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In an area covered in darkness,
using only darkvision and no other senses,
not knowing the individuals,
presuming similar gear with no identifying marks,
without the aid of magical enhancements to vision
(such as the ability to detect alignments, auras, etc.),
and with no further observation than an initial glance:
Would there be any discernable difference between drow and elves?
I think in conditions of light or low light coloration would be obvious, but if that is the only distinction then darkvision would not reveal the race. The creatures are the same type and subtype (humanoid, elf).
Of course, if you have only 60' darkvision and are pursuing drow who have 120' range, they may see you first and leave or take cover (unless you are very stealthy).
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Yes, Just watch a movie in black and white, the vision provided by Darkvision, and see if you can identify skin tone. You can!
Under old Infravision/Ultravision rules, no way, but darkvision it should be fine.
Yes, Just watch a movie in black and white, the vision provided by Darkvision, and see if you can identify skin tone. You can!
Under old Infravision/Ultravision rules, no way, but darkvision it should be fine.
I agree.
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It's very simple to discern if those knife-ears you're looking at are drow or elves in darkness, and it has nothing to do with skin color.
Drow have darkvision, elves do not.
So just watch if they're stumbling around blindly or moving about with confidence that they won't trip over themselves.
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I should have looked that one up. Yes I'm old school and still think about infravision and ultravision - but it says clearly in the current rules "black and white".
Our party elf has darkvision, as do all of the other party members - but not so for other elf allies, who probably wouldn't remain still in an area that was totally dark (they prefer low-light and would find that unnatural, plus they don't sleep).
Elves still need to sleep. They're just immune to magical sleep effects.
Prior editions of D&D had the non-sleeping elves, even the Pathfinder Nightmare spell identified Elves as "creatures that do not sleep", but since revised it to outsiders. I always hated that Desna was a goddess of dreams and of a race of creatures that did not sleep or dream.
But bit by bit, the Pathfinder and Golarian settings are moving away from it. But, pick up a first couple of printings of the CRB and you'll find the non-sleeping elves were RAW. Now, it's more "up to GM".
Those elves didn't sleep, but they did dream.
Prior editions of D&D had the non-sleeping elves, even the Pathfinder Nightmare spell identified Elves as "creatures that do not sleep", but since revised it to outsiders. I always hated that Desna was a goddess of dreams and of a race of creatures that did not sleep or dream.
But bit by bit, the Pathfinder and Golarian settings are moving away from it. But, pick up a first couple of printings of the CRB and you'll find the non-sleeping elves were RAW. Now, it's more "up to GM".
Non-sleeping elves were never in the Pathfinder core rulebook (As far as I know). The section of the rules in D&D that indicated elves didn't sleep was never made open content, so never appeared in Pathfinder.
There is some confusion because some Paizo material makes reference to it. Those books were written for 3.5 D&D, and predate Pathfinder.
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Yes. Drow are 20% cooler
Prior editions of D&D had the non-sleeping elves, even the Pathfinder Nightmare spell identified Elves as "creatures that do not sleep", but since revised it to outsiders. I always hated that Desna was a goddess of dreams and of a race of creatures that did not sleep or dream.
But bit by bit, the Pathfinder and Golarian settings are moving away from it. But, pick up a first couple of printings of the CRB and you'll find the non-sleeping elves were RAW. Now, it's more "up to GM".
Non-sleeping elves were never in the Pathfinder core rulebook (As far as I know). The section of the rules in D&D that indicated elves didn't sleep was never made open content, so never appeared in Pathfinder.
There is some confusion because some Paizo material makes reference to it. Those books were written for 3.5 D&D, and predate Pathfinder.
Well, not sure about "never", in my second printing edition of the CRB it says on page 316 in te Nightmare spell: "Creatures who don't sleep (such as Elves , but not half-elves) or dream are immune to this spell."
That led many many many players to interp P.218's "If the character does not need to sleep for some reason, he still must have 8 hours of restful calm before preparing any spells" to apply to Elves and the "immune to sleep" made it seem like prior editions. They since changed that wording.
