How do you bind a qlippoth?


Advice


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Outside of “very carefully”, of course.

I’m not talking about planar binding, either; that’s the easy part. What I’m trying to do is make it stay put without killing anything. The binding spell is out of the question, due to qlippoths being immune to mind-affecting effects.


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Inflict a disabling amount of int/wis/cha damage on it...


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Unfortunately, the rules and flavor text on qlippoths are inconsistent. Specifically, in flavor text we're told that they ignore and shrug off the commands of binding casters: "While qlippoth may bargain with mortal spellcasters, they don’t feel bound to follow such agreements, and often blatantly disregard the orders of their binders, no matter the consequences." Meanwhile, it's RAW that they're immune to mind-affecting effects. That's fine, except that Planar Binding and Planar Ally are not mind-affecting effects. Other than that bit of flavor text, there's no rule that gives qlippoth immunity to these spells. Under RAW, you should be able to call a qlippoth and force it to service in the exact same way as any other evil outsider.

Oh, and one of the splatbooks threw in a rule that "When called via spells like planar ally that require opposed Charisma checks or similar mechanics in order for the conjuring spellcaster to secure the outsider’s aid, evil humanoids take a –6 penalty when interacting with qlippoth due to the sin in their souls". Yeah, so neutral and good casters are better at calling qlippoth? Don't think they thought that one through. Also, you're never going to get a qlippoth by Planar Ally unless you worship a qlippoth lord, in which case you're almost certainly evil. So this is a rare example of Paizo making it mechanically (as opposed to aesthetically) worse to worship a particular deity: basically, if you're a qlippoth worshipper, you don't get to use Planar Ally.

But anyway. If you accept the splatbook rule, then calling a qlippoth with Planar Binding becomes very difficult for most casters who would want to do it. But I would say that if you do manage to make the opposed Cha check, the qlippoth is bound to service just like any other outsider, flavor text notwithstanding.

Doug M.


I think I also heard somewhere that the Iavathos qlippoths did not follow through on any attempts to call them, making them essentially unbindable. But since that’s flavor text, that can be ignored, right?


Reduxist wrote:
I think I also heard somewhere that the Iavathos qlippoths did not follow through on any attempts to call them, making them essentially unbindable. But since that’s flavor text, that can be ignored, right?

As a very general rule, if it's a power or a weakness that a monster has, it should be in the monster's stat block. So if a monster is uncallable, its stat block should contain something like "Uncallable [Ex]: This creature is immune to conjuration (summoning) effects, including Planar Binding and Planar Ally." See, e.g., the ceustodaemon's "Drawn to Service".

In this particular case, there's one throwaway line in Ultimate Magic: "The powerful and singular iathavos never answers the call of a binder, even an epic one." Well, that's fine, but in the Bestiary description it specifically says that "The iathavos can be called via the most powerful spells, such as gate". So that's not really consistent. You could argue that it can be "called" but not "bound", but gate lets you control the creature you call as long as you meet the prerequisites -- it's right there in the spell description, RAW as anything.

Paizo hasn't given guidance on this, but my take is (1) when in doubt, go with the stat block; and then (2) go with what's in the Bestiary description, insofar as it's consistent with the statblock; and only then (3) go with splatbook stuff and flavor text, and only insofar as it's consistent with 1 and 2.

Doug M.


Incidentally, note that to use Planar Binding on the iathavos you need at least three of the following: Augment Calling (qlippoth), a Blackfire Pact (requires least three levels of Blackfire Adept), Spell Perfection, and/or a Caller's Feather. The feather is pretty standard gear, and using Spell Perfection on Greater Planar Ally is a defensible tactic. But Augment Calling (qlippoth) is a feat that only a chaotic evil lunatic would take in-game, and that is also very suboptimal mechanically (because there aren't many high-powered qlippoth and they're mechanically not that great compared to other outsiders of the same CR, and also the -6 on Cha checks thing). Blackfire Adept, let's not even talk about it: it's a very suboptimal PrC that has nothing going for it but some fun flavor text. And taking a qlippoth as your Blackfire Pact target is a double-dumb idea because see above. Oh and also, in-game, calling the iathavos means you've probably caused the end of your particular game world (though it may be delayed for years or millenia).

So, while calling an iathavos is theoretically just barely possible, it's really in the realm of theorycrafting. You'd need a high-level CE spellcaster who is a deliberately suboptimal build, lopsidedly focused on calling qlippoth, and willing to end the world. I mean, you can come up with an NPC backstory to justify anything, but it really seems a stretch.

