|
I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.
That quote doesn't mean what you think it means.
If you direct your mount to attack (using Handle Animal), then *you* can also attack.
That's what "Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount" is for.
You cannot use Ride to command your Mount to attack.
That's what Handle Animal is for.
|
|
Let's assume Fritz the Fighter is using a Greatsword, and he and his Mount are adjacent to a foe. These are the checks that Fritz requires:
Move action: command Mount to attack
Free action: guide with knees
Free action: fight with combat trained mount
Standard action: attack
This allows Fritz to 1) direct his Mount to attack, 2) use both his hands for the round, and 3) fight with his combat trained mount.
Three different checks, three different abilities.
|
|
Now let's assume Fritz the Fighter and his Mount are 30 feet away from a foe. These are the checks that Fritz requires:
Free action: guide with knees
Full action: charge
Note that because Fritz is using his full-round action to charge, he doesn't have a move action available to command his Mount to attack. Therefore, he does not need to make a check to fight with combat trained mount.
You're missing the IF, meaning IF you've done something to direct it to attack THEN you can attack too. Otherwise if your mount attacks you can't attack.I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.
When Pathfinder changes rules from 3.5 they tend to change the wording. Nothing in the wording has really changed to make me think that Paizo intends to use the rule differently than how Jason would have done it had he still been a 3.5 dev. I'm sure he was aware of how it worked before.
Now one can argue that maybe Jason forgot to change the words, and that is possible.
In that case I would say an FAQ is needed that answer this specific question. I am hoping nothing has changed because if they changed the way things worked, but didn't change the words then they need to tighten up a lot of other rules that got ported over.
Let's assume Fritz the Fighter is using a Greatsword, and he and his Mount are adjacent to a foe. These are the checks that Fritz requires:
Move action: command Mount to attack
Free action: guide with knees
Free action: fight with combat trained mount
Standard action: attackThis allows Fritz to 1) direct his Mount to attack, 2) use both his hands for the round, and 3) fight with his combat trained mount.
Three different checks, three different abilities.
2 and 3 are both ride checks and ride checks have no action attached to them.
I understand that that is would mean that an animal you are mounting is easier(faster due to ride skill) to command to attack that one that you are not riding, which I don't get the point of, but the rules seem to allow it.
edit: I am assuming that Frizt is actually on his mount, and not standing beside it.
I am creating an FAQ. Just so we are on the same page is the question "Can you make a combat trained mount attack with only the ride skill?" or should more be added to it to make it clear?
edit: added "combat trained"
2 and 3 are both ride checks and ride checks have no action attached to them.They are explicitly listed as Free actions.
I dont know how I missed that, but free actions aren't limited so despite me being blind momentarily my point is that it doesn't stop the mount from attacking.
PS: Yes, I am aware that the quoted area only applies to combat trained mounts. No, I don't think you need to have a combat trained mount to charge someone, and no I don't think the normal(not combat trained horse) gets to attack anyone on the charge. I think the word "charge" just means the horse is allowing the rider to make a charge attack.
Now I am thinking that we might need 2 FAQ's. One for just attacking and another for charging if someone thinks normal(not combat trained) horses still get to attack.
|
|
It's honestly so niche that I don't believe either is a frequently asked question.
If you're built around Mounted Combat, you're going to have both an Animal Companion and the ability to automatically succeed at your Ride checks.
In reality Fritz the Fighter is very rare, and he's probably a low level NPC.
Fighter instead if Cavalier as a mounted combatant is near insane anyway! You do get plenty of feats as a fighter and can make a capable mounted character. The power of a mounted character comes primarily from mounted with a lance. A lance has reach a horse or dog (the two most common mounts) does not have therefore the point is moot unless you are doing overrun rather than actual charge or ride by attack.
Who charges while mounted with a sword? You get Double Damage if you charge with a lance! The best weapon for mounted charging! Combine it with Rhino Hide Armor which doubles it again! Combine the whole thing with "Ride By Attack" so you can get space to charge for the next attack!
Mounted Combat is excellent in that it negates a hit for a Ride Check.
I find the Feat Tree for Mounted Combat most useful for a small sized character that can still ride in cramped quarters versus a medium sized character but it is good for all!
