So...Folca


Paizo General Discussion

301 to 319 of 319 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Grand Lodge

3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'll admit that I always pictured Folca as being far closer to Pennywise from It than the child abuser prior to this thread. Reading through here has definitely shifted my stance a bit, but as I continue thinking about it I'm not quite sure that child abuse was originally the intended idea but perhaps something that got added in by a freelancer who misunderstood it and didn't get caught in the development cycle.

Folca would pretty much perfectly fit Pennywise if not for Unnatural Lust. I genuinely think it would've been fine if not for this one spell.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Reading here has shifted my stance some too. In that before this thread, the description of Folca in Book of the Damned would have been beyond anything I could have envisioned putting in a game I was running, on general principles of not including things that could potentially be uncomfortable to players, whereas after seeing multiple posts from abuse survivors talking to finding that content a positive thing to have in the game, as well as the many who do not, I can now see where I might want to include it as part of tailoring a game to a specific player group's expressed preferences. And given the horrible and depressing frequency of abuse in the real world, I really do not want to prejudge how likely I am to encounter such players for whom it would be positive any more than how likely I am to meet players for whom it would be strongly negative.

I can entirely understand the reasoning behind removing it, but I do regret that there will be no official support for this content should I find myself in a situation where it might help. It is kind of uncomfortable to feel people might be thinking the only reason one might wish to have such content in one's game is desire to be edgy.


Bard of Ages wrote:

I have been watching this thread closely and thought I ought to share my story.

For those calling to have Folca removed: It's going to happen. Unsure of when, but Paizo employees have spoken in an official manner and it's Paizo's IP to do with what they want. I also agree that Folca is kind of horrible from a potentially harmful standpoint.

Ehhhh.... I'd like to believe them but Paizo doesn't have a stellar reputation when it comes to not editing old content despite by their own admission being unwelcoming and horrific.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Bard of Ages wrote:

I have been watching this thread closely and thought I ought to share my story.

For those calling to have Folca removed: It's going to happen. Unsure of when, but Paizo employees have spoken in an official manner and it's Paizo's IP to do with what they want. I also agree that Folca is kind of horrible from a potentially harmful standpoint.

Ehhhh.... I'd like to believe them but Paizo doesn't have a stellar reputation when it comes to not editing old content despite by their own admission being unwelcoming and horrific.

Wait...when has Paizo ever said they were gonna get rid of something and then not done so?


Deadmanwalking wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Bard of Ages wrote:

I have been watching this thread closely and thought I ought to share my story.

For those calling to have Folca removed: It's going to happen. Unsure of when, but Paizo employees have spoken in an official manner and it's Paizo's IP to do with what they want. I also agree that Folca is kind of horrible from a potentially harmful standpoint.

Ehhhh.... I'd like to believe them but Paizo doesn't have a stellar reputation when it comes to not editing old content despite by their own admission being unwelcoming and horrific.
Wait...when has Paizo ever said they were gonna get rid of something and then not done so?

Ironically the last time they got criticized for including rape in the game which then progressed to transphobia in the game which was mentioned by Wes. Only reason why I remembered it was because the element turns up in the Adventures Guide l.


Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I'll admit that I always pictured Folca as being far closer to Pennywise from It than the child abuser prior to this thread. Reading through here has definitely shifted my stance a bit, but as I continue thinking about it I'm not quite sure that child abuse was originally the intended idea but perhaps something that got added in by a freelancer who misunderstood it and didn't get caught in the development cycle.

Folca would pretty much perfectly fit Pennywise if not for Unnatural Lust. I genuinely think it would've been fine if not for this one spell.

yeah, I wonder if it wouldn't have been easier and just as good to change the text on some of the boons and spells?

Go back to pure Boogeyman and avoid anything hinting at pedophilia.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Yup.

Swap Unnatural Lust for Beguiling Gift. Swap Modify Memory for Anonymous Interaction.

Liberty's Edge

3 people marked this as a favorite.
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Ironically the last time they got criticized for including rape in the game which then progressed to transphobia in the game which was mentioned by Wes. Only reason why I remembered it was because the element turns up in the Adventures Guide l.

When was this? Can you cite them saying they'd remove something and then not doing so?

I simply have no idea what exactly you're referring to. I must've missed this particular controversy.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
MadScientistWorking wrote:
Ironically the last time they got criticized for including rape in the game which then progressed to transphobia in the game which was mentioned by Wes. Only reason why I remembered it was because the element turns up in the Adventures Guide l.