Creative Director James Jacobs even chimed in on the topic saying: " Elves not sleeping is indeed relatively setting specific, and while trances are in Elves of Golarion, it's something we'll honestly probably be moving away from in Golarion. We've done a fair amount to reimagine our elves, and by having them sleep (or at least implying they sleep) does help to make Golarion's elves more Golarion and less Forgotten Realms"
So, I can see why there is confusion on the topic.
Put a symbol of death in an area of darkness.
Only drow will die.
Ignoring the 'you can still tell shading, even if things are in black and white' trope... there is another simple way to discern the races.
Drow doesn't have pupils. Their eyes are solid white or red. It is a rather forgettable line from the race entry, but a lot of the prominent pathfinder drow art seems to include it still (since it means that the artist doesn't have to color/draw as much, most likely, and it is a nice prominent feature stylistically).
So... yeah. Fairly easy to tell. This is also probably how drow infiltrators get caught when their disguise checks fail- this is not something you can cover up just by putting on white face.
Ignoring the 'you can still tell shading, even if things are in black and white' trope... there is another simple way to discern the races.
Drow doesn't have pupils. Their eyes are solid white or red. It is a rather forgettable line from the race entry, but a lot of the prominent pathfinder drow art seems to include it still (since it means that the artist doesn't have to color/draw as much, most likely, and it is a nice prominent feature stylistically).
So... yeah. Fairly easy to tell. This is also probably how drow infiltrators get caught when their disguise checks fail- this is not something you can cover up just by putting on white face.
Elves are the same way- well, that's not completely true, but they do have almost solid-color eyes. I think the idea is their pupil is their entire eye, buu I'm not 100% sure about that. In any case, both Drow and Elves have solid-color (or nearly solid-color) eyes.
Elves are the same way- well, that's not completely true, but they do have almost solid-color eyes. I think the idea is their pupil is their entire eye, buu I'm not 100% sure about that. In any case, both Drow and Elves have solid-color (or nearly solid-color) eyes.Ignoring the 'you can still tell shading, even if things are in black and white' trope... there is another simple way to discern the races.
Drow doesn't have pupils. Their eyes are solid white or red. It is a rather forgettable line from the race entry, but a lot of the prominent pathfinder drow art seems to include it still (since it means that the artist doesn't have to color/draw as much, most likely, and it is a nice prominent feature stylistically).
So... yeah. Fairly easy to tell. This is also probably how drow infiltrators get caught when their disguise checks fail- this is not something you can cover up just by putting on white face.
Maybe.
honestly, looking at the race entry, it looks like they confused iris (the colored bit of the eye) with pupils (the hole in the iris). Since pupils aren't really...colored ("large, vibrantly colored pupils"... for a hole).
Other descriptions (unsure of source, working off a wiki) uses this: "The irises of the elven race are far larger than those of other humanoids, often making it seem like they have little or no white in their eyes."
This would make more sense. It would be a somewhat normal eye, just without the whites- nice for 'not quite human, but still fairly similar' (heck, the eyes of dogs are similar). It also makes the drow entry make more sense (since it brings up the lack of pupils in the first place; it would have likely just said 'like regular elves, but red' otherwise).
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Telling dark elves from service elves seems easy
Telling dark elves from KISS exploring the underworld seems harder.
Telling dark elves from service elves seems easy
Telling dark elves from KISS exploring the underworld seems harder.
Normally, the pattern is a dead give away.... but there is that one area of overlap where it is hard to tell KISS from a drow from an incompetent surface infiltrator.*
*This fellow is incompetent because he didn't realize his make up dissolved in water, and it started to streak off and show some of his face underneath after he had a good cry session.
So be careful near the entrance to the underworld.
The vast difference in coloration would be obvious with Darkvision and not just in low light. Dark elves are coal black or dark purple in colour and the regular elf is pale and would be unlikely heavily suntanned. It's easy to tell the difference with Darkvision. if the Drow wanted to appear as regular elves they could use Disguise skill and apply makeup (and vice versa for eleves wanting to appear as Drow).
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Drow have darkvision, elves do not.
So just watch if they're stumbling around blindly or moving about with confidence that they won't trip over themselves.
Great: from now on I'll always kill any elf I meet who can see in the dark.
