Trying to catch a rulebreaking cheater!


Rules Questions

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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It is not appropriate to call people cheaters and other insults while trying to determine if their character is fully following the rules.


I have a question from the original thread about getting 3 shocking grasps off in a turn.

If you hold onto shocking grasp and do not use the free action, can't you use it late in a full round attack, subbing one of the attacks for it?

The original idea was have a weapon hold one, fast a second one and hold onto it, go invisible, get behind enemy (you need haste or BAB +6), attack once and let weapon discharge, use spell strike on the second hit, then spell combat for the last hit.


You cant do that because if you cast another touch spell of any kind while holding charges, the first spell expires.The weapon can't 'hold' anything. You also have to use Spell Combat as a full round action, like twf. You can, however, take one grasp from last round, spell combat and deliver your normal attack first which would spellstrike, then cast, then use your free attack to spellstrike again.


Is there not a spell storing enchantment for weapons?


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Is it just me, or is part of this thread missing?


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Indeed. Enough that the entire thread should probably be deleted. It is almost senseless (though I can tell it relates to the perpetual magus spellstrike/spell combat debate).

Scarab Sages

SorrySleeping wrote:
Is there not a spell storing enchantment for weapons?

There is, and that is one of the elements used in a suggestion on the deleted thread.

However, one thing that catches people out, is that a literal reading of Spellstrike only gives you the ability to substitute a weapon attack in place of the free touch attack, at the point of casting.

(This free attack is part of the Touch Attacks rules in the Magic chapter, and how casters are able to deliver touch attack spells as part of the casting.)

Hold the charge, and you forfeit the opportunity to make that 'free touch attack'. For any regular caster with a touch spell, they can either discharge it for free as part of the casting, or they can make an attack in a later round, any later attack is not free, and uses up the appropriate action type (usually standard for single melee attack, or full round to use it as part of a full attack action).

Therefore, if you don't discharge it the round it's cast, you lose the opportunity to convert said free touch attack into a 'weapon attack with spell rider effect'.

So (deep breath), if you step forward with blade in one hand, and spell fizzing away on the other, with no free attack, you can't declare Spell Combat, because you have no free casting hand.
You can't get rid of the spell via Spellstrike, because you opted not to at the point of casting.
The only way you can get rid of the charge (which you need to do, to have a free hand for future casting) is to

1) attack with that hand (standard action), which prevents declaring a full action Spell Combat, or

2) attack with stored spell and attack with your weapon, by declaring full attack with two weapons (blade + hand). This is a specific full round action, that prevents you also declaring a Spell Combat (a different full round action). In the same way you can't declare full attack and withdraw, or full attack and cast spell with 1 round casting time.

And if you attack with blade in one hand and held spell in the other you're applying the -2 penalties for both, assuming you have the Two Weapon Fighting feat (if not the penalties are worse).

And one of the often argued points, when the class came out, was players not accepting that they needed Two Weapon Fighting to fight effectively with a blade plus held charge, or suffer larger penalties than the best case minus two.
There was a common misunderstanding, that Spell Combat was TWF, or counted as TWF, or could be used as a prerequisite for other feats on the TWF tree, all expectations which had to be deflated, to the annoyance of people who'd read what they wanted to read, and built unrealistic expectations.

You can get multiple spells off in a round, using a spell storing weapon, and/or quickened spells, but they completely irrelevant to this class, being available to anyone, even a wizard.

And none of which alters the situation called out in the deleted original post, which was a player using Spell Combat and Spellstrike correctly.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

There is no text in the description that says spellstrike must be "declared at the time of casting," so a stored spell can be used through the weapon in any later round. You only lose the "free" attack if you don't use it immediately, as well as preclude spell combat if you want to keep the held charge. In fact, the text specifically says

PRD wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Bold mine.


taks wrote:
There is no text in the description that says spellstrike must be "declared at the time of casting," so a stored spell can be used through the weapon in any later round. You only lose the "free" attack if you don't use it immediately, as well as preclude spell combat if you want to keep the held charge. In fact, the text specifically says
PRD wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Bold mine.

