Season Witch


Advice


Okay so aside from the Shifter there are actually other things in UW and one of them is the Seasons Witch. Which I love, not gonna lie, partially because of the art.
I also thought that the fluff for the autumn witch looked amazing and then I see you get slumber as a bonus hex and a DC bonus to it. ALL GOOD STUFF.

Now to the difficulties!
You also get a +1 to the DC of Acid spells and the The Autumn Patron provides you with a few for your convenience, culminating in Caustic Eruption.

Now to take advantage of this is rather simple to my mind, make a Dazing Caustic Eruption user, would actually be pretty terrifying. With a persistent rod and Spell Perfection. Very nasty. So I initially went with the below build.

Hexes:
1) Evil Eye
1) Slumber
2) Cackle
4) Flight
6) Misfortune
7) Fortune
8) Scar
10) Weather Control
12) Animal Skin
14) Ice Tomb
16) Retribution
18) Death Curse
20) Natural Disaster

Feats:
1) Spell Focus Conjuration (From Overwhelming Magic, Elf Alternate Racial)
1) Augmented Summons
3) Spell Penetration
5) Rime Spell
7) Extra Hex
9) Persistent Spell
11) Split Hex
13) Dazing Spell
15) Spell Perfection Caustic Eruption
17) Greater Spell Focus Conjuration
19) Greater Spell Penetration

I now feel as though although this would probably produce a very powerful character, it seems kinda cookie cutter, was wondering if y'all had any other suggestions for routes I might take.
I don't really want to change my hex selection (you may note I have ignored the Hex and Major hex suggestions made for a thematic autumn witch. This is because they're awful). Although I am happy to add a couple more with extra hex if y'all have some build selections with a couple spare feats knocking around.

Any advice?


Not quite, I believe. You get Slumber (or one other) in place of your first level hex choice, IIRC.


The line reads

Quote:

At 1st

level, she gains either the blight hex or
slumber hex as a bonus hex.

I would interpret Bonus to mean Bonus.


I wouldn't take extra hex (fortune), rather either ritual hex or spirit talker.
What do you plan on using Rime Spell for? Maybe go with Eldritch researcher, and create yourself some usable acid combat spells before lvl 14?

I'm going to comment on your hex selection, even if you don't like it.
You have Scar twice at 8 and 14.
I'd switch Ice Tomb and Weather Control - Ice Tomb gives you a Fort Save hex to go with your will saves
Summon Spirit is my go to Grand Hex, it is extremely powerful, giving you access to all spells of all classes, just pick a ghost of an 18th level caster of the class of choice... Strong diplomacy skill and good research will often result in the spellcasting being done for free. The negative level drawback is easily mitigated with Soul Stimulant


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
The line reads
Quote:

At 1st

level, she gains either the blight hex or
slumber hex as a bonus hex.
I would interpret Bonus to mean Bonus.

Doesn’t that ability replace the first-level hex, or am I misremembering?


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
The line reads
Quote:

At 1st

level, she gains either the blight hex or
slumber hex as a bonus hex.
I would interpret Bonus to mean Bonus.

I’m 90% sure it’s an error, this doesn’t make you pay enough elsewhere to justify getting two hexes at 1st level.


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QuidEst wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
The line reads
Quote:

At 1st

level, she gains either the blight hex or
slumber hex as a bonus hex.
I would interpret Bonus to mean Bonus.
Doesn’t that ability replace the first-level hex, or am I misremembering?

As written, it "alters" the hex gained at first level. It does not replace.


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Ultimate Wilderness wrote:

This alters patron and the hex gained at

1st level.

I think that it locks you into choosing Blight Hex or Slumber Hex as your level 1 Hex. If it weas not so, you would have an archetype that gives you an extra hex and an increased DC in some spells in exchange for nothing.


Ritual hex is interesting, trouble is with its casting time, not something one could do in a hurry. I also have known DM's not want to use the occult ritual but its something I'll keep in the back of my mind.

I can't find the spirit walker hex.

I don't like spell creation. She will get Acid Fog at level 11, which is handy.

Rime spell could be used with Snow ball, Frost fall, Ice storm. The other thing is she needs 3 feats for spell perfection.
Which I don't mind dropping, but I want something interesting to replace it. Not some hodge podge of random feats.

I've noticed the Scar discrepancy. I've fixed it.

I put weather control early because I want it to be a bit of a signature.
"Penelope Fall, always arrives with the rain." Is sort of the image I want for her.