It's honestly so niche that I don't believe either is a frequently asked question.
If you're built around Mounted Combat, you're going to have both an Animal Companion and the ability to automatically succeed at your Ride checks.
In reality Fritz the Fighter is very rare, and he's probably a low level NPC.
True, it is not a frequently asked question, but the FAQ is also used to clear up things that people don't agree on, but this may be one of those topics that nobody(not literally) cares enough about to actually FAQ it.
Note that because Fritz is using his full-round action to charge, he doesn't have a move action available to command his Mount to attack. Therefore, he does not need to make a check to fight with combat trained mount.Maybe.
Then again, maybe Fiona the fighter uses a move action to order her mount to charge, which is an attack action and therefore culminates in the mount attacking.
She then makes a ride check to allow herself to attack normally, i.e. the way she would normally do when riding a charging mount, i.e. making a mounted charge.
this is wrong as per the FAQ where a mounted charge requires both rider and mount to charge in unison. That means each needs to make the full attack action of charge.
I am not taking side of the original poster in any way shape or form. That's their stance, that it takes an action to make a Ride check.
I never said that Ride takes a move action, I said that anything not covered by Ride should require a Handle Animal check, which for most people is a move action. Different things.
If you're riding it, it goes as directed. It doesn't need to be told "go over there, 53 yards", you just need to turn it in the correct direction and tell it to go, then tell it to stop when you arrive.
And what rule covers that? Normally, using handle animal will make the animal use their own judgment call to move and act, which could be dangerous depending on what lies on their path and they might not be aware off (enemies, traps, spell effects, etc). However, Ride allows you to guide their movement, that is crystal clear. But I don't see any written rule in Ride saying it allows you to command your mount to move or attack as a free action. That is just something commonly accepted as a fact, when in fact it is not.
As @BigNorseWolf pointed out, 3.5 had this clearer due to the published FAQs (which you should take into consideration very carefully), but Pathfinder lacks some of those clarifications completely.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
This in no form says it allows your mount to attack as a free action from the rider. It is saying that "if you direct your mount to attack" (using Handle Animal, not Ride), you (the rider) "can attack normally", when you normally wouldn't be able to because you would have to waste your action controlling your mount.
Move action: command Mount to attack
Free action: guide with knees
Free action: fight with combat trained mount
Standard action: attack
This is exactly the scenario I was describing. Fritz, the Fighter, will never be able to make a mounted combat check unless he multiclass or someone develops a new feat that allows non-pet classes to command their pets as free actions. Thank you.
In reality Fritz the Fighter is very rare, and he's probably a low level NPC.
The scenario is rare because we usually ignore mounts in our games completely. But no, the possibility is not rare and will happen to more than 50% of the classes in the game.
Fritz, the 20th level fighter will have this issue. Willian, the 20th level wizard will have this issue. Robert, the 20th level rogue will have this issue. And Claude, the 20th level cleric will have this issue. None of them can actually make a mounted charge or participate in a cavalry charge.Yes, even with the Animal Domain, because the domain doesn't grant clerics the ability to handle their pets as a free action.
Yes, even with the Animal Domain, because the domain doesn't grant clerics the ability to handle their pets as a free action.
Yes they can, anyone with an animal companion gets to make free action checks. It's the animal companion "Link" ability. That's what lets their masters give free action commands.
Yes, even with the Animal Domain, because the domain doesn't grant clerics the ability to handle their pets as a free action.
It does. Because link is on the animal companion, not the class giving it.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
If you for some reason think your understanding of the rules means that a normal warrior (the npc class) can't mount a horse (non-animal companion or other specially bonded creature) and use ride (not handle animal) to move around, fight, and charge from horseback you're interpretation is wrong.
The rules for mounted combat are poorly written, at times they are contradictory, but despite that there are definitely certain things that any character should be able to do without having any particularly special abilities. Fighting from horseback is a great example. The only one that presents a semi-problem is mounted charging (but can be resolved if you accept the attack granted by charge to be optional (for the mount) so that you don't need to make a handle animal check to attack with the mount or if you ignore the issue of reach and when a mount has to stop. *Normally unless you have a reach weapon your mount would have to stop at the first square you or it can make an attack, which can cause problems if you don't have the same reach*.
