Do you require Handle Animal checks to move your mount?


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I was checking the mounted combat, ride and handle animal rules again, and I found no clear answer to this. Apparently, you cannot move your mount unless you spend a move action (free for whoever it is free) telling your mount to move wherever you want them to move.

However, there are no tricks that say "move into that direction" or "move towards that rock". We have the attack ("go to that guy and attack him"), come ("come to me, its safe") and heel ("follow me closely, its safe").

The seek trick is the closest, which tells the animal to move into an area and look for "anything that is obviously alive or animate.". But this doesn't sound right. An "area" is something different from a "direction".

The riding general purpose only teaches come, heel and stay:

Quote:
Riding (DC 15) An animal trained to bear a rider knows the tricks come, heel, and stay. Training an animal for riding takes three weeks.

And the combat general purpose simply adds attack options.

But how would you tell your animal (companion or not) to go to a specific place you are pointing them to? How would you tell your mount that they have to move, what direction to move, and how far they should move? Sounds like you would have to push your animal (DC 25) with a full-round action (move for those who make it a move), which doesn't sound right.

Going into the Ride skill, the only option we have is to guide with knees, so you can have your hands free. Or spur the creature, but that simply increases their speed.

You also have the option to make your mount "attack" if they are combat trained, but this is overlapping the attack trick from the handle animal skill. But unlike handle animal, using ride to make your mount attack is always a free action.

If I want to make my mount move into a target so I can attack him, I also have to tell my mount to "attack" using the trick with the same name, which could be impossible for my mount if the target is more than one move action away from her. Otherwise, both will attack, which isn't what we normally see on mounted combat on any media (of course, its a game, but still). I simply want for my mount to take me to my target.

How do you move your mount to the direction you want?

The mounted combat rules or the FAQ clarifying it also did not help much in my quest for knowledge.

Quote:


Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

Cool, but how do I tell the mount to move and the direction and distance I want them to go? How do I make them stop before my target so I can attack him instead of tramping over him or avoiding him instinctively to avoid collision? Or even prevent a sudden stop that could throw the rider into the ground by accident.

Quote:
Combat while Mounted: With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.

Well, I do not want to guide with my knees, I want to guide with one of my hands, so I can attack with the other. Also, does this "guiding" works as a handle animal check to make the mount move? Does it make the mount spend a move action so they can move?

Quote:
If your mount charges (...)

This is even cooler. But I don't want my mount to charge, I want for my mount to move, not attack someone. Afaik, you cannot charge and forfeit your attack, and I am unsure how I would tell my mount (tricks) to do that anyway if it was possible.

Quote:
Likewise, you can take move actions normally.

This not really helpful if I am making handle animal checks every round. Sometimes possibly even more than one check.


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You do not use Handle Animal just to ride. Use Ride for that.

Ride wrote:
Check: Typical riding actions don't require checks. You can saddle, mount, ride, and dismount from a mount without a problem. The following tasks do require checks.

You do need to make the Handle Animal check if you want to get your mount to attack an undead or something, but that's separate business from riding.


That does not answer what kind of action is required:

Quote:


Action: Varies. Mounting or dismounting normally is a move action. Other checks are a move action, a free action, or no action at all, as noted above.

("ride" is not noted above)

Or what riding specifically means, I mean, do I have to look up a dictionary and can do whatever the rules do not specifically mention? Because if that's the case, all I can do is remain idle while the animal moves around (be carried on their back)


I don't have any rules quotes, but the way everyone plays it is that if you're not doing anything fancy, directing your horse is a free action.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
I don't have any rules quotes, but the way everyone plays it is that if you're not doing anything fancy, directing your horse is a free action.

Really? The way I've always seen it played is that directing your horse and moving your horse counts as using your move action, and then you can only make a standard action attack at the end or the beginning of that move (barring the use of any special feats).

The only specifically noted exception (AFAIK) is that you are allowed to make a full attack action with ranged weapons. Nowhere do I find this sort of caveat for melee attacks.

But it's certainly true that the rules for mounted combat and movement are vague and fragmentary, as if they were tacked on to the DD3.x/PF system as an afterthought. Aerial combat and movement are even worse.


OK, I stand corrected. Not everyone does that (or anything else).

Relevant rule is:

Quote:
If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack.

Note that it doesn't say "You must take a move action to move your mount more than 5 feet," which would be a lot more elegant if that's what they meant.

As I see it, that means you can use your move action to do something else while you're waiting for your horse to move.