Could perhaps swap Animal Skin and Ice Form but I really like Animal form for her character as well, being so nature orientated. That reminds me I don't know what familiar to give her. I'm thinking maybe a fox, I'm trying to think of what would qualify as an autumnal animal. O.o Fox is mostly cause they have the right color xD.

Summon Spirit kind of runs counter to the whole flavor of the Autumn Witch, its I agree an arguably brokenly powerful spell (but honestly at that level, most things arcane casters do is broken), but yeah the theme is supposed to be about the death part of the cycle of life and accepting death.
So I'm kinda hesitant to pluck spirits out of the aether willnilly.


QuidEst wrote:
Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:
The line reads
Quote:

At 1st

level, she gains either the blight hex or
slumber hex as a bonus hex.
I would interpret Bonus to mean Bonus.
Doesn’t that ability replace the first-level hex, or am I misremembering?

Not as written, it says alters first level hex and is listed as a bonus.

Dalindra wrote:
Ultimate Wilderness wrote:

This alters patron and the hex gained at

1st level.
I think that it locks you into choosing Blight Hex or Slumber Hex as your level 1 Hex. If it weas not so, you would have an archetype that gives you an extra hex and an increased DC in some spells in exchange for nothing.

The exchange is you're locked into a particular Patron. Which aren't the best patron's.

It may be a mistake, but as written it definitely doesn't replace your first level hex. And its not like Archetypes that give more than they take haven't been made before.
Pact Wizard, Empiricist Investigator and Primalist bloodrager spring to mind.


If it grants you an extra hex, how it exactly alters your 1st level hex?

As for the familiar, you can also consider a squirrel, a hedgehog or a bat. In autumn they are always busy gorging on fruit and insects to build up stores of body fat in readiness for hibernation. It's very autumn-centric.


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Dalindra wrote:
If it grants you an extra hex, how it exactly alters your 1st level hex?

I would say a bonus is an alteration.

I would also say that alteration is at best vague, open to interpretation where as Bonus is explicit and your trying to argue its a replacement is impossible since the word Bonus is there to describe it. Bonus is not open to interpretation. It may well be a mistake, it may well not be. Further conversation on it is pointless as far as I'm concerned, and not the point of this thread. Make an FAQ post if you want to further explore the issue.

Quote:


As for the familiar, you can also consider a squirrel, a hedgehog or a bat. In autumn they are always busy gorging on fruit and insects to build up stores of body fat in readiness for hibernation. It's very autumn-centric.

Hedgehog is a great idea! Thanks.


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:


I can't find the spirit walker hex.

Spirit Talker the feat, link .

Ritual Hex is probably preferable, because you get the hex for 24 hrs. It can also get you major and grand hexes if you can make the DC's.

I do however, wish that they would hurry up and make a witch hex to correspond with Witch Hex ; it is silly that Shaman's have better hex access than witches...


Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:


I put weather control early because I want it to be a bit of a signature.
"Penelope Fall, always arrives with the rain." Is sort of the image I want for her.

Totally support this decision. I took Weather Control for my witch's first Major Hex also. It's just really fun to play around with and can be very powerful.

Ice Tomb is great and was my level 12 choice, but the witch is not short on SoS options. Weather Control adds a whole new layer of enjoyment :)


Does the autumn witch get any defensive spells? The general witch list is light on those (especially if ironskin is disallowed) and I see a total lack of anything else in the character so far to save you and your d6/level HP from the enemy.


Pad300
I think I actually prefer spirit talker, I could take it again instead of extra hex, and it doesn’t rely on occult rituals being allowed. The issue though is again the flavour, having a chatting with ghosts doesn’t fit the autumn witch theme.

@Tsukiyo
Thanks :) I think it looks really fun

avr wrote:
Does the autumn witch get any defensive spells? The general witch list is light on those (especially if ironskin is disallowed) and I see a total lack of anything else in the character so far to save you and your d6/level HP from the enemy.

Not really, this is the list

2nd—ray of enfeeblement, 4th—create pitAPG, 6th—gentle repose, 8th—vitriolic mistUM, 10th—major creation, 12th—acid fog, 14th—caustic eruptionUM, 16th—horrid wilting, 18th—wail of the banshee.

They get vitriolic mist, but I’m my opinion it’s a horrible spell for a witch. That’s one reason I took fly at 4 to make sure I can start flying as soon as possible.

