It can be found here.

Please let me know your thoughts and what I can improve.

[Zombie Lord]

Gary Bush wrote:

Agree with Kiruma, there is no check involved with Full Power.

huh! You guys are right. I was treating it like Orders and Overpower that also requires 6 ranks and spending a willpower. Thanks for pointing that out!

[pauljathome]

The Masked Ferret wrote:

I made a document (based off of the Starship role sheets from Into The Unknown) that contains the updated information in a more easily readable form. It can be found here.

Please let me know your thoughts and what I can improve.

Thank you for this.

[Athos710]

The Masked Ferret wrote:

I made a document (based off of the Starship role sheets from Into The Unknown) that contains the updated information in a more easily readable form. It can be found here.

Please let me know your thoughts and what I can improve.

Can you spread out the Critical Damage table for the Engineer? A couple extra Tabs will make it much easier to read.

[The Masked Ferret]

Athos710 wrote:

The Masked Ferret wrote:

I made a document (based off of the Starship role sheets from Into The Unknown) that contains the updated information in a more easily readable form. It can be found here.

Please let me know your thoughts and what I can improve.

Can you spread out the Critical Damage table for the Engineer? A couple extra Tabs will make it much easier to read.

Fixed the table, as requested.

[Perdue]

Just an FYI, for some reason the Role Sheets I created ended up in third party products:
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uql0?Starship-Role-Forms

Not sure what's up with that ::shrugs::

[Baxder]

So is there any word on when these corrections will be put in print? I only have one copy of the CRB and was planning on getting another since it's signed, but I'd rather wait for a corrected version.

[ThermalCat]

I know this is an old thread, but recently I haven't found any spreadsheets that serve the role of Starship combat reference and DC calculator.

Here's a Google Sheet I've been working on that is intended to serve as a cheat sheet.

https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VMbv9fxwvRd8iDD549flY4fmU4_vyNdUwq0 BpMTkKQ0/edit?usp=sharing

The link is read-only, but once you choose File -> Make a Copy, you will have a copy you can edit/customize.

It serves as a reference for players on starship roles (like Captain, Pilot, Gunner, Engineer, Science Officer and Minor Crew) as well as calculating the DC of skill check rolls. Being a spreadsheet, just update the light green boxes at the top for "Starship Tier" and "Enemy Tier" and the DC's will be updated. If the formulas change again, or you want to implement your own House Rules formulas, a spreadsheet is great (if you are comfortable working with them).

[BigNorseWolf]

poke the link. Page not found

[ThermalCat]

BigNorseWolf wrote:

poke the link. Page not found

Sorry about that. Thanks for pointing out it wasn't working.

Sample Starfinder Starship Combat Roles, working link (Hopefully maybe ;-)
------=====####=====------
http://bit.ly/SFcombatSheet
------=====####=====------

By using "Preview" post, I see that the link I posted would have worked if the URL was shorter...This website is putting a space in the URL that shouldn't be there between the "...wq0" and the "BpM..."
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1VMbv9fxwvRd8iDD549flY4fmU4_vyNdUwq0 BpMTkKQ0/edit?usp=sharing

Rather than make people edit out the space I made a short URL with bitly

[Jasque]

Linkified

http://bit.ly/SFcombatSheet

[ThermalCat]

Jasque wrote:

Linkified

http://bit.ly/SFcombatSheet

Thanks Jasque.

Version 2, with a clearer name

------=====##( V2 )##=====------
http://bit.ly/SFshipCombatRolesV2
------=====##( V2 )##=====------

Added some information on Critical Damage, Critical Effects and Single role reference sheets (and some hints on letter size print formatting, Cell D2 of most sheets)