Yeah, a mounted PC can still use their move action to do something like drink a potion (in hand) retrieve a potion while on the way to their enemy and then attack as a standard action.


...as long as they have the Accelerated Drinker combat trait from "Pathfinder Companion: Cheliax, Empire of Devils" or similar.


Crap. Yep, I misremembered the action type to drink a potion (I don't use them much in combat, like ever).


On top of the still unanswered questions, the FAQ also breaks mounted combat for characters who lack "may use handle animal as free action" (druids, rangers, cavaliers, etc).

How Fritz, the Fighter, would make a mounted charge with a lance? What actions he would use? What skills?

Sczarni

You're confusing a lot of rules together. Let's parse them apart:

Telling an unmounted Animal Companion to move to a particular square isn't covered in any sourcebook that I'm aware of. Some GMs will allow you to do so if your Animal Companion can either understand your language or has the Seek trick. But not all GMs will. It's an issue of table variation.

The rest of your questions are not so vaguely answered.

Getting your Mount to attack requires a Handle Animal check. You are correct that this can be problematic for characters who don't have an actual Companion, and it's a balancing cost in exchange for getting extra attacks. Best to leave attack animals to classes that can Handle as a free action.

Simply riding your Mount does not require a Ride check, and as quoted above, it doesn't take up your action; it takes up your Mount's action. Furthermore, the FAQ on charging together wouldn't be possible if you had to make a separate Move action check, since charging requires a full round action.

Sczarni

shadowkras wrote:
How Fritz, the Fighter, would make a mounted charge with a lance? What actions he would use? What skills?

Assuming Fritz the Fighter was using his free hand to steer his mount, he requires no Ride check to charge an opponent with his Lance. Charging is a full round action, however, so he doesn't have an action left to command his Mount to attack, since it requires a Handle Animal check as a move action (and a typical Mount probably wouldn't have enough reach to attack anyways).


@Nefreet I am not confusing, I came to the same conclusion as you just posted. It's because they don't make sense that I am asking those questions.

Fritz, the Fighter, cannot charge with his horse because he picked the wrong class. He will never gain the benefits of a lance or spirited charge.
You cannot point your mount or pet to move closer to a tree or rock because those are objects/locations and not creatures.

Both of those rulings are very problematic and unrealistic.

How do you charge together with your mount if you are not a pet-class?
How do you make an animal move to a specific location away from you?

Sczarni

I answered both of your bolded questions.

The Exchange

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shadowkras wrote:
How do you charge together with your mount if you are not a pet-class?

You quoted the answer above. You can either guide with your knees (DC 5 ride check) or use one hand for the full round. Either usage is not an action.

If you want to use your mount in combat your have two choices. If it is "combat-trained" (knows the attack, come, defend, down, guard, and heel tricks as detailed in the Handle Animal skill) then a DC 10 Ride check (free action) means it will act as you want it to, including its movement and attacks. Failure means you cannot take actions and spend your round controlling it instead (though it still moves and attacks as you command).

If the mount is NOT combat trained, you need to make a DC 20 Ride check as a move action. Failure means you spend the whole round controlling it and can't take a standard or swift action of your own. (As failure with a combat-trained mount)

Quote:
How do you make an animal move to a specific location away from you?

If you're mounted on it, see above.

If you are not mounted, you go to the Handle Animal skill. There's some variation here but worst case a DC 25 check to "push" the animal will work. (Move action if it is your pet, full-round if not.)

rules text from the Ride skill wrote:

Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Control Mount in Battle: As a move action, you can attempt to control a light horse, pony, heavy horse, or other mount not trained for combat riding while in battle.

I agree that "control" is not clearly defined for a non-combat-trained animal. But the rules for a combat-trained animal are explicit. It's a ride check to move and attack. By extension, so is a non-combat-trained animal.

Sczarni

The attack command still requires Handle Animal ("If you direct your war-trained mount to attack"), but to make your own attacks in addition to the Mount's requires only a free action Ride check ("This usage is a free action".

But since Fritz the Fighter is only concerned with delivering his Lance attack, that section isn't relevant to the discussion anyways.


A mount can be commanded to attack by their rider as a free action. This is an additional option the rider has as opposed to using handle animal. Otherwise knights can't get their horses to attack and still attack.

DC 10 Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

A druid or cavalier may want to use the free action handle animal, everyone else will want a +9 ride skill ASAP.

Sczarni

No.