There aren't any other ways of attaining darkvision, are there? Probably not.
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@Matthew None whatsoever. :P
Also I think this thread is falling prey to the ol "We think of Pathfinder elves and drow the way they're actually depicted in art rather than the way the creative directors say they look" trap. One more reason the whole drow idea is bad. But elves in PF have many different skin tones and wouldn't have to be "heavily suntanned" to look dark.
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@Matthew None whatsoever. :P
Also I think this thread is falling prey to the ol "We think of Pathfinder elves and drow the way they're actually depicted in art rather than the way the creative directors say they look" trap. One more reason the whole drow idea is bad. But elves in PF have many different skin tones and wouldn't have to be "heavily suntanned" to look dark.
Thank you. I really don't understand the assumption that elves have to have pale skin. Their CRB description indicates that they tend toward skin tones that match their native surroundings.
And I agree, the whole "drow = dark skinned elves = evil" tends to result in Unfortunate Implications™. I appreciated Dragonlance's take on dark elves--they were simply regular elves cast out by their kin for whatever reason and thus had no difference in appearance.
@Matthew None whatsoever. :P
Either they are a drow, or a darn dirty spellcaster. My witch hunter rage power says that there is not problem with this approach.
Actually, just attack elves on sight in general.
check their sexes... it's well known that drow hunting parties are almost exclusively male.
You can also do a fashion check... spider motif's are a bad sign. Throw a hand woven MW basket out there... elves will admire the craftsmanship, drow will step on it.
Not based on skin color. You can't tell if an is purple-skinned with Darkvision. The glowing eyes are the real giveaway.
It depend on the setting... In Golarion Drow does not exist... Every Elf will tell you that Drows are a tales mothers uses to frighten their children... And every Lantern Bearer will do eveything they can to ensure you're not going to talk about Drow everywhere... :p
From the Player Companion "Elves of Golarion" we know that : "Elves are recognizable by their physical beauty, stylish dress, pointed ears, and irises and pupils so large that the whites of their eyes are scarcely visible around their edges. Skin and eye color are as variable
as visible light, but elves are typically fair-skinned with eyes colored blue, green, gold, or violet."
So while the vast majority of Elves are fair skinned some are not...
And in Darklands Revisited we've got : "Since their initial foray into the Darklands, the drow race has adapted physically as well as culturally to their new surroundings. Their skin coloration ranges from
shades of midnight blue to rich purples, allowing them to blend in with their underground environs."
And the NPC description of "The Surface Caller", a female Drow Sorceress/Swashbuckler : "This blue-skinned elf has milk-white eyes, a glowing punching dagger, and a shield embossed with a demonic face."
Even in plain daylight you don't know she's a Drow, she appear as a blue elf for almost everyone except for the ones that knows Drows exists in Golarion... ;)
It depend on the setting... In Golarion Drow does not exist... Every Elf will tell you that Drows are a tales mothers uses to frighten their children... And every Lantern Bearer will do eveything they can to ensure you're not going to talk about Drow everywhere... :p
After the... I think it was the Second Darkness plotline, drow have stopped being a secret. They're still not public knowledge (because not everyone bothers to stay up to date with elven subraces... "Three elves walk into a bar. Now there are bar-elves.") but you can find out about them and the Lantern Bearers have taken a step back from "killing everyone who knows the secret".
After the... I think it was the Second Darkness plotline, drow have stopped being a secret. They're still not public knowledge (because not everyone bothers to stay up to date with elven subraces... "Three elves walk into a bar. Now there are bar-elves.") but you can find out about them and the Lantern Bearers have taken a step back from "killing everyone who knows the secret".
Really, interesting... I haven't read this campaign 'cause I'm not the one scheduled to master it... So depending on the timeline in GOlarion Drow are a bit more known... But I imagine that for most non-elf it's like "Oh there's a tribe of evil elves now..." :)
I would guess that what people know about Drow after Second Darkness depends strongly upon where they are, and whether the Lantern Bearers in their area have gotten (and decided to obey) the message not to murderhobo anyone who tries to tell the truth . . . I wonder if in some places different factions of Lantern Bearers consider each other to be traitors, and try to murderhobo each other . . . .