I think she’d be relying on conjuration clouds and pits for her Defense, and also her summons, just to sort of clog up the field a bit.


It's not very polite to express your opinion and try to deny me the chance to express mine, so:

Bonus is not open to interpretation? I do not agree. My interpretation is that the witch gets the Hex class ability at level 1 and then a bonus hex at level 1, 2, etc... If you look at how the class is written you can see it:

Witch wrote:
Hex: Witches learn a number of magic tricks, called hexes, that grant them powers or weaken foes.

That is the ability description

Witch wrote:
At 1st level, a witch gains one hex of her choice.

And that is the Bonus Hex.

So, my interpretation is that the "Bonus Hex" that the witch obtains with the archetype is the hex that the vanilla class grants. This explains the "Bonus Hex" and the "Alter 1st level Hex" part.

And now that both of us have expressed our opinion I think we can politely agree to disagree. I am not interested in keep arguing, either.


Dalindra wrote:
It's not very polite

The irony of trying to take the high ground about manners whilst insisting on derailing a thread. Stop.

Quote:


to express your opinion and try to deny me the chance to express mine, so:

You have already expressed it, the expression of your opinion is what I replied to. You’re now re-iterating and justifying. And I denied you nothing, I told you to make an FAQ post if you wish and stop derailing my thread.

You failed to do so and had the gall to lecture me about manners at the same time. Laughable.

Quote:


Contrived bastardisation of the definition of bonus

By your definition every class feature is a bonus. It’s not.

Bonus spells for high casting stats are a bonus.
Spells themselves are not.
Your first level hex isn’t a bonus hex, it’s youre first level hex, which is why no-where is it referred to as a bonus.

Quote:


And now that both of us have expressed our opinion I think we can politely agree to disagree. I am not interested in keep arguing, either.

You’re not being polite. You’re derailing my thread for no good reason when you could easily make you’re own.

Shadow Lodge

So first level fighters only get one feat because they have a "bonus feat"? Nah, not buying that.


Please go make another thread concerning this issue.

To re-iterate I’m looking for advice on other potential directions to take the seasons witch in from a build standpoint.

Not an endless debate about lazy wording which needs to be FAQ’d.


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What does this witch do before caustic eruption other than be a normal witch? It seems like you're building an awful lot for a single +1 DC on a single spell at 13+. A quick glance shows Eruptive Pustules as the only other acid spell on the witch list?

It seems like if you wanted to take advantage of your season bonus, winter, summer, or spring would be substantially easier to do.

Additionally, Mark Seifter did comment on the 1 vs. 2 hexes at 1st level in a different thread.

Shadow Lodge

A samsaran could pick up acid spells from the sorc/wiz list.


Given that hexes and many conjuration spells ignore SR how necessary is Spell Penetration? Could it be worth taking something a bit more interesting?


cavernshark wrote:

What does this witch do before caustic eruption other than be a normal witch? It seems like you're building an awful lot for a single +1 DC on a single spell at 13+. A quick glance shows Eruptive Pustules as the only other acid spell on the witch list?

It seems like if you wanted to take advantage of your season bonus, winter, summer, or spring would be substantially easier to do.

Additionally, Mark Seifter did comment on the 1 vs. 2 hexes at 1st level in a different thread.

She is just a normal witch with a slightly better slumber before that point. Although it is worthy of note the patron grants Acid cloud.

That’s kind of the point of this thread, have you any suggestions for something more interesting.

I didn’t chose the Autumn season for its mechanics but rather it’s flavor.

I chose to build for caustic eruption simply to take advantage of the archetype since it didn’t make sense to ignore it.
Pre that shed focus on summons and control spells and probably Rime spell. Using her hexes to further boost flavor and utility.

Winter is obviously the easiest to take advantage of since witches flavor cold spells but I didn’t like that flavor. Or really ever wanted to make a winter witch.

It’s nice to have Marks’ opinion and I agree with him that’s probably what it was meant to say but it isn’t what it says now.

If/when there is an FAQ about it I’m sure it will agree. Although if it doesn’t seem to tricky to achieve I may alter my build to reflect future change.
It’s mostly just frustrating that these sorts of things don’t get picked up on by someone before release.

@Dragonborn3
True, not too worried about picking up Acid spells, the bonus the archetype provides isn’t exactly mouth watering. Maybe the Sams would work for flavor though. I’ll have a think.