As I explained just ahead of you, the DC 10 "Fight *with* a Combat-Trained Mount" allows *you* to fight *with* your mount.

It's not for commanding your mount to attack. That's what Handle Animal is for.

And it indeed does mean that Fritz the Fighter's mount cannot be commanded to attack if Fritz is doing another full-round action.


According to the FAQ linked earlier, if you cannot command your mount to attack, and your mount cannot charge, Fritz the Fighter cannot make a mounted charge.

@Nefreet
Sorry if I disregarded your answer, but "table variation" is used when rules are unclear and can be interpreted in more than one way, not when house-ruling is required for a written rule to actually work. For both charging with a mount, and using the seek trick for something it doesnt actually do.

Fritz can only use Ride to move his mount, which is not a charge, and means that he will not gain any benefit from charging with a lance or from spirited charge.

Not only that, but Ride only covers guiding your mount, you still require to actually order your mount to move to the designated location. Guiding with your knees is simply freeing your hands to be used in combat, not actually saying it allows you to move your mount where you want to go.

The Exchange

shadowkras wrote:
Not only that, but Ride only covers guiding your mount, you still require to actually order your mount to move to the designated location.

I'm sorry, but what is "guiding" if not "telling where to go?"

Quote:
Guiding with your knees is simply freeing your hands to be used in combat

Yes. And if you fail the check you have to use a hand to guide instead of having both free. You still guide, you just have to use a hand.

In combat you need to use two parts of the ride skill:
1) Fight with/control a mount in battle. DC 10 or DC 20 depending on whether or not it is trained for combat. Success or failure determines how many of your own actions you need to use.
2) Guide with knees. DC 5 to have both hands free. Failure means you need to use one hand to guide. You can voluntarily choose to use a hand to guide even if you don't have to.

If you are going to insist that "guiding" and "controlling" don't tell the mount where to go then the only answer acceptable to you based on your interpretations is: mounted rules are hopelessly broken. Play a wizard.


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Nefreet wrote:
No.

Yes.

Quote:
As I explained just ahead of you, the DC 10 "Fight *with* a Combat-Trained Mount" allows *you* to fight *with* your mount.

What would stop you otherwise?

Quote:
It's not for commanding your mount to attack. That's what Handle Animal is for.

Its not mutually exclusive. there can be two ways to do the same thing.

Quote:


And it indeed does mean that Fritz the Fighter's mount cannot be commanded to attack if Fritz is doing another full-round action.

Under that interpretation, for the last 20 ish years a knight on a horse hasn't been able to use his horse to attack until the cavalier came along. That seems... worse than odd.

Sczarni

You cannot use Ride to command a creature to attack. That is indeed exclusive to Handle Animal.

The section we're discussing quite clearly allows *you* to attack.

Sczarni

shadowkras wrote:

@Nefreet

Sorry if I disregarded your answer

Judging by your response I don't feel as though you read my post.

Fritz the Fighter charging on horseback isn't subject to table variation. You can quite clearly do that (even if you happen to disagree).

But regarding the Seek trick and/or commanding an unmounted creature to move to a square you designate, your options are either 1) "no", or 2) table variation. There is not currently a third option.
You call that "unrealistic", but it's incredibly difficult in the real world. It's not unrealistic to believe it would be equally difficult in Pathfinder.


shadowkras wrote:
According to the FAQ linked earlier, if you cannot command your mount to attack, and your mount cannot charge, Fritz the Fighter cannot make a mounted charge.

All I see is "A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount."

Essentially, the two of you act as a composite entity. In a standard lance-charge, the mount does the movement part of the charge, and the rider does the 'attack' part.

To do this with a combat-trained mount, all you have to do is guide it with your knees - a DC 5 Ride check - or with a free hand, which requires no skill check. This is enough to direct your horse where you want it to go. No Handle Animal required.

It gets more complicated if you want your mount to attack too, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.


Nefreet wrote:

You cannot use Ride to command a creature to attack. That is indeed exclusive to Handle Animal.

The section we're discussing quite clearly allows *you* to attack.

It clearly also allows the mount to attack. What would this option do that guide with knees doesn't otherwise?

Remember what you said about interpretations that don't let a knight on a horse charge? The knight can't charge if the horse doesn't. How's he supposed to tell the horse to charge if he needs a move action to tell it to attack?


Matthew Downie wrote:
shadowkras wrote:
According to the FAQ linked earlier, if you cannot command your mount to attack, and your mount cannot charge, Fritz the Fighter cannot make a mounted charge.

