paizo.com Recent Posts in Companion Archtypes confusionpaizo.com Recent Posts in Companion Archtypes confusion2022-12-13T13:37:34Z2022-12-13T13:37:34ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionDeathlessOnehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#462022-12-14T20:56:42Z2022-12-14T20:56:42Z<p>The well informed GM of the game in question.</p>The well informed GM of the game in question.DeathlessOne2022-12-14T20:56:42ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionAwesomenessDoghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#452022-12-14T01:42:46Z2022-12-14T01:42:46Z<p>It's almost as if we need to stop paying attention to only RAW and start looking at valid interpretations of publisher's intent, only question is, <b>whose interpretation</b>...</p>
<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>grabs popcorn</span></p>It's almost as if we need to stop paying attention to only RAW and start looking at valid interpretations of publisher's intent, only question is, whose interpretation...
grabs popcornAwesomenessDog2022-12-14T01:42:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionBelafonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#442022-12-13T21:01:21Z2022-12-13T20:49:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Earlier in the thread Belafon wrote:</div><blockquote>…<b> Even in the case of specific abilities, it would be complicated</b>. If you blocked companions whose masters don't have spellcasting from trading Share Spells, you also have to block the <i>master</i> from ever taking levels in a class that grants a companion and spells.</blockquote><p><span class=messageboard-ooc>The rest of my post is screaming about “edge case, edge case, edge case!” In this particular situation if you only denied companions whose masters don’t get spells from taking archetypes that trade out Share Spells, you could end up with the horse of a cavalier 1/Druid 19 (in that order) not able to take such an archetype but a Druid 1/Cavalier 19 (in that order) could. Or what if they started with one level of ranger then went cavalier? They don’t have spells or a companion from ranger yet but they hypothetically could in the future. Can they trade out Share Spells?
<p>So many edge cases.</span></p>Earlier in the thread Belafon wrote:… Even in the case of specific abilities, it would be complicated. If you blocked companions whose masters don't have spellcasting from trading Share Spells, you also have to block the master from ever taking levels in a class that grants a companion and spells.
The rest of my post is screaming about “edge case, edge case, edge case!” In this particular situation if you only denied companions whose masters don’t get spells from taking archetypes that trade...Belafon2022-12-13T20:49:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#432022-12-13T20:57:59Z2022-12-13T20:05:41Z<p>When I said that “I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion and the Share Spells feature ONLY works with spells cast from classes that grant animal companions” I was paraphrasing the prerequisites NOT making an off-hand rules pronouncement on the prerequisites of the Animal Ally feat as the prerequisites of the feat were tangential to the point I was making. It is regrettable that Phoebus Alexandros took this paraphrasing as a direct quote of the prerequisites. However barring 3rd party content and the Eldritch Heritage/Sylvan Bloodline method of acquiring an animal companion (which I deliberately did not mention as that has been heavily debated due to the fact that the power that grants the companion also swaps out the Sylvan Bloodline Arcana and I didn’t want an argument about that to pop up in this thread.) what I said was FUNCTIONALLY accurate as TO MY KNOWLEDGE the only other way to gain an animal companion is by taking levels in a class that grants one. </p>
<p>Now I don’t think that Phoebus Alexandros was being obtuse and I recognize that he had a legitimate question about what I said. It seemed to me that he was operating from an incorrect assumption that my paraphrasing of the prerequisites would somehow exclude classes that possess animal companions as a NORM who then swap out their animal companions or mounts for other features. In my “8 line paragraph” I was trying to convey to him that classes that usually have animal companions that swap those features out no longer count as classes that grant animal companions/mounts and by either my paraphrasing or a strict legalistic reading of the prerequisites they then DO qualify to take the Animal Ally feat. My INTENTION was to clarify things not to cause more confusion.</p>When I said that “I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion and the Share Spells feature ONLY works with spells cast from classes that grant animal companions” I was paraphrasing the prerequisites NOT making an off-hand rules pronouncement on the prerequisites of the Animal Ally feat as the prerequisites of the feat were tangential to the point I was making. It is regrettable that Phoebus...Trokarr2022-12-13T20:05:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionPhoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#422022-12-13T17:05:19Z2022-12-13T17:05:19Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lelomenia wrote:</div><blockquote>Your point was that if you got an Animal Companion through the Animal Ally feat, Share Spells is a dead feature. And that’s a valid comment no matter how obtuse people want to be.</blockquote><p>No one is trying to be obtuse, Lelomenia. I asked a question in good faith purely on the basis of a character I'm playing and what was stated by Trokarr, above.Lelomenia wrote:Your point was that if you got an Animal Companion through the Animal Ally feat, Share Spells is a dead feature. And that’s a valid comment no matter how obtuse people want to be.
