I haven't seen the book yet. We've all heard the noise about shifters but I care about other stuff. Are there any cool archetypes? I'm especially curious about hunter archetypes. Any cool new animal companion options?
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One of the best archetypes that I haven't seen people talk about is the Saurian Rider. For when your cavalier mount absolutely must be a T-Rex.
And (IMO) the number of interesting Kineticist archetypes has increased by 300%! (From 1 to 4.)
I.e.: All 3 of the Kineticist archetypes are really cool: oozing with flavor, with enough perks to make them worth considering, and enough drawbacks to not make it a no-brainer.
The Terrakineticist in particular is one that really improves upon reflection. At first, it seems not great because your abilities are basically hostage to your environment. But then you think about it more, and realize that...
—whenever you’re doing, say, a bit of underwater/underground/jungle/etc exploration adventure stuff, you can get great abilities for that setting,
—niche wild talents which seem too specialized to use wild talents on (“I’d have to be near water/underground/jungle/etc for that to be useful!”) are suddenly great picks,
—those who feel the class is relatively static given the low number of wild talents now get an archetype which allows them to play a bunch of different kinds of characters,
—and so on.
Really cool!
There are two monk archetypes that look interesting to me. Water Dancer monk adds Kineticist stuff, I think. Might finally look at Occult classes after playing this monk. Menhir guardian gives you shifter claws which is neat but a huge step down from Unarmed Damage, while giving you a fort save Bullrush.
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The section on companion creatures is great. Lots of new options, and some of the plant companions are really strong. The Rhamphorhynchus also got a reprint, and with it a minor buff.
The Avenging Beast is another vigilante with an animal form, though access to Hunter spells makes this one seem like it might be the best. The Feral Champion (a Warpriest archetype) is also pretty great, it gets Wild Shape and claws instead of a sacred weapon.
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Flamewarden (Breath of Life) Ranger and Gree Knight (nigh-unkillable) Cavalier and Sylvan Trickster (Hexes AND DR) Rogue are really sweet.
And there’s an entire chapter on companions and companion feats and archetypes.
If sylvan trickster could be stacked with eldritch scoundrel I'd be a happy man.
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There are two archetypes I'm particularly interested in:
The filidh bard casts as a divine caster instead of arcane. Sort of a druidic bard.
The jungle stalker hunter. Gives up animal companion for "double" animal focus as if its companion were dead, and a number of party utility abilities like tactician and breath of life, and the ranger's survival suite.
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I'm personally intrigued by the Geomancer Occultist. I'm already in love with Occultists as they are, but the spell list changing depending on the environment opens up so much versatility. It's definitely not a good or particularly strong archetype, but I just love weirdness.
I like a lot of them, and of the ones that haven't been mentioned above, here's a few.
Skirmisher (Fighter) gets more skill points, and specializes in light armor, allowing them to move faster, and can choose a variable bonus that matches the Bravery bonus, as well as a bonus to Reflex saves against traps, natural hazards, and environmental effects. They also get a scaling dodge bonus to AC in light or no armor, and eventually a constant miss chance when targeting them at high levels. I like this a lot.
Viking (Fighter) loses heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies, can demoralize more easily instead of bravery, and gets AC bonuses when using a shield (and non-heavy or no armor). Also gains Rage at 5th level, and can select rage powers in the place of bonus feats.
Elementalist (Oracle) replaces the spell list, gains additional elemental languages, gains an elemental subtype at 11th with an associated benefit, and at 20th gets Elemental Spell for free on any spell without changing the casting time, changing which element as you please, and with bonuses on crits.
Stormwalker (Ranger) has to take the ranged combat style, is able to add shock to weapons they wield, can move through wind without hindrance (and ranged attacks ignore non-magical wind), and gains an ability called Flash Step that lets them teleport via lightning and make a ranged attack in the midst of it, with an upgraded version.
All of the ones I've seen look fairly balanced to me. One of the ones I'm most hesitant about is the Sylvan Trickster, but honestly, it's MAD enough that I don't think it's a game-breaker. It's almost a slightly more combat-based Mesmerist, in some ways... just in my opinion.