All I see is "A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount."

Essentially, the two of you act as a composite entity. In a standard lance-charge, the mount does the movement part of the charge, and the rider does the 'attack' part.

To do this with a combat-trained mount, all you have to do is guide it with your knees - a DC 5 Ride check - or with a free hand, which requires no skill check. This is enough to direct your horse where you want it to go. No Handle Animal required.

It gets more complicated if you want your mount to attack too, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here.

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge.

This means that to charge you and your mount need to charge at the same time.

Sczarni

BigNorseWolf wrote:
How's he supposed to tell the horse to charge if he needs a move action to tell it to attack?

I am not taking side of the original poster in any way shape or form. That's their stance, that it takes an action to make a Ride check.

A Fighter (or any non-pet Class) does indeed require a move action to command their mount to attack. There is no way around that.

Ergo, if Fritz uses his full-round action to charge, he does not have the requisite move action to command his mount to attack.

Fritz gets to charge and attack. His mount just gets a charge.

Furthermore, Guide with knees and Fight with combat trained mount do entirely different things. One allows you yhave your hands free. The other allows you to attack. You need to succeed at both checks if you want to do both of those things.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:

You cannot use Ride to command a creature to attack. That is indeed exclusive to Handle Animal.

The section we're discussing quite clearly allows *you* to attack.

It clearly also allows the mount to attack. What would this option do that guide with knees doesn't otherwise?

Remember what you said about interpretations that don't let a knight on a horse charge? The knight can't charge if the horse doesn't. How's he supposed to tell the horse to charge if he needs a move action to tell it to attack?

what attack when your mount attacks means if you guide it and have it attack using handle animal you can't make any attacks. This ride skill use lets you attack if you've use handle animal to have your mount also attack.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

In fact, most of the mounted combat rules read as if the rider and mount were a single entity, with a single set of actions, not two creatures with their own actions and initiative ranks. If you operate from this assumption, then mounted combat is a lot simpler to suss out.

However, that doesn't change the fact that the mounted combat rules in PF are incomplete, poorly defined and not self-consistent. Aerial combat rules are even worse.


Nefreet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
How's he supposed to tell the horse to charge if he needs a move action to tell it to attack?

I am not taking side of the original poster in any way shape or form. That's their stance, that it takes an action to make a Ride check.

A Fighter (or any non-pet Class) does indeed require a move action to command their mount to attack. There is no way around that.

Ergo, if Fritz uses his full-round action to charge, he does not have the requisite move action to command his mount to attack.

Fritz gets to charge and attack. His mount just gets a charge.

I don't think this is right per the FAQ.

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge.

This means that to charge you and your mount need to charge at the same time, not that the rider can charge and the mount just moves for the rider's charge, it needs to be charging as well.


Nefreet wrote:
A Fighter (or any non-pet Class) does indeed require a move action to command their mount to attack. There is no way around that.

There is a way around that. Commanding the mount to fight includes the attack. Otherwise, show me how a knight can charge with a lance.

What does attack with mount do that guiding with knees doesnt?


I feel like some people are using the word 'attack' in an ambiguous manner. Is a horse 'attacking' during a joust?

Also: Does any rule say mounts only attack when commanded to do so? If I'm riding a big combat-trained wolf (not sure why that popped into my head) and we're fighting an ogre, I'm pretty sure my wolf would bite the ogre irrespective of what I want.


Matthew Downie wrote:

I feel like some people are using the word 'attack' in an ambiguous manner. Is a horse 'attacking' during a joust?

Also: Does any rule say mounts only attack when commanded to do so? If I'm riding a big combat-trained wolf (not sure why that popped into my head) and we're fighting an ogre, I'm pretty sure my wolf would bite the ogre irrespective of what I want.

Defend would let the wolf work like that.

But how do you get the wolf to charge if you're not a member of the pet class?


I think there is some confusion.

Getting the horse to move toward someone so you can impale it with your lance, but the horse is not making any attacks, only requires the ride skill. As an example charge(rider only attacks) and use ride by attack to keep moving.

Getting the horse to charge so both you can attack requires handle animal because you cant make the horse attack(as in make an attack roll) with only the ride check.


wraithstrike wrote:

I think there is some confusion.

Getting the horse to move toward someone so you can impale it with your lance, but the horse is not making any attacks, only requires the ride skill. As an example charge(rider only attacks) and use ride by attack to keep moving.