@Decimus
Good point! At the very least that provides me with the hex I lose from the whole Bonus nonesense.


Quick question - where does it mention that the save DC for the slumber hex is increased? All I'm seeing is that acid spells get a +1 to their DC - but I could be missing something.

Otherwise agreeing with the notion of questioning the value of spell penetration. Create Pit + Slumber should keep you covered at low levels, maybe you could even consider Swamp's Grasp as a potential hex some time down the line to fit with the theme / have more battlefield control at your disposal?


@Chromantic Durgon: I felt that you were picking on me because I did not agree with you; that was the reason for saying that you were not being very polite. I felt personally attacked for trying to help you.

Sorry for derailing your thread.


Pounce wrote:
Quick question - where does it mention that the save DC for the slumber hex is increased? All I'm seeing is that acid spells get a +1 to their DC - but I could be missing something.

I think I was confusing the Elvish alternate racial trait, Dreamspeaker, with a benefit of the Autumn archetype. My mistake.

Quote:


Otherwise agreeing with the notion of questioning the value of spell penetration. Create Pit + Slumber should keep you covered at low levels, maybe you could even consider Swamp's Grasp as a potential hex some time down the line to fit with the theme / have more battlefield control at your disposal?

Yes I think I do as well, seems pointless now I think about it.

Ooo swamp grasp hex is a nice idea

I’ll do some tweaking and get back to y’all looks like my witch ended up with more of a tune up than a re-wright but that’s alright.


Dalindra wrote:

@Chromantic Durgon: I felt that you were picking on me because I did not agree with you; that was the reason for saying that you were not being very polite. I felt personally attacked for trying to help you.

Sorry for derailing your thread.

I wasn’t and I’m sorry you felt attacked. If you look back other people had already raised the issue you mentioned and had it addressed by myself and other posters. I was frustrated to see it being raised again when I knew it wasn’t going to go anywhere fruitful.


Dalindra wrote:
If it grants you an extra hex, how it exactly alters your 1st level hex?

By altering your first level hex, it limits the archetypes you can use. [Assuming the Seasons witch can use witch archetypes. I don't have UW.]

/cevah


Cevah wrote:
Dalindra wrote:
If it grants you an extra hex, how it exactly alters your 1st level hex?

By altering your first level hex, it limits the archetypes you can use. [Assuming the Seasons witch can use witch archetypes. I don't have UW.]

/cevah

It's a pretty short archetype, only changing level 1 hex and patron.


I’d like a bit more from it honestly, the art and lore for it is pretty nice.


There's probably room somewhere for a "Patron Theme" (from Blood of the Coven) exclusively for the 4 season patrons.

I'm not sure if the design process for Blood of the Coven and Ultimate Wilderness overlapped at all, but the Patron Theme mechanic seems like a good way to balance out the Season Witch essentially getting a bonus feat for free. That is, you get a bonus for being tied to the seasons and a penalty for being tied to the seasons.


Sorry I haven’t come across this, what’s the patron theme?


Patron Themes are an option presented in Blood of the Coven - they sort of work like cleric subdomains for patrons, in a sense. Essentially, four patrons are grouped together due to some common overlying theme, and witches with those patrons can choose to take an altered version of that patron, gaining a bonus specific hex, altered patron spells, and a specific drawback. Also, you can't go against/change your patron without losing your hexes, spellcasting, and your familiar...

An example is the Fey Gifts Patron Theme, which includes the Agility, Enchantment, Trickery, and Winter patrons - it swaps out whatever spells the patron would normally give at 2nd, 4th, and 16th level, for disguise self, hideous laughter, and irresistible dance, respectively. In addition, you gain the charm hex at level 1 as a bonus hex, but you gain the drawback of that your GM can 1/day demand that you reroll any d20 that you've rolled (okay, it's saves, attack rolls, skill checks & ability checks, so... essentially any d20 roll) and take the worse result of the two.

Essentially PossibleCabbage is saying that there's a definite opportunity to make a Patron Theme with the "season" patrons, seeing as they are thematically linked :)


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Hero Lab definitely implements it as a bonus (additional) hex, btw. I'm now intrigued by the winter one.


The winter witch would be nicely for the kindly grandma theme.

Scarab Sages

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Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Okay so aside from the Shifter there are actually other things in UW and one of them is the Seasons Witch. Which I love, not gonna lie, partially because of the art.

She does look like she should be married to this guy, doesn't she?

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