(That said, if the idea tickles your fancy? You could probably build a fun scenario for high level PCs around "stop Bob the crazy sorceror before he summons the iathavos and dooms the world". Heck, maybe there's an end-the-world cult that's been training evil casters for generations, trying to produce a perfect Bob who can pull it off.)

Doug M.


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Duct tape.

Lots and lots of duct tape.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
But Augment Calling (qlippoth) is a feat that only a chaotic evil lunatic would take in-game, and that is also very suboptimal mechanically (because there aren't many high-powered qlippoth and they're mechanically not that great compared to other outsiders of the same CR, and also the -6 on Cha checks thing).

You don't need to take Augment Calling (qlippoth) - the feat lets you pick any subtype of outsider, so Augment Calling (chaotic) or Augment Calling (evil) will work just fine. And Augment Calling (evil) is a solid choice for all sorts of binders, both thematically and mechanically.


Avoron wrote:
Douglas Muir 406 wrote:
But Augment Calling (qlippoth) is a feat that only a chaotic evil lunatic would take in-game, and that is also very suboptimal mechanically (because there aren't many high-powered qlippoth and they're mechanically not that great compared to other outsiders of the same CR, and also the -6 on Cha checks thing).
You don't need to take Augment Calling (qlippoth) - the feat lets you pick any subtype of outsider, so Augment Calling (chaotic) or Augment Calling (evil) will work just fine. And Augment Calling (evil) is a solid choice for all sorts of binders, both thematically and mechanically.

That seems like a pretty powerful interpretation of the rules, and could make binders everywhere more powerful. I’m wondering if I should make this question a FAQ candidate:

Does (evil) count as an eligible, selectable subtype for Augment Calling? Evil is an outsider subtype, but the original design was probably to specialize among certain outsider species, rather than paint broadly with entirely alignments.


I mean, "Outsider ([alignment])" is a valid choice for a ranger favored enemy, why wouldn't it be for Augment Calling?


Hmm... I could see an argument for not allowing it, not only because of the balance issues, but also because (evil) might not technically count as a "subtype of outsider" since it also applies to several non-outsiders, like Cthulhu and grim reapers.


I just asked this question in Rules Questions, so hopefully we can get a definite answer.


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Yeah no. "Choose a subtype of outsider, such as angel or elemental." [Evil] is a subtype, but it's not a subtype of outsider. For instance, graeae have the evil subtype, but are monstrous humanoids, not outsiders. There's possible confusion because most things with the evil subtype are also outsiders, but the "such as" clause makes it pretty clear what they're talking about.

Also, yeah, balance -- if you could choose [evil], this feat would be pretty OP.

Doug M.


Reduxist wrote:
I just asked this question in Rules Questions, so hopefully we can get a definite answer.

Unless it’s a hardcover book source or a big PFS issue they don’t answer FAQs. This is neither.


Xenocrat wrote:
Reduxist wrote:
I just asked this question in Rules Questions, so hopefully we can get a definite answer.
Unless it’s a hardcover book source or a big PFS issue they don’t answer FAQs. This is neither.

Oh. Well, crap.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

Well, a related question would be "Can I get a Bane (Outsider [Evil]) Weapon?", and the bane weapon ability is straight up core...


Qlippoth wrote:
They have a particular hatred of children and pregnant women, and if given a choice between harming someone already dying or close to death and someone with a full life ahead of them, they always choose to attack the latter, save for the rare case where the death of an elder or a dying loved one might result in a chain reaction of death among the young.

Seems that the best way to keep a Qlippoth is to summon it in a School or Nursery, let it kill all within, then let it know you will do this for it again if it helps you.

Don’t bind it with magic, bind it with gifts.


To bring it back to the OP...

Reduxist wrote:
What I’m trying to do is make it stay put without killing anything. The binding spell is out of the question, due to qlippoths being immune to mind-affecting effects.

The qlippoth are pretty much designed to be difficult or impossible to bind in this manner. However, you could call one with Planar Binding or Planar Ally and require that it stay in one place for up to days/level. That's RAW-legal and would work great while it lasted.

If you want it to stay longer, you need to physically restrain it and then prevent it from teleporting or plane shifting away. There's a short list of items and effects that will do this. Dimensional Lock will do the trick, though it does allow SR, and is only days/level. A Hallow / Unhallow spell can include Dimensional Anchor; the anchor effect allows SR (frickin' SR, man) but if the SR check is made, the effect lasts for up to one year.