No one is trying to be obtuse, Lelomenia. I asked a question in good faith purely on the basis of a character I'm playing and what was stated by Trokarr, above.Phoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)2022-12-13T17:05:19ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionDerklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#412022-12-13T16:22:46Z2022-12-13T16:22:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trokarr wrote:</div><blockquote> Yes that was the point I was trying to make thank you. Sorry if I was unclear.</blockquote><p>It's less that you were unclear, and more that you said something wrong even, even though the overall point you were making was correct. You're <i>entirely right</i> that an AC gained from Animal Ally can never benefit from Share Spells, and yet can trade out the ability for an archetype. But you also made the statement "I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion", and this statement is factually wrong (or requires eight lines of notes).
<p>Phoebus Alexandros didn't make his post in an attempt top school you, but rather because he was genuinly confused as a result of your factually wrong statement. That is why I spoke out.</p>Trokarr wrote:Yes that was the point I was trying to make thank you. Sorry if I was unclear.
It's less that you were unclear, and more that you said something wrong even, even though the overall point you were making was correct. You're entirely right that an AC gained from Animal Ally can never benefit from Share Spells, and yet can trade out the ability for an archetype. But you also made the statement "I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not...Derklord2022-12-13T16:22:46ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#402022-12-13T15:16:59Z2022-12-13T15:16:59Z<p>Phoebus wrote “I don't see anything in that description that disqualifies a Paladin who chose to take a Divine Bond with his weapon, or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions, from taking the Animal Ally feat.” The point I was TRYING (unsuccessfully it seems) with my “8 line paragraph” was that even IF the prerequisites of Animal Ally contained the phrase “you must not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” the 2 examples listed by Phoebus would not be considered as levels in a class that grants an animal companion anyways because they chose different options. </p>
<p>I would like to point out that I never said that “NOT possessing levels of a class was that grants an animal companion or mount” was a prerequisite of animal ally I said that “you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” this was meant as a practical observation on reliable methods of gaining an animal companion because (other than the Eldritch Heritage route which some people find contentious) the only other reliable way of gaining an animal companion is through taking levels in a class that grants one. NOBODY was talking about the prerequisites for Animal Ally previous to this. I guess I could have chosen my wording a bit better but I didn’t think my a phrase I wrote making an entirely separate point would be so taken out of context.</p>Phoebus wrote “I don't see anything in that description that disqualifies a Paladin who chose to take a Divine Bond with his weapon, or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions, from taking the Animal Ally feat.” The point I was TRYING (unsuccessfully it seems) with my “8 line paragraph” was that even IF the prerequisites of Animal Ally contained the phrase “you must not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” the 2 examples listed by...Trokarr2022-12-13T15:16:59ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#392022-12-13T13:38:51Z2022-12-13T13:38:51Z<p>Yes that was the point I was trying to make thank you. Sorry if I was unclear.</p>Yes that was the point I was trying to make thank you. Sorry if I was unclear.Trokarr2022-12-13T13:38:51ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionLelomeniahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#382022-12-13T13:42:47Z2022-12-13T13:27:44Z<p>You can also get an animal companion via, e.g., Exotic Heritage feat line.</p>
<p>Your point was that if you got an Animal Companion through the Animal Ally feat, Share Spells is a dead feature. And that’s a valid comment no matter how obtuse people want to be.<div class="messageboard-quotee">Phoebus Alexandros wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Lelomenia wrote:</div><blockquote><p>he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.</p>
<p>You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.</p>
<p>I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here. </blockquote>With respect, “you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” and “must not have an animal companion” are two different things. </blockquote><p>they are very different. But, if you have an Animal Companion from a class (which is a practical requirement foe Share Spells to work), you generally don’t qualify for Animal Ally because of the prereq. If that sounds really obvious, it is.