The Flamewarden, as much as I love it, loses Evasion, Improved Evasion, Hunters Bond, and some other abilities for their various phoenix-themed abilities, so you're not giving up nothing, that's for sure.
The Water Dancer Monk archetype is, in my opinion, everything the Monk should have been, and I am literally ecstatic to play one of these in the future. Works on the Unchained Monk and the sheer number of alternate features you can pick up (especially through Quiggong powers) make it fairly versatile.
I've built a mock Water Dancer up to 12th level... and it is a fairly versatile in what it can do. Tank, damage deal (ranged and physical), battlefield control, healing, status removal, status infliction, etc...
I once played a multi-classed Monk/Water Kineticist in a one-shot game. That Water Dancer archetype is pretty much everything that I wished that character could have been.
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There are two archetypes I'm particularly interested in:
The filidh bard casts as a divine caster instead of arcane. Sort of a druidic bard.
Oh the irony :P
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The Water Dancer Monk archetype is, in my opinion, everything the Monk should have been, and I am literally ecstatic to play one of these in the future. Works on the Unchained Monk and the sheer number of alternate features you can pick up (especially through Quiggong powers) make it fairly versatile.
I've built a mock Water Dancer up to 12th level... and it is a fairly versatile in what it can do. Tank, damage deal (ranged and physical), battlefield control, healing, status removal, status infliction, etc...
It actually doesn't work on unchained monk. No archetype does unless it explicitly says it does. Yes, you can ignore it for your home game, but as written that's how it works.
It actually doesn't work on unchained monk. No archetype does unless it explicitly says it does. Yes, you can ignore it for your home game, but as written that's how it works.The Water Dancer Monk archetype is, in my opinion, everything the Monk should have been, and I am literally ecstatic to play one of these in the future. Works on the Unchained Monk and the sheer number of alternate features you can pick up (especially through Quiggong powers) make it fairly versatile.
I've built a mock Water Dancer up to 12th level... and it is a fairly versatile in what it can do. Tank, damage deal (ranged and physical), battlefield control, healing, status removal, status infliction, etc...
It doesn't work because it replaces abilities that the Unchained Monk doesn't get, such as Quivering Palm, Slow Fall, and Abundant Step.
An archetype that confines its changes to features that are common to the standard and unchained monks would work -- but I am unaware of any such archetypes at present.
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It actually doesn't work on unchained monk. No archetype does unless it explicitly says it does. Yes, you can ignore it for your home game, but as written that's how it works.The Water Dancer Monk archetype is, in my opinion, everything the Monk should have been, and I am literally ecstatic to play one of these in the future. Works on the Unchained Monk and the sheer number of alternate features you can pick up (especially through Quiggong powers) make it fairly versatile.
I've built a mock Water Dancer up to 12th level... and it is a fairly versatile in what it can do. Tank, damage deal (ranged and physical), battlefield control, healing, status removal, status infliction, etc...
It doesn't work because it replaces abilities that the Unchained Monk doesn't get, such as Quivering Palm, Slow Fall, and Abundant Step.
An archetype that confines its changes to features that are common to the standard and unchained monks would work -- but I am unaware of any such archetypes at present.
It also wouldn't be mathematically balanced on an unchained monk because it relies on trades involving chained flurry that have more impact than trading unchained flurry does (due to unchained's stronger flurryless chassis).
It actually doesn't work on unchained monk. No archetype does unless it explicitly says it does. Yes, you can ignore it for your home game, but as written that's how it works.
Just wanted to know if you have a link to that ruling. Before I shut down the combination, I just want to make sure. The Unchained Monk can select many of the powers the Water Dancer replaces with its Ki Power ability, so I might make an exception either way in a home game.
It also wouldn't be mathematically balanced on an unchained monk because it relies on trades involving chained flurry that have more impact than trading unchained flurry does (due to unchained's stronger flurryless chassis).