Prismatic Sphere is a pretty nifty spell that can be made permanent. I don't know if this spell blocks teleportation and Plane Shift. One of the spheres blocks "all magic", so maybe? If it does, then boom -- cast it, throw Permanancy, and you're well on your way to a qlippoth-proof jail cell.

Then there's Teleport Trap: it redirects teleportation in or out of an area, and can be made permanent. So if you can arrange for the trap to shunt all teleport attempts into something that will kill or permanently damage the qlippoth, then you could keep it in an ordinary physical cell with a Permanent Teleport Trap cast on it. Of course, this requires you to (1) develop a cell that can hold the qlippoth, and (2) develop a trap destination that can permanently damage or kill the qlippoth. Maybe your villainous lair is on the edge of a volcano, and the trap opens into a magma pool?

Finally, there are Dimensional Shackles. These are great, and will totally do the job, as long as the qlippoth fails its one-time Str check to break them. (I don't think any qlippoth have Escape Artist.) The only tricky bit there is getting them on the qlippoth.

cheers,

Doug M.


Oh, and Create Greater Demiplane with the dead magic feature and a portal that is set to "qlippoth: enter (y) exit (n)". That last bit is right on the edge of RAW but I think it's a reasonable gloss on the spell. And if your DM allows it (I would), that would totally do it. If your DM is a stickler, okay, you need something on or about the portal that will very effectively repel the qlippoth. If you can manage that, hey, the Create Demiplane spells can be made permanent! So all you need to do is get your qlippoth to walk (fly, flop, slither) through the portal into the demiplane and, boom: it's stuck forever, or at least until the creating wizard chooses to expel it.

If you want PCs to encounter the qlippoth, have a door with a Howl's Moving Castle style movable switch adjacent to it. (If you didn't see the movie, it's basically a clock hand / pointer.) Switch to the left, it's a normal door. Switch to the right, now it opens onto a private dead-magic demiplane that contains a seriously ticked off qlippoth. Obviously the PCs will need some compelling reason to go through the door...

Or: the wizard used a ritual instead of a standard spell. Since rituals can work any dang way you the DM choose (as long as they're more or less balanced), you can rule that the demiplane is wearing out, or collapsing, or that the spell duration is years/level and is now running out. Is it easier to deal with the qlippoth in the demiplane, or wait for it to break loose?

Doug M.


Douglas Muir 406 wrote:

To bring it back to the OP...

Reduxist wrote:
What I’m trying to do is make it stay put without killing anything. The binding spell is out of the question, due to qlippoths being immune to mind-affecting effects.

The qlippoth are pretty much designed to be difficult or impossible to bind in this manner. However, you could call one with Planar Binding or Planar Ally and require that it stay in one place for up to days/level. That's RAW-legal and would work great while it lasted.

If you want it to stay longer, you need to physically restrain it and then prevent it from teleporting or plane shifting away. There's a short list of items and effects that will do this. Dimensional Lock will do the trick, though it does allow SR, and is only days/level. A Hallow / Unhallow spell can include Dimensional Anchor; the anchor effect allows SR (frickin' SR, man) but if the SR check is made, the effect lasts for up to one year.

Prismatic Sphere is a pretty nifty spell that can be made permanent. I don't know if this spell blocks teleportation and Plane Shift. One of the spheres blocks "all magic", so maybe? If it does, then boom -- cast it, throw Permanancy, and you're well on your way to a qlippoth-proof jail cell.

Then there's Teleport Trap: it redirects teleportation in or out of an area, and can be made permanent. So if you can arrange for the trap to shunt all teleport attempts into something that will kill or permanently damage the qlippoth, then you could keep it in an ordinary physical cell with a Permanent Teleport Trap cast on it. Of course, this requires you to (1) develop a cell that can hold the qlippoth, and (2) develop a trap destination that can permanently damage or kill the qlippoth. Maybe your villainous lair is on the edge of a volcano, and the trap opens into a magma pool?

Finally, there are Dimensional Shackles. These are great, and will totally do the job, as long as the qlippoth fails its one-time Str check to break them. (I don't think any qlippoth have...

Why bother with the death pit if you could just redirect the teleport back into the cell?


The Sideromancer wrote:
Why bother with the death pit if you could just redirect the teleport back into the cell?

Because -- like an annoying lot of high level spells -- Teleport Trap allows both SR and a Will save. So if you just bounce the creature back into the cell, it can wait until its teleport recharges and keep trying until it succeeds.

Doug M.

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