<p>Animal Ally doesn’t care about whether the Companion is granted by a class, but Share Spells does.</p>You can also get an animal companion via, e.g., Exotic Heritage feat line.
Your point was that if you got an Animal Companion through the Animal Ally feat, Share Spells is a dead feature. And that’s a valid comment no matter how obtuse people want to be.Phoebus Alexandros wrote:Lelomenia wrote:he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.
You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.
I don’t see a real...Lelomenia2022-12-13T13:27:44ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#372022-12-13T11:20:41Z2022-12-13T11:20:41Z<p>“Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). SPELLS CAST in this way must come from a CLASS that GRANTS an ANIMAL COMPANION. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.”</p>
<p>Now here’s a quote of what I said “I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion and the Share Spells feature ONLY works with SPELLS CAST from CLASSES that GRANT ANIMAL COMPANIONS.” My point was about share spells not the prerequisites for Animal Ally. </p>
<p>That said unless I’m mistaken the only way I know of to gain an animal companion WITHOUT taking levels in a class that grants one is WITH Animal Ally so it would no be possible to gain an animal companion/mount WITHOUT taking levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount.</p>“Share Spells (Ex): The druid may cast a spell with a target of “You” on her animal companion (as a spell with a range of touch) instead of on herself. A druid may cast spells on her animal companion even if the spells normally do not affect creatures of the companion's type (animal). SPELLS CAST in this way must come from a CLASS that GRANTS an ANIMAL COMPANION. This ability does not allow the animal to share abilities that are not spells, even if they function like spells.”
Now here’s a...Trokarr2022-12-13T11:20:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionDerklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#362022-12-13T10:29:58Z2022-12-13T10:29:58Z<p>You keep talking about "levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount", why? That's not the prereq. What does or doesn't count as "a class that grants an animal companion or mount" is utterly irrelevant for the topic.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trokarr wrote:</div><blockquote>I stand by my previous statement.</blockquote><p>Then you lack the intellectual honesty to admit having been wrong.
<p>That you just needed a eight line paragraph to explain what "levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount" even is shows how inappropriate and unclear that phrase is, and also perfectly shows why it <i>isn't</i> used by the feat.</p>You keep talking about "levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount", why? That's not the prereq. What does or doesn't count as "a class that grants an animal companion or mount" is utterly irrelevant for the topic.
Trokarr wrote:I stand by my previous statement.
Then you lack the intellectual honesty to admit having been wrong. That you just needed a eight line paragraph to explain what "levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount" even is shows how...Derklord2022-12-13T10:29:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#352022-12-13T08:57:20Z2022-12-13T08:57:20Z<p>If you have an archetype that swaps out the animal companion or mount class feature then you do not possess levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount. The same is true in reverse if you take an option or archetype that grants an animal companion or mount on a class that normally does not possess one. Levels in Oracle is not a class that grants an animal companion or mount unless you take a revelation that grants one (primal companion and bonded mount specifically). Levels in Feral Hunter is a class that does not grant an animal companion. If you your chosen class/archetype gives you an animal companion then you possess levels in a class that grants an animal companion. If your class/archetype does not grant an animal companion then you do not possess levels in a class that grants an animal companion. It is entirely irrelevant if possessing or not possessing an animal companion/mount is the NORM for that class. I stand by my previous statement. I do believe there is an FAQ that confirms this however I do not have the time to go hunting for it at the moment.</p>If you have an archetype that swaps out the animal companion or mount class feature then you do not possess levels in a class that grants an animal companion or mount. The same is true in reverse if you take an option or archetype that grants an animal companion or mount on a class that normally does not possess one. Levels in Oracle is not a class that grants an animal companion or mount unless you take a revelation that grants one (primal companion and bonded mount specifically). Levels in...Trokarr2022-12-13T08:57:20ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionPhoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#342022-12-13T02:41:27Z2022-12-13T02:41:27Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lelomenia wrote:</div><blockquote><p>he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.</p>
<p>You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.</p>
<p>I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here. </blockquote><p>With respect, “you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” and “must not have an animal companion” are two different things.Lelomenia wrote:he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.