I can see your point, thank you. Either way, I will build a few monks vs unchained monks with this archetype and compare their capabilities (along with different levels of optimization) before I make my decision.
It also wouldn't be mathematically balanced on an unchained monk because it relies on trades involving chained flurry that have more impact than trading unchained flurry does (due to unchained's stronger flurryless chassis).I can see your point, thank you. Either way, I will build a few monks vs unchained monks with this archetype and compare their capabilities (along with different levels of optimization) before I make my decision.
It's only at a glance, but if you reduced the Unchained monk back to 3/4 BAB as part of the flurry trade and kept all the rest mostly similar, replacing ki powers and moving the levels you get the replacement powers accordingly, I think it should work out.
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It also wouldn't be mathematically balanced on an unchained monk because it relies on trades involving chained flurry that have more impact than trading unchained flurry does (due to unchained's stronger flurryless chassis).
I get the numbers issue, but I gotta say it's a huge buzzkill to get this really cool monk rework in Unchained and then have to deal with what feels like the overwhelming majority of new archetypes (especially the more interesting and comprehensive ones) being incompatible.
I get the numbers issue, but I gotta say it's a huge buzzkill to get this really cool monk rework in Unchained and then have to deal with what feels like the overwhelming majority of new archetypes (especially the more interesting and comprehensive ones) being incompatible.
It also wouldn't be mathematically balanced on an unchained monk because it relies on trades involving chained flurry that have more impact than trading unchained flurry does (due to unchained's stronger flurryless chassis).
It's the nature of the beast, unfortunately, when there's an upgraded rework that isn't a pure add like the rogue (and the monk needed more redesign than that), it needs two versions of the archetype and often would take a lot of space and sometimes make the presentation pretty complicated to have both versions at once. When we have to choose one or the other, the mandate we have is to support the CRB first. Unchained summoner gets a boost in this regard because original summoner is APG.
It actually doesn't work on unchained monk. No archetype does unless it explicitly says it does. Yes, you can ignore it for your home game, but as written that's how it works.Just wanted to know if you have a link to that ruling. Before I shut down the combination, I just want to make sure. The Unchained Monk can select many of the powers the Water Dancer replaces with its Ki Power ability, so I might make an exception either way in a home game.
The rule is in unchained itself.
With barb rogue and summoner previous archetypes are supported, but for monk no archetype is. This mean that any archetype for original version doesn't automatically go to monk.
The rule is in unchained itself.
With barb rogue and summoner previous archetypes are supported, but for monk no archetype is. This mean that any archetype for original version doesn't automatically go to monk.
The only mention I can find in the unchained book is:
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class feature to replace.
It definitely assumes that the Unchained Monk won't work with archetypes for the previous version of the Monk, but it does not come right out and say "You can't do it". So, if there happens to be an archetype released later that can be taken by the Unchained Monk, seems OK to me. If there is a FAQ that clearly says 'No, you can't do it', I'll listen.
Viking (Fighter) loses heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies, can demoralize more easily instead of bravery, and gets AC bonuses when using a shield (and non-heavy or no armor). Also gains Rage at 5th level, and can select rage powers in the place of bonus feats.
Wait. Doesn't the Viking already exist? Did it get a reprint?
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Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class feature to replace.
I think its pretty clear what was intended by that statement. If you want to twist it into "monk archetypes may not work, but they may also work" go for it. Don't expect most GMs to go for it though.
Viking (Fighter) loses heavy armor and tower shield proficiencies, can demoralize more easily instead of bravery, and gets AC bonuses when using a shield (and non-heavy or no armor). Also gains Rage at 5th level, and can select rage powers in the place of bonus feats.Wait. Doesn't the Viking already exist? Did it get a reprint?
It got a reprint and was tweaked a bit.
I personally have very, very few of the various companions and other supplements, so I have no idea what was reprinted and what wasn't. I just know the viking looks quite fun, though I'm personally not a huge fan of Rage in general.