The rules for mounted combat are poorly written
THIS is the take away everyone should get from looking over everything. ALL you can do is piece things together in a way that allows things to work. If something doesn't work with one interpretation but works for another: use the one that works...
Disregard the comment about link, yes they do gain it. I was thinking about the bonus on handle animal checks with your companion.
@Lucy please don't put words in my mouth, you can read what I have written here and I don't have to join that dissing game you want me to.
We are not talking about characters that have link (pet-classes), those work just fine as the rules as written and the faq care about. The topic are those rules for characters without link (the majority of the population), where the rules simply do not work. If I have to draw this so you stop judging my intelligence then we can no longer have a civil discussion.
Move action: command Mount to attack
Free action: guide with knees
Free action: fight with combat trained mount
Standard action: attackThis is exactly the scenario I was describing. Fritz, the Fighter, will never be able to make a mounted combat check unless he multiclass or someone develops a new feat that allows non-pet classes to command their pets as free actions. Thank you.
this is wrong as per the FAQ where a mounted charge requires both rider and mount to charge in unison. That means each needs to make the full attack action of charge.But if that were so, they could never charge. Charging is a move and an attack. If the only way to make the mount move and attack is via the handle animal skill (Nefreet's position), and that's not a swift or free action by default, then by default characters can't charge whilst mounted. Which is silly.
It's also only one possible interpretation of the rules, because it conflicts with a sentence in the mounted combat rules and one under the ride skill.
Which rule is it conflicting with? My interpretation is made from trying to take all the rules we have and not break any.
There are plenty of rules that are gated by feats or classes that seem silly to gate. Being able to be less accurate but hitting harder is a feat for an example.
But take the animal ally feat for any default person and you now have a mount you can charge with.
My apologies if "dissing" is not the correct word, but it's the closest I found to the translation in my country for the act of saying "your argument is silly" during a discussion.
|
|
But she asked a valid question. What are you here for?
We've explained and quoted multiple times how this works, and you keep disregarding our answers.
After a certain point, when it's everybody explaining the same thing, maybe consider that it's your interpretation of the text that's incorrect, and not the ability itself.
Is there anything we could conceivably answer you with that will satisfy you? If the answer is "no", then we're done here.
@Nefreet this not a discussion of who is right or wrong.
You agreed with me that Fritz the fighter cannot make a mounted charge. And I said that he is not alone on that, only classes with access to "link" are able to do that.
People are saying that the rules are fine and he can charge just fine, which I disagree with.
Ride allows the rider to do many things, but none of those things is commanding your mount to charge as a free action.
I just don't get how this can still be debated. PCs (of whatever class, and without any special feats) mounted on horseback can both fight from horseback and charge into combat. The basic rules in the combat section of the CRB tell us how that works, and we really shouldn't try to overthink it.
Your mount acts on your initiative count as you direct it. You move at its speed, but the mount uses its action to move.
I had always assumed the rider had to use his move action at the same time, but this is apparently wrong. He could, say, draw a weapon or use some other non-movement move action, and still be ready for a single combat action.
With a DC 5 Ride check, you can guide your mount with your knees so as to use both hands to attack or defend yourself. This is a free action.
When you attack a creature smaller than your mount that is on foot, you get the +1 bonus on melee attacks for being on higher ground. If your mount moves more than 5 feet, you can only make a single melee attack. Essentially, you have to wait until the mount gets to your enemy before attacking, so you can’t make a full attack. Even at your mount’s full speed, you don’t take any penalty on melee attacks while mounted.
So there is obviously no problem with directing your mount to move, and then attacking normally with your melee weapon.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
You and your mount are both charging, and you get to make an attack at the end of the charge. No special feats necessary. No need to resort to the handle animal rules.
Now, getting your mount to attack is not one of the things that is clearly defined. The CRB for this refers you to the handle animals rules which don't deal with the action necessary for a rider to get his combat-trained mount to attack. IMHO, you should be able to get your combat trained mount to attack, as a free action, using the ride skill. But the rules don't seem to talk about that.