You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.
I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here.
With respect, “you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion” and “must not have an animal companion” are two different things.Phoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)2022-12-13T02:41:27ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionDerklordhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#332022-12-13T00:12:19Z2022-12-13T00:07:39Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lelomenia wrote:</div><blockquote><p>he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.</p>
<p>You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.</p>
<p>I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here. </blockquote><p>If the prereq actually was "no levels in a class that grants an animal companion", any Paladin levels would prevent one from taking Animal Ally. That would make the feat significantly different.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Belafon wrote:</div><blockquote>The animal companion archetype multiattack "problem" is a problem that didn't need fixing.</blockquote><p>I disagree. The underlying problem is how horribly balanced animal companions are to begin with: There is no tradeoff for big cat, because animals max out at three attacks (apart from very rare exceptions), and thus you don't actually have to decide between different strengths and weaknesses.
<p>With UW's nerf, you at least have a decision to make if you want one of the respective archetypes - pounce, or the archetype. It may not be well done, but at least the idea behind it is sound.</p>Lelomenia wrote:he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.
You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.
I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here.
If the prereq actually was "no levels in a class that grants an animal companion", any Paladin levels would prevent one from taking Animal Ally. That would make the feat significantly different. Belafon wrote:The animal companion archetype...Derklord2022-12-13T00:07:39ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionBelafonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#322022-12-12T23:39:41Z2022-12-12T23:39:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Phoebus Alexandros wrote:</div><blockquote> . . .or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions. . . </blockquote><p>Hey, don’t go badmouthing bonding with companions! Even without one of the archetypes that add extra abilities to the bond, those bonuses can be pretty awesome. Especially since the book that caused this thread (Ultimate Wilderness) introduced <a href=" https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Improved%20Hunter%27s%20Bond" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Improved Hunter’s Bond</a> and <a href=" https://www.aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Greater%20Hunter%27s%20Bond" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Greater Hunter’s Bond</a>.Phoebus Alexandros wrote:. . .or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions. . .
Hey, don’t go badmouthing bonding with companions! Even without one of the archetypes that add extra abilities to the bond, those bonuses can be pretty awesome. Especially since the book that caused this thread (Ultimate Wilderness) introduced Improved Hunter’s Bond and Greater Hunter’s Bond.Belafon2022-12-12T23:39:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionLelomeniahttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#312022-12-12T22:45:26Z2022-12-12T22:45:26Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Phoebus Alexandros wrote:</div><blockquote><p> <a href="https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animal%20Ally" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Are we reading the same feat?</a> Alternately, has there been a FAQ to the feat in question? I'm asking sincerely, because what you are positing here conflicts with the way my GM and I have handled an active character of mine.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Faiths and Philosophies wrote:</div><blockquote><p><b>Prerequisites:</b> Nature Soul, character level 4th, <i>must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion.</i> (emphasis mine)</p>
<p><b>Benefit:</b> You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.</blockquote>I don't see anything in that description that disqualifies a Paladin who chose to take a Divine Bond with his weapon, or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions, from taking the Animal Ally feat. </blockquote><p>he said you can’t take Animal Ally if you have a class that grants an animal companion.