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I personally have very, very few of the various companions and other supplements, so I have no idea what was reprinted and what wasn't. I just know the viking looks quite fun, though I'm personally not a huge fan of Rage in general.
The Viking (even without the tweaks) was great when I played one, though I multiclassed with a Titan Mauler barbarian (only a few levels). My halfling was feared up and down the sword coast (a retro-forgotten realms home game, with pathfinder rules).
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I personally have very, very few of the various companions and other supplements, so I have no idea what was reprinted and what wasn't. I just know the viking looks quite fun, though I'm personally not a huge fan of Rage in general.
The rage feature is what actually got better in UW, compared to the original People of the North version.
Good to know it improved! I'm a little sad that the Water Dancer isn't compatible with the unchained monk, but it is what it is. I haven't had the chance to actually play in a game in ages, anyway.
Finally, with the exception of the monk, these classes should work with any of the archetypes from previous books as long as the classes still have the appropriate class feature to replace.I think its pretty clear what was intended by that statement. If you want to twist it into "monk archetypes may not work, but they may also work" go for it. Don't expect most GMs to go for it though.
Twisting? Look, I can plainly see what the developers might have intended with that sentence. They did not expect the changes made to the Unchained Monk to be compatible with archetypes that alters the regular monk's chassis. However, that won't convince some people who want black and white rulings.
"Should be" implies possibility but doesn't rule out incompatibility. In the inverse of that implies incompatibility but does not rule out possibility. Let's rewrite that sentence a bit, but focus on the Unchained Monk, inverting 'should' (to should not) and the "as long as" (to unless):
"Finally, the Unchained monk should not work with any of the archetypes from previous books unless that class still has the appropriate class features to replace"
This is why they just need to have a plainly worded, "Unchained Monks can not take archetypes that modify the pre-existing Monk class."
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I kind of like that Brawler archetype that trades martial versatility for minor shifter aspects. Martial versatility is potentially very strong, but also has some bookkeeping issues (keep flash cards handy of all the combat feats you might want to use, I guess?)
Plus this lets me obsessively reference those classic kung fu films where they showcase various interpretations of animal styles.
I kind of like that Brawler archetype that trades martial versatility for minor shifter aspects. Martial versatility is potentially very strong, but also has some bookkeeping issues (keep flash cards handy of all the combat feats you might want to use, I guess?)
Plus this lets me obsessively reference those classic kung fu films where they showcase various interpretations of animal styles.
I forgot about that one! Yeah, I've been playing a brawler myself, and the thing is, for my particular build I have all the feats I really need, so I'd far rather have that particular archetype. It's on my list of archetypes I like.
...To be honest, I can only think of four or five archetypes in the book that I don't find interesting, mechanically. Some I don't like the style of, but that's a question of preferred themes.
I just built a sword and board skirmisher out to level 20 in Hero Lab. It's pretty sweet. Coupled with improved spring attack and greater spring attack, he would be a blast to play, running around the battlefield whacking everything. He's a little short on attack bonus since I built him with a high DEX due to light armor only (not dex-damage, however) ending up with a 54 AC.
Haha sadistic
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This book is full of really good archetypes (IMO), but one that stands out to me and has not been mentioned is for the Investigator: The Star Watcher, which trades rapier proficiency for Starknife and alters Alchemy from extracts to star charts--including being given the Scribe Scroll feat. Talents are included for choices that include applying your Studied Combat, etc. to the Starknife, even while thrown. Returning is even a choice! Really cool.
These are the following archetypes that stood out to me so far
Sharptooth(Barbarian) – trade fast movement for swim speed, scent and keen scent for uncanny dodge chain, increased breathing underwater for trap sense, and bleed damage in place of rage powers at level 6 & 12. Seems ideal for Azlant AP or underwater home game.