Getting the horse to charge so both you can attack requires handle animal because you cant make the horse attack(as in make an attack roll) with only the ride check.

Charge requires the horse and the rider to attack (or at least to start one up)


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Charge requires the horse and the rider to attack (or at least to start one up)

See, you're just parsing that wrong. It should be:

"Charge requires (the horse and the rider) to attack"

They are treated by PF rules as one and the same creature for most purposes.


Wheldrake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Charge requires the horse and the rider to attack (or at least to start one up)

See, you're just parsing that wrong. It should be:

"Charge requires (the horse and the rider) to attack"

They are treated by PF rules as one and the same creature for most purposes.

Not parsing it wrong at all. If the rider swings a sword does the horse start swinging their hooves? No.

A knight with a lance and a horse CAN"T attack in tandem before ride by attack.


It seems like you're arguing over rules that aren't written down because they're too obvious to be worth writing down. We know what happens when a mounted knight charges. The knight does not have to run towards the target using his own move speed, and the horse does not have to roll to hit.

Sczarni

Chess Pwn wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
How's he supposed to tell the horse to charge if he needs a move action to tell it to attack?

I am not taking side of the original poster in any way shape or form. That's their stance, that it takes an action to make a Ride check.

A Fighter (or any non-pet Class) does indeed require a move action to command their mount to attack. There is no way around that.

Ergo, if Fritz uses his full-round action to charge, he does not have the requisite move action to command his mount to attack.

Fritz gets to charge and attack. His mount just gets a charge.

I don't think this is right per the FAQ.

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge.

This means that to charge you and your mount need to charge at the same time, not that the rider can charge and the mount just moves for the rider's charge, it needs to be charging as well.

A charge does NOT include an attack.

You MAY attack.

A rider and mount do indeed charge together. That is explicit from the FAQ.

That does not mean both attack at the end of a charge.

In fact, the mount that Fritz the Fighter is riding *can't*.

All it can do is charge, since it was never commanded to attack.


Nefreet wrote:
In fact, the mount that Fritz the Fighter is riding *can't*.

you're not giving me any reason to think he can't, and you're not engaging or answering the points.

What does Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount do that guide with knees does not? Sure, "use both hands in combat" might mean two fisting potions, but sans rules lawerying it means hitting things.

A knight hasn't been able to fight in tandem with his horse until the cavalier became a thing?

DC is the same as ordering an attack

Sczarni

I already explained the difference between Fight with Combat Trained Mount and Guide With Knees, so I am indeed "engaging or answering the points". But this thread is now discussing six different tangents, and I'm trying to focus on a few.

BigNorseWolf wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
In fact, the mount that Fritz the Fighter is riding *can't*.

you're not giving me any reason to think he can't

This is basic elementary Pathfinder action economy.

You cannot perform a Move Action and a Full Round Action.


BigNorseWolf wrote:
Wheldrake wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Charge requires the horse and the rider to attack (or at least to start one up)

See, you're just parsing that wrong. It should be:

"Charge requires (the horse and the rider) to attack"

They are treated by PF rules as one and the same creature for most purposes.

Not parsing it wrong at all. If the rider swings a sword does the horse start swinging their hooves? No.

A knight with a lance and a horse CAN"T attack in tandem before ride by attack.

That FAQ was not intended to make the horse attack with a ride check.

I'll just FAQ it when I get home so the FAQ can get fixed.


Its not the faq.

From the old 3.5 archives

Fight Along with Your Mount: Make a DC 10 Ride check as a free action. If you succeed, you can direct your mount to attack a foe and you also can attack as well. See the section on attacking while mounted for details. If you fail this check, or don't bother to make it, either you or your mount can attack this turn, but not both of you.

You can try to argue that that clarification isn't valid anymore, but the words are pretty much unchanged from 3.5 to pathfinder, and this was how a knight could attack with their horse.


shadowkras wrote:
Apparently, you cannot move your mount unless you spend a move action (free for whoever it is free) telling your mount to move wherever you want them to move.

Obviously you can:

Mounted Combat wrote:
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.

It goes where you tell it to go. What else would "as you direct it" mean?

shadowkras wrote:
But how would you tell your animal (companion or not) to go to a specific place you are pointing them to? How would you tell your mount that they have to move, what direction to move, and how far they should move?

If you're riding it, it goes as directed. It doesn't need to be told "go over there, 53 yards", you just need to turn it in the correct direction and tell it to go, then tell it to stop when you arrive.