Similarly, trampling foes is not well defined by the rules. Trampling is stated as requiring a full-round action, which would seem to negate any chance of a normal attack in the round, or even combining a trampling attack with a charge. However, the trampling rules refer us on to the overrun rules, which state:
As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square.
Now *this* seems to imply you can take a full-round action to charge, attack with your lance or other weapon, have your combat-trained mount attack *and* trample other foes along the way. But getting there is convoluted and it's difficult to make concise RAW arguments about how mounted combat is supposed to work.
IMHO, it would have been a whole lot better if the mounted combat rules were more fully elaborated, including funky interaction with various feats.
In my RotRL campaign, we do a lot of overland travel, which means characters are mounted much of the time, even though none of my current PCs has specialized in mounted combat at all. I'm not a fan of hiding normal combat options behind feats, so what I want to see in this thread is broad consensus that the standard mounted combat rules deal adequately with Joe the Adventurer riding into combat with no special feats.
|
|
You agreed with me that Fritz the fighter cannot make a mounted charge.
I absolutely did not. In fact I explicitly disagreed with you. If you believe I'm on your side then that highlights why some of us are getting frustrated repeatedly explaining this to you.
Please reread my posts.
When Fritz the Fighter charges from horseback (which we explicitly know he can do), the only thing that he cannot also do is command his Mount to attack.
He cannot do this because he has already utilized his full-round action to charge.
And that's perfectly acceptable. If the player of Fritz the Fighter wanted to utilize his Mount more often, he should have built Fritz to be a pet class.
But Fritz the Fighter only cares about himself, and nothing prevents him from charging an enemy while mounted.
If you still refuse to accept what we're telling you, then we're done here. At this point it becomes your interpretation that is malfunctioning, and not the text you're reading.
|
|
And because people keep getting this wrong as well, I shall quote the Core Rulebook:
After moving, you may make a single melee attack.
This is a separate subsection of Charge.
Charging is just movement. Once that movement has culminated, you may also attack.
But a charge does not necessitate an attack. And, indeed, if it did, then Fritz the Fighter truly couldn't charge from horseback, because he would have to also command his Mount to attack (which he doesn't have the actions to do).
But since attacking is not required of a charge, Fritz the Fighter is fine. The only thing he misses out on is getting some extra damage from his Mount.
From the FAQ:
A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.
Even if the mount moves on your action (using a free action from a Ride check or a free handle animal check), the mount cannot charge because the mount wasn't commanded to charge.
EDIT
I just saw your follow-up post. So we are in the same line.
However, I do not agree with the interpretation that a charge is a movement that allows a free attack. Charge is a full-round action that combines movement and attack. I never heard of charging and deciding not to attack simply because you wanted to benefit from doing a charge (double movement or some other special ability).
This is the first time I hear about this, and probably why we were going back and forth on this discussion.
From combat:
Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. Charging, however, carries tight restrictions on how you can move.
After moving, you may make a single melee attack. You get a +2 bonus on the attack roll and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn.
But seems you are right and I stand corrected.
EDIT
You are indeed a troll. Thank you for showing your true colors.
That was unnecessary. If you cannot discuss things without offending someone, refrain from replying on a discussion board.
And because people keep getting this wrong as well, I shall quote the Core Rulebook:After moving, you may make a single melee attack.This is a separate subsection of Charge.
Charging is just movement. Once that movement has culminated, you may also attack.
But a charge does not necessitate an attack. And, indeed, if it did, then Fritz the Fighter truly couldn't charge from horseback, because he would have to also command his Mount to attack (which he doesn't have the actions to do).
But since attacking is not required of a charge, Fritz the Fighter is fine. The only thing he misses out on is getting some extra damage from his Mount.
But they are still required to end at the first square they can attack from with their charge, which if you have more reach than your mount still causes issues and prevents the charge.
But they are still required to end at the first square they can attack from with their charge, which if you have more reach than your mount still causes issues and prevents the charge.
Why???
You're charging *with* your mount. The basic mounted combat rules specifically state that you and your mount charge together, and that you then take a single melee attack.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).
So why would there be "issues" and why would it "prevent the charge"?
I've said several times that the various mounted combat rules are not internally consistent, but not regarding the charge itself.