Thundercaller(Bard) – trade inspire competence, dirge of doom and frightening tune for the ability to drop lightning and cast the rage spell on allies. I don’t like playing Bards let alone ones that give up inspire courage for different abilities, this archetype keeps inspire courage! Inspiring courage and dropping lightning bolts at the same time sounds like fun to this guy
Living Avalanche(Brawler) – There’s a rule in a writers room that every stupid idea goes on the board no matter what and sometimes the stupidest idea becomes genius, this is that stupid idea. This class is the Kool-Aid man of the wild so as expected trade out stuff to improve overrun and bull rush maneuvers.
Viking(Fighter) – Not 100% familiar with the original Viking archetype, but I remember intimidation being a big part of it, which is still a part of this archetype. Nice flavor/versatility granting the ability to rage and select rage powers in place of fighter bonus feats. Highly implied you should board and sword with this archetype.
Forester(Hunter) – no animal companion instead takes the ability bonus and a Ranger’s favored terrain. Trade precise companion for bonus combat feats at level 2, 7, 13 & 19. Trade teamwork feat with animal companion instead with allies, improved empathic link & speak with the master for evasion and improved evasion, camouflage for bonus tricks, breath of life for raise animal companion and lastly hide in plain sight for greater empathic link. I have no interest in the Hunter class because it entails lugging around an animal companion and specializing in utilizing said animal companion, this archetype on the other hand does not. All of the trade-outs are a net positive in my opinion by getting rid of the animal companion mechanic and everything that comes with it you get bonus combat feats, improved evasion, teamwork feats with allies, breath of life and favored terrain with stealth bonus in said terrain. Top 3 archetype in the book IMO.
Water Dancer(Monk) – a lot of trade outs TLDR; no flurry, stunning fist, quivering palm, bonus feats, evasion, slow fall and abundant step. Add kinetic blast (water only), ki pool based off of charisma and bonus ac from charisma(dodge bonus) that stacks with the wisdom ac bonus, unarmed strike -4 levels, burn, utility wild talents -2 levels, ability to walk on liquid and eventually having a climb speed in liquid, metakinesis, and dimension door in water. This archetype is gushing with flavor and, rightfully so, a fan favorite amongst the paizo crowd. Only concern is if you’re going for power dps is nerfed by not having flurry for melee. Also with the kinetic blast you don’t get expanded element so you don’t have access to composite blasts nor do you have gather power so you’re always going to take nonlethal if you use any of your abilities that use burn. If I was in the Azlant AP I would totally dibs playing this class.
Forest Preserver(Paladin) – trade aura of courage for favored terrain, divine health for woodland stride,
Positive energy for some druid spells, aura of resolve for fireproof aura, aura of justice for sacred grove, and aura of faith for aura of preservation. I don’t like normal paladins I think they’re too op and being forced to play lg is not my style. This archetype still has the alignment restrictions, but the trade-outs for the most part are general nerfs in place of niche abilities and flavor. I’d consider playing this class for a woods based adventure as opposed to my usual preference to not play a paladin at all.
Tidal Hunter(Ranger) – trade out wild empathy/6th level combat feat to breathe underwater, track /camouflage for keen scent, favored terrain gets consolidated and stacked into water only, woodland stride for swim speed, improved evasion for tidal surge 1/day. If you’re playing an underwater adventure this is the superior option to take if you want to play a ranger.
Sylvan Trickster(Rogue) – trade trapfinding for wild empathy, uncanny dodge for resist nature’s lore, improved uncanny dodge for DR cold iron, and lastly can select a witch hex in place of a rogue talent. You lose the ability to disarm magical traps, but in return you gain all the witch hexes including major and grand.
Elementalist(Shifter) – haven’t really looked into the shifter, but turning into an elemental seems cooler than growing claws.
Rageshaper(Shifter) – This archetype is the Incredible Hulk (nuff said), only drawback is when the additional resources are released for this book this archetype will be banned from pfs play due it’s susceptibility to pvp damage.
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Thundercaller(Bard) – trade inspire competence, dirge of doom and frightening tune for the ability to drop lightning and cast the rage spell on allies. I don’t like playing Bards let alone ones that give up inspire courage for different abilities, this archetype keeps inspire courage! Inspiring courage and dropping lightning bolts at the same time sounds like fun to this guy
So the issue is that you for sure aren't doing both till lv7 since doing a thundercall would end your inspire courage being a new performance you're doing. And at lv7+ you can run into variation of if you can activate two performances in a round, but if you can you're still needing to spend a full round to do your thundercall and then start your inspire for a few levels.