If you're not riding it, then I agree that's a Handle Animal "push" at DC 25.


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Nefreet wrote:

A charge does NOT include an attack.

You MAY attack.

A rider and mount do indeed charge together. That is explicit from the FAQ.

That does not mean both attack at the end of a charge.

In fact, the mount that Fritz the Fighter is riding *can't*.

All it can do is charge, since it was never commanded to attack.

Right, both need to move to the square they could attack from though even if they don't take their attack. That's why you can't charge if you have different reach from your mount as it causes the mount or you to end in an invalid square.


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BigNorseWolf wrote:

What does Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount do that guide with knees does not? Sure, "use both hands in combat" might mean two fisting potions, but sans rules lawerying it means hitting things.

A knight hasn't been able to fight in tandem with his horse until the cavalier became a thing?

DC is the same as ordering an attack

BNW, Guide with the knees lets you move the mount while having two hands free.

attack with combat trained mount lets you attack when your mount also attacks. Without a success with that you can't attack after your mount attacks.


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As for this attacking business... I agree that the rules are a bit of a mess, but I don't think it has to be as heavy going as people are making it.

Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount wrote:
If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

Let's assume that this section is meaningful and usable in combat.

This only takes effect "If you direct...", so first you must direct it to attack. Otherwise this does not apply.

How do you direct it to attack? A simple and convenient interpretation is that directing is is just part of riding it:

mounted combat wrote:
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it.

Note the word "acts" rather than "moves". "Moving" wouldn't necessarily include attacking, acting probably does.

Say we have a fighter with a two-handed sword and spirited charge riding a combat-trained dinosaur. In this interpretation she declares a mounted charge as her full-round action, directing her dinosaur to charge and charging herself. This is obviously possible, because things don't need defining if you can't do them:

FAQ wrote:
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount.

So the dinosaur charges and its attack(s) will resolve. But she still has to pass a couple of Ride checks at DC 5 and DC 10 to attack herself with that two-handed weapon. If she does though, Spirited Charge kicks in and it's a good time for everyone except the target.

---

But what if we take a different interpretation of directing a mount to act?

Well then, in order for the quoted bit of ride to be meaningful and useful, we'd still need to be able to direct a mount to attack. That must be possible within the game. If we assume the quoted bit of mounted combat doesn't allow it, then it must be under Handle Animal, specifically the "attack" trick. In this interpretation, the "Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount" bit just means that your "Handle Animal: attack" usage goes from a (whatever) action to a free action.

Okay, so how do you charge under this interpretation? Well, an animal is able to charge. "Attack" directs an animal to attack, "if able", and there is no specific "Charge" trick. If the target is above one move+reach from you the only way it would be able to attack is if it could charge. Therefore "attack" must include charging. Since there is no additional wordcount making things more complicated, the choice of whether to move+attack or charge must lie with the player just like it does when the player moves their own character. And when the animal charges and the rider also wishes to charge, we're back to the FAQ and it's Mounted Charge time... if the player can make the skill checks.

So, example: the same fighter with a two-handed sword is riding the same combat-trained dinosaur in a game with a different and rather meaner GM. She directs the dinosaur to charge (handle animal attack trick, DC 10), and then makes a ride check (DC 10) to allow her to also attack. She also makes a ride check (DC 5) to guide with knees so that she can use her sword properly. If she fails the DC 10 ride check she won't be able to attack, and if she fails the DC 10 Handle Animal check then she's used her standard action and is pretty much useless this turn.

If she were a little worried about her Handle Animal check failing, the fighter could direct her dinosaur to move only, needing that DC 5 ride check to do so with her knees. The dinosaur would then definitely not attack, but she could.

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Both these interpretations are internally self-consistent as far as I can tell, and neither seems to conflict with anything explicitly stated nor make any stated rules nonsensical or useless. Both make for functional gameplay. Personally, I favour the former interpretation because it's simpler, involves fewer dice rolls, maintains a more intuitive (for me) skill separation, and doesn't shut down characters sometimes just because they rolled badly at low levels. Also I think "acts as you direct it" is pretty straightforward.


I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.

Quote:
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.


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wraithstrike wrote:

I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.

Quote:
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.

That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.

HOWWWWWWWWWWWWWWLLLL

"is this mountain on?"


wraithstrike wrote:

I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.

Quote:
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.

You're missing the IF, meaning IF you've done something to direct it to attack THEN you can attack too. Otherwise if your mount attacks you can't attack.

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