When was this? Can you cite them saying they'd remove something and then not doing so?

I simply have no idea what exactly you're referring to. I must've missed this particular controversy.

Weirdly enough you didn't because I found you floating around in a thread the more I read about. The girdle of genderchange was originally mentioned by Wes as needing to be fixed in some capacity. The framing of that item has just lead to some awkward conversations with people in real like other elements Paizo has produced.

And I will say this I like the NPC. She's great. I'm happy that she exists. You are one of my favorite writers in Pathfinder.

Liberty's Edge

Oh, are we just talking the WotR thing and the first in-print reference to an elixir of sex change? I certainly remember that.

At no point during it did Paizo, the company, make any statements regarding changing anything in their books. If I recall, the Girdle was mentioned as maybe being in need of a re-write or removal, but it was never a definite thing, and definitely not said by the company itself in any official capacity.

So...really not an equivalent situation.

If you mean some other incident...I really am completely lost as to which one. Maybe throw up a link so we can all take a look at what you're talking about?


Which is the book that has this? I recall someone saying Book of the Damned 3, but that one can't be, he was just mentioned in the cover.

Which is this book that is bringing so much discussion?

(my opinion: I think it's all the same, there are evils that I particularly think are much, much worse and monstrous in the pathfinder books then mere child rape)


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The recently released hardcover compilation of the Book Of The Damned.


Caleb Garofalo wrote:

Would if have been okay if it called for killing children instead? I'm hearing people say that all the killing that Pathfinder incentivizes is an okay evil, but incentivizing Child abuse is too far.

Genuine question.

What I found just skimming the book for a few minutes.

Zelishkar: Burning a living creature of at least the size of a cat or infant atop a pyre. Gain a +4 ...

Stygidvod: Smear yourself in and drink the blood of a much younger victim.

Entry right before Folca is Ealdeez: Meticulously plot the brutal murder of an enemy.
I can think of numerous times in real history in which child prince/princess murdered in a meticulous plot so someone else could seize the throne.

While they do not specifically say "child," the way written would clearly allows it to gain the bonus. Even if it did say only adults, this would rise the question of when does one transitions from a child to an adult. 12? 16? 18? 21?

I am seriously wondering why everyone is focusing on Folca when other entries appear so much worse. It's also why I against editing Folca out, because it bring to much focus to this character.

Those who are saying "child abuse is the line" have to admit that if we wanted to reprint a book without any child abuse, we would have to specifically say what that age is and that the reprint Book of the Damned would be filled with a lot of blank pages, more than just Folca.


captain yesterday wrote:
The recently released hardcover compilation of the Book Of The Damned.

Is there a link to it?

Converse02 wrote:
Caleb Garofalo wrote:

Would if have been okay if it called for killing children instead? I'm hearing people say that all the killing that Pathfinder incentivizes is an okay evil, but incentivizing Child abuse is too far.

Genuine question.

What I found just skimming the book for a few minutes.

Zelishkar: Burning a living creature of at least the size of a cat or infant atop a pyre. Gain a +4 ...

Stygidvod: Smear yourself in and drink the blood of a much younger victim.

Entry right before Folca is Ealdeez: Meticulously plot the brutal murder of an enemy.
I can think of numerous times in real history in which child prince/princess murdered in a meticulous plot so someone else could seize the throne.

While they do not specifically say "child," the way written would clearly allows it to gain the bonus. Even if it did say only adults, this would rise the question of when does one transitions from a child to an adult. 12? 16? 18? 21?

I am seriously wondering why everyone is focusing on Folca when other entries appear so much worse. It's also why I against editing Folca out, because it bring to much focus to this character.

Those who are saying "child abuse is the line" have to admit that if we wanted to reprint a book without any child abuse, we would have to specifically say what that age is and that the reprint Book of the Damned would be filled with a lot of blank pages, more than just Folca.

I completely agree with that. It was what I was saying last post.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Converse02 wrote:
Those who are saying "child abuse is the line" have to admit that if we wanted to reprint a book without any child abuse, we would have to specifically say what that age is and that the reprint Book of the Damned would be filled with a lot of blank pages, more than just Folca.