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Rageshaper(Shifter) – This archetype is the Incredible Hulk (nuff said), only drawback is when the additional resources are released for this book this archetype will be banned from pfs play due it’s susceptibility to pvp damage.
The drawback is it takes a full round and provokes to start, you only have level of rounds per day of it, and you can't voluntarily end it. So you rage for a fight get a round or two off and then burn any remaining rounds you have and you're done for the day.
great for a 1 off boss fight.
Pretty unusable for a PC.
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This book is full of really good archetypes (IMO), but one that stands out to me and has not been mentioned is for the Investigator: The Star Watcher, which trades rapier proficiency for Starknife and alters Alchemy from extracts to star charts--including being given the Scribe Scroll feat. Talents are included for choices that include applying your Studied Combat, etc. to the Starknife, even while thrown. Returning is even a choice! Really cool.
I’m not a huge fan of that one. You essentially get infusion for free, but having to pick the targets for your extracts at the start of the day ( and requiring your target to be present) is pretty killer, then you have to burn a talent just to make the archetype’s new weapon work anyways. Being able to craft scrolls like an alchemist can brew potions is pretty sweet in the right campaign, but that’s another talent too. You also lose out on some cool talents too.
The idea behind the archetype is neat, but reading it I kept expecting some big payoff for all the penalties and losses in the archetype that ended up never manifesting itself.
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Rageshaper(Shifter) – This archetype is the Incredible Hulk (nuff said), only drawback is when the additional resources are released for this book this archetype will be banned from pfs play due it’s susceptibility to pvp damage.The drawback is it takes a full round and provokes to start, you only have level of rounds per day of it, and you can't voluntarily end it. So you rage for a fight get a round or two off and then burn any remaining rounds you have and you're done for the day.
It is an easy Will save to end. You may end up using a round or two more than you want, but you don't necessarily burn all your rounds.
Thundercaller(Bard) – trade inspire competence, dirge of doom and frightening tune for the ability to drop lightning and cast the rage spell on allies. I don’t like playing Bards let alone ones that give up inspire courage for different abilities, this archetype keeps inspire courage! Inspiring courage and dropping lightning bolts at the same time sounds like fun to this guySo the issue is that you for sure aren't doing both till lv7 since doing a thundercall would end your inspire courage being a new performance you're doing. And at lv7+ you can run into variation of if you can activate two performances in a round, but if you can you're still needing to spend a full round to do your thundercall and then start your inspire for a few levels.
The idea would be to take the lingering performance feat so first rd inspire, 2nd rd drop lightning while the other lingers. If I'm misinterpreting how to use lingering performance then yeah it negates the idea.
The idea would be to take the lingering performance feat so first rd inspire, 2nd rd drop lightning while the other lingers. If I'm misinterpreting how to use lingering performance then yeah it negates the idea.Thundercaller(Bard) – trade inspire competence, dirge of doom and frightening tune for the ability to drop lightning and cast the rage spell on allies. I don’t like playing Bards let alone ones that give up inspire courage for different abilities, this archetype keeps inspire courage! Inspiring courage and dropping lightning bolts at the same time sounds like fun to this guySo the issue is that you for sure aren't doing both till lv7 since doing a thundercall would end your inspire courage being a new performance you're doing. And at lv7+ you can run into variation of if you can activate two performances in a round, but if you can you're still needing to spend a full round to do your thundercall and then start your inspire for a few levels.
You're forgetting a line in Lingering Performance.
Benefit: The bonuses and penalties from your bardic performance continue for 2 rounds after you cease performing. Any other requirement, such as range or specific conditions, must still be met for the effect to continue. If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease.
I don't know why people like Green Knight. You lose most of your active features for some passive tankyness increases.