<p>You are saying you can take Animal Ally if your classes don’t grant an Animal Companion.</p>
<p>I don’t see a real disagreement/contradiction here.</p>Phoebus Alexandros wrote:Are we reading the same feat? Alternately, has there been a FAQ to the feat in question? I'm asking sincerely, because what you are positing here conflicts with the way my GM and I have handled an active character of mine.
Faiths and Philosophies wrote:Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion. (emphasis mine)
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your...Lelomenia2022-12-12T22:45:26ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionPhoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#302022-12-12T21:40:45Z2022-12-12T21:38:36Z<p><a href="https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Animal%20Ally" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Are we reading the same feat?</a> Alternately, has there been a FAQ to the feat in question? I'm asking sincerely, because what you are positing here conflicts with the way my GM and I have handled an active character of mine.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Faiths and Philosophies wrote:</div><blockquote><p><b>Prerequisites:</b> Nature Soul, character level 4th, <i>must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion.</i> (emphasis mine)</p>
<p><b>Benefit:</b> You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 from the following list: badger, bird, camel, cat (small), dire rat, dog, horse, pony, snake (viper), or wolf. If you later gain an animal companion through another source (such as the Animal domain, divine bond, hunter’s bond, mount, or nature bond class features), the effective druid level granted by this feat stacks with that granted by other sources.</blockquote><p>I don't see anything in that description that disqualifies a Paladin who chose to take a Divine Bond with his weapon, or a Ranger who (for whatever reason) chose a Hunter's Bond with his companions, from taking the Animal Ally feat.Are we reading the same feat? Alternately, has there been a FAQ to the feat in question? I'm asking sincerely, because what you are positing here conflicts with the way my GM and I have handled an active character of mine.
Faiths and Philosophies wrote:Prerequisites: Nature Soul, character level 4th, must not have an animal companion or mount that advances as an animal companion. (emphasis mine)
Benefit: You gain an animal companion as if you were a druid of your character level –3 from the...Phoebus Alexandros (alias of Kalthanan)2022-12-12T21:38:36ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#292022-12-12T08:45:41Z2022-12-12T08:45:41Z<p>I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion and the Share Spells feature ONLY works with spells cast from classes that grant animal companions. By default the Share Spells feature is a dead feature with Animal Ally. The ONLY way to make use of it is to take levels in a spellcasting class that grants an animal companion AFTER you have acquired the companion and chosen any archetype you wish. It’s doubly stupid to ban archetypes that swap out a class feature that is at least marginally useful yet allow archetypes that swap out a class feature that is dead by default.</p>I think it’s worth noting that you can’t take the Animal Ally feat unless you do not have levels in a class that grants an animal companion and the Share Spells feature ONLY works with spells cast from classes that grant animal companions. By default the Share Spells feature is a dead feature with Animal Ally. The ONLY way to make use of it is to take levels in a spellcasting class that grants an animal companion AFTER you have acquired the companion and chosen any archetype you wish. It’s...Trokarr2022-12-12T08:45:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionBelafonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#282022-12-11T17:14:07Z2022-12-11T17:14:07Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trokarr wrote:</div><blockquote> Also any archetype of Samurai that has a mount. </blockquote><p>Samurai mounts, like cavaliers', do not get the share spells ability in the first place and therefore cannot take an archetype that trades it out.
<p>Those archetypes you mentioned, and Animal Ally, do get Share Spells for their companions despite not having spellcasting. I figured there probably were some archetypes of spellcasting classes that get Share Spells.</p>Trokarr wrote:Also any archetype of Samurai that has a mount.
Samurai mounts, like cavaliers', do not get the share spells ability in the first place and therefore cannot take an archetype that trades it out. Those archetypes you mentioned, and Animal Ally, do get Share Spells for their companions despite not having spellcasting. I figured there probably were some archetypes of spellcasting classes that get Share Spells.Belafon2022-12-11T17:14:07ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionBelafonhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#272022-12-11T17:14:29Z2022-12-11T17:09:31Z<p>I agree with two main complaints being voiced here:</p>
<p>1) The animal companion archetype multiattack "problem" is a problem that didn't need fixing.