Well, as Vic Wertz quoted a little while ago, what Eric actually said was the line was "child sexual abuse", which is in fact restricted to Folca, and makes sense inasmuch as people in real life have been molested, but very few people in real life have been sacrificed on a pyre, or had their children so sacrificed, so references to that are likely a bit less traumatic to readers.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Converse02 wrote:
Those who are saying "child abuse is the line" have to admit that if we wanted to reprint a book without any child abuse, we would have to specifically say what that age is and that the reprint Book of the Damned would be filled with a lot of blank pages, more than just Folca.
Well, as Vic Wertz quoted a little while ago, what Eric actually said was the line was "child sexual abuse", which is in fact restricted to Folca, and makes sense inasmuch as people in real life have been molested, but very few people in real life have been sacrificed on a pyre, or had their children so sacrificed, so references to that are likely a bit less traumatic to readers.

True, but would you say that Serial Killers is a traumatic spot? I'd guess it's hella traumatic for many families, specially in the U.S.

Well, look the description of a Unique Babau from Demons Revisited:

__________

"In that life, Mangvhune was a highly-respected scholar of Kintargo’s illustrious Alabaster Academy, an erudite surgeon and accomplished scholar of humanoid physiology. He was as close as you could get among the Academy’s professors to a celebrity.

His lectures on anatomy in particular were always standing-room only events that drew far beyond the walls of the Academy itself for audience members. Charming, handsome, and as the Kintargo gossips were so fond of pointing out, quite available, Mangvhune maintained the public facade of the perfect gentleman scholar. In fact, this facade was nothing more than a construct, for the real Mangvhune was a remorseless and productive murderer. When Mangvhune was revealed to be the notorious Temple Hill Slasher, a brutal serial killer who tormented his victims for days before leaving their mutilated bodies in the vicinity of Temple Hill, the city was stunned. Despite a swift trial and even swifter execution by headsman’s axe, the Alabaster Academy’s reputation never fully recovered from the scandalous revelation. Mangvhune’s murderous soul went swiftly to the Abyss after his death, where he transformed into a babau demon, mind and personality intact. Since then, Mangvhune’s notoriety has only grown, and rumors that the Temple Hill Slasher now stalks the streets of dozens of cities throughout the Inner Sea region..."

______

The point is, how torturing people for days before killing them is less traumatic and less tabboo or "permited" than a cultist that - only - stalk and (possibly) rape children? If the first thing is considered "ok" and the second "omg-thats-most-evil-act-ever", then something is very wrong with us. Not even considering that the 1st one DOES apply to children as well - I don't imagine a babau having any qualms about torturing a child for days. And yes, in that "torture" time rape is included in almost every case known to man...

If it's about Folca being "more explicit", then remember this: Folca doesn't even say rape at all, only that you should stalk a child and show something horrible to him/her. That CAN be interpreted as rape or that can be interpreted simply as showing a child how you strangle a puppy to death. Plus, it's just a minor daemon, you don't even get much benefit out of it.

If any PC or NPC was going to play a rapist, they should choose Socothbenoth for sure, since he's the Demon Lord related to Tabboo and sexual perversity. That does include pedophily, as I'm sure you are aware. Plus he lets you change your body parts or members to tentacles or huge sexual organs, or even to a mix of horses and man (if you're into that). All sort of hentai fantasies and fetiches can be done with the abilites HE allows.

But we're not talking about Socothbenoth, but rather a forgotten daemon whose abilities kinda sucks for the difficulty of the Obedience. Funny thing.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

All I'll say here is that there's a reason why open world crime video games like GTA and Saint's Row seem to be set in a world in which children do not exist. And why open world RPGs like the new Fallouts and Skyrim games make children pretty much immune to being hurt.

Out society has decided that violence and abuse against children is abhorrent to the point of revulsion. That makes it incredibly tricky to use in media and requires a significant amount of sensitivity and thought to even consider using as a subject matter.

Folca is a throwaway demon among dozens. He doesn't qualify.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Manager

8 people marked this as a favorite.

Thank you all for your opinions and feelings on this matter. At this time I am going to close the thread. For reference, here is Erik's post on this issue: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uq7d&page=4?SoFolca#182. I do not believe the community is being positively served by keeping this discussion going on our forums.

301 to 319 of 319 << first < prev | 1 | 2 | 3 | 4 | 5 | 6 | 7 | next > last >>
Community / Forums / Paizo / General Discussion / So...Folca All Messageboards
Recent threads in General Discussion