I was agreeing with your logic for bringing into light things that I had not considered. The first time I agreed was because you had shown a breakdown on how the action economy would go (attacking requires a move action), and the second because you said that a certain interpretation of the rules (which I had) wouldn't allow Fritz to charge. You can argue and diss me all you want, but this is not the place for that. Since it seems that we cannot have a civil conversation, you can ignore my posts, Nefreet.
To everybody else, seems that some people understand that Ride can be used to make a mount Charge, which is a stretch of the "ride" mention on the skill. A charge is a move+attack, while the attack is optional at the end of the movement.
I personally do not agree (from my reading of the rules, since we have to make that clear around here) with claiming that charge is a movement and that a you can make your mount charge as a free action. I don't see that written and it's not crystal clear to me as some people are trying to make it to be.
@Wheldrake that quote would normally be fine, but the FAQ seems to break it when it claims that both must use their own actions to charge together.
Can you use Ride to make your mount Charge as a free action?
The published FAQ says that the mount and rider must charge, but making your mount attack is handled by Handle Animal, while making your mount to move is handled by Ride.
But they are still required to end at the first square they can attack from with their charge, which if you have more reach than your mount still causes issues and prevents the charge.Why???
You're charging *with* your mount. The basic mounted combat rules specifically state that you and your mount charge together, and that you then take a single melee attack.
If your mount charges, you also take the AC penalty associated with a charge. If you make an attack at the end of the charge, you receive the bonus gained from the charge. When charging on horseback, you deal double damage with a lance (see Charge).So why would there be "issues" and why would it "prevent the charge"?
I've said several times that the various mounted combat rules are not internally consistent, but not regarding the charge itself.
That line is set to be errata'd and has a FAQ on it that has already been mentioned in this thread. The FAQ says that you and your mount must charge in unison for a mounted charge.
I don't know if anyone quoted this. I may have overlooked it, but this is from the ride skill section.
Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount: If you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.That means that you can make your mount attack. No handle animal check is needed in this case.
That quote doesn't mean what you think it means.
If you direct your mount to attack (using Handle Animal), then *you* can also attack.
That's what "Fight with a Combat-Trained Mount" is for.
You cannot use Ride to command your Mount to attack.
That's what Handle Animal is for.
I have to ask a few questions about your interpretation.
1) Are you suggesting that the text really means, "If you previously directed your war-trained mount to attack during a different round, with a different skill in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action?
If so, that seems like a serious stretch to me.
I believe a much simpler and less creative change to the wording would be:
If While you direct your war-trained mount to attack in battle, you can still make your own attack or attacks normally. This usage is a free action.
If and While can be changed without changing the meaning. The only difference is in the style of the conversation. The interpretation that I believe you have requires a lot more to be read into.
I also cannot think of another skill check that requires a successful, separate skill check on a different round before this check could even be attempted.
2) What exactly is the free action that you gain by trying this usage of the skill? You are saying that you have to direct the attack in a previous round, so that isn't a free action. We all know the rider's attack isn't a free action. We all know that you wouldn't have to make a special check just to attack from horseback. And if the horse was attacking without your direction, you wouldn't need to make this check either. So what is the actual benefit of this check?
I absolutely posit that they free action gained (as in you have to succeed to gain something) is directing the mount to attack as said free action.
3) What would you say about the action economy of Cleave? "As a standard action, you can make a single attack at your full base attack bonus against a foe within reach. If you hit, you deal damage normally and can make an additional attack (using your full base attack bonus) against a foe that is adjacent to the first and also within reach."
First sentence is a standard action. Second sentence is also a standard action (as in, attacks not named otherwise are standard actions). Nothing in Cleave ever states that the "additional attack" is made in the same round, is a free attack, or is a free action. So I am assuming that the benefit would only be gained on the following round, correct?
I'm not trying to be a jerk. We all know that the Cleave rules are self-contained. I am pointing out that it is harder to believe that you get a free action attack from the absolute wording of Cleave than it is to believe that you use ride to direct a war trained mount to attack as a free action for the rider. The skill specifically states the usage (extra action economy in the form of an attack) is a free action whereas the usage of Cleave (extra action economy in the form of an attack) never states it is a free action.