<br />
2) If you are going to ban "something for nothing" for one case, you should ban it for all cases.</p>
<p>I will write a slight defense of the designers on point 2, though. Some things are a lot easier to explicitly spell out than other things. If you just write "an animal companion can't take an archetype if they would be trading out an ability that doesn't benefit them" then that is really vague. You'd have all kinds of arguments about what is a "benefit," variants on "well, you <i>could</i> have taken this feat which <i>would</i> have made it a benefit" and edge case after edge case. Trokarr pointed out above an edge case where multiattack could, in fact, be considered to benefit my tiger.
<br />
[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>So writing a general "no something for nothing" rule is just leaving it up to the GM (which it already is). Even in the case of specific abilities, it would be complicated. If you blocked companions whose masters don't have spellcasting from trading Share Spells, you also have to block the <i>master</i> from ever taking levels in a class that grants a companion and spells.</p>
<p>Again, I agree that the whole multiattack rule in UW was unnecessary, but I can see why they didn't try to expand it.</p>I agree with two main complaints being voiced here:
1) The animal companion archetype multiattack "problem" is a problem that didn't need fixing.
2) If you are going to ban "something for nothing" for one case, you should ban it for all cases.
I will write a slight defense of the designers on point 2, though. Some things are a lot easier to explicitly spell out than other things. If you just write "an animal companion can't take an archetype if they would be trading out an ability that...Belafon2022-12-11T17:09:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#262022-12-11T06:24:20Z2022-12-11T06:24:20Z<p>For that matter ANY class can take the Animal Ally feat and still take an archetype that swaps out Share Spells.</p>For that matter ANY class can take the Animal Ally feat and still take an archetype that swaps out Share Spells.Trokarr2022-12-11T06:24:20ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#252022-12-11T06:22:47Z2022-12-11T06:22:47Z<p>Also any archetype of Samurai that has a mount.</p>Also any archetype of Samurai that has a mount.Trokarr2022-12-11T06:22:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionTrokarrhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#242022-12-11T06:20:31Z2022-12-11T06:20:31Z<p>Mad Dog Barbarian, Mounted Fury Vigilante, and Wild Child Brawler are 3 examples of archetypes with animal companions that do not possess spellcasting. There are probably more but these are the ones that came to mind.</p>Mad Dog Barbarian, Mounted Fury Vigilante, and Wild Child Brawler are 3 examples of archetypes with animal companions that do not possess spellcasting. There are probably more but these are the ones that came to mind.Trokarr2022-12-11T06:20:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionName Violationhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#232022-12-11T02:38:43Z2022-12-11T02:38:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Trokarr wrote:</div><blockquote> Might be hard if you don’t have Ultimate Wilderness. Not a hundred percent sure it’s even on AoN. The rule was placed in the text before the list of archetypes in that book I believe. It may not have made it onto AoN. </blockquote><p>so the rule isnt in the online prd, AND PFS ignored it...
<p>well now i dont feel so bad about not hearing it before</p>Trokarr wrote:Might be hard if you don’t have Ultimate Wilderness. Not a hundred percent sure it’s even on AoN. The rule was placed in the text before the list of archetypes in that book I believe. It may not have made it onto AoN.
so the rule isnt in the online prd, AND PFS ignored it... well now i dont feel so bad about not hearing it beforeName Violation2022-12-11T02:38:43ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Companion Archtypes confusionAwesomenessDoghttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2upuj?Companion-Archtypes-confusion#222022-12-11T02:28:07Z2022-12-11T02:28:07Z<p>Any ranger archetype that trades spells, any paladin archetype that trades spells, fighters can take familiars apparently, and so on.</p>Any ranger archetype that trades spells, any paladin archetype that trades spells, fighters can take familiars apparently, and so on.AwesomenessDog2022-12-11T02:28:07Z