Spell Combat lets you choose if you wish to make melee attacks first or cast a spell first, it's not really simultaneous. If I have a held Shocking Grasp, I can choose to Spell Combat and swing with the held spell via Spellstrike with the regular attacks allotted before I am required to cast another spell (which would make the held spell dissipate).

I will say that it's risky business to try and Spell Combat with a held spell, especially when you don't have iteratives or have a significant risk of missing the target, but the fact of the matter is that the pay off can certainly be worth it.


taks wrote:
There is no text in the description that says spellstrike must be "declared at the time of casting," so a stored spell can be used through the weapon in any later round. You only lose the "free" attack if you don't use it immediately, as well as preclude spell combat if you want to keep the held charge. In fact, the text specifically says
PRD wrote:
Spellstrike (Su): At 2nd level, whenever a magus casts a spell with a range of “touch” from the magus spell list, he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack.

Bold mine.

The part that would (in my reading at least) allow using spellstrike for a held charge is he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack


Snorter wrote:
The only way you can get rid of the charge (which you need to do, to have a free hand for future casting) is to ...

You missed one, I think

3) If you cast another touch spell while holding a charge, it overrides the currently held charge. Doing this should let you spell combat, spell strike again, though you lose the original spell

PRD wrote:
Touch Spells and Holding the Charge: In most cases, if you don't discharge a touch spell on the round you cast it, you can hold the charge (postpone the discharge of the spell) indefinitely. You can make touch attacks round after round until the spell is discharged. If you cast another spell, the touch spell dissipates.

I can certainly sympathize with the <removed> OPs confusion. If there is a magus in your game, you better do your homework. Otherwise you'll be wrong and made to look foolish...


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Andy Brown wrote:
The part that would (in my reading at least) allow using spellstrike for a held charge is he can deliver the spell through any weapon he is wielding as part of a melee attack

Yes, and whenever, not when declared before casting.

The statement that spellstrike must be declared when casting is simply incorrect.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
justaworm wrote:
I can certainly sympathize with the <removed> OPs confusion. If there is a magus in your game, you better do your homework. Otherwise you'll be wrong and made to look foolish...

Agreed. The magus is a complicated class, one I don't recommend for newbies or people that simply want a romp through the game. It is the most fun class I've ever played, however, with a close second to the investigator.


Anyone got a link to the thread he mentioned in the (now deleted) OP? Was going to have a read of it but all the posts with the link got deleted before I got around to it.


ShadowFighter88 wrote:
Anyone got a link to the thread he mentioned in the (now deleted) OP? Was going to have a read of it but all the posts with the link got deleted before I got around to it.

It was a link to Grick's Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat. Possibly the most favorited post of the entire messageboard.


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Gisher wrote:
ShadowFighter88 wrote:
Anyone got a link to the thread he mentioned in the (now deleted) OP? Was going to have a read of it but all the posts with the link got deleted before I got around to it.
It was a link to Grick's Guide to Touch Spells, Spellstrike, and Spell Combat. Possibly the most favorited post of the entire messageboard.

Ah, cheers. Knew it was popular but couldn't remember the title or that it was that popular.

Scarab Sages

I'm fine if the thread disappears, even though I made a long post, it was something I needed to do, to get my own thoughts in order, prior to allowing someone to play the class at a table of mine, and I've saved the text elsewhere.

It also caused me to question one of my assumptions, over delivering held charges in a later round, so I'll be looking to find the official answer on that.

Oh, look. I'm in that linked thread.
Another player was playing a magus, I sometimes had to cover his PC in his absence, and we were all a bit fed up of having to explain it to another player, who kept querying it...deja vu.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

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Folks, I am deeply sorry for the confusion here. I made my mod comment and then determined I should just remove the whole thread. I got confused with the duplicate thread and too many open tabs and I thought I had hidden the whole thread when it was still visible. I've now cleaned it up and I've left a handful of comments that seemed to be providing some people with some usefulness/context/references. Again, I apologize for all the confusion!

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