Ill Oman


Rules Questions


Just a question regarding Ill Oman. If my familiar uses a wand of Ill Oman on the enemy and my turn comes right after his and I follow up with a Stinking Cloud spell, can the enemy (assuming he has ranks in Spellcraft) say a quick prayer and spend a move action to negate the Ill Oman on my turn? Or can they not take a move action to negate it while it's still in the middle of my turn and thus have to roll twice for the Stinking Cloud?


He can only take a move action on his own turn.


Nice thank you, do you know how the Spell Resistance would work? What would the caster level check on my Familiar be?


The caster level is based off the CL of the wand, so Ill Omen will be CL 1. If you have to roll against SR, your check will be 1d20+1.


Ohh, that's rough against anything with SR :|


Could my FD use the wand and follow it up right after with a hex like Misfortune? Would it still need to penetrate SR?

Paizo Employee Designer

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While it was at its peak in the 19th century when it controlled the Strait of Hormuz to modern-day Iran and Pakistan and south to Zanzibar, I wouldn't necessarily call it ill. It was rated most improved nation in terms of development in 2010, which isn't bad, right?


Boooo

What are you doing making puns when you could be addressing rule disputes.

Or better yet.. creating content =P

Besides, everyone knows it was the Ottoman Empire that was sick...

Paizo Employee Designer

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Perfect Tommy wrote:

Boooo

What are you doing making puns when you could be addressing rule disputes.

Or better yet.. creating content =P

Besides, everyone knows it was the Ottoman Empire that was sick...

I was this close to working the Ottoman Empire into that but I couldn't think of a natural segue.

As to the thread's real topic, we still haven't gotten to the real reason that the hypothetical enemy with Spellcraft can still get around being screwed by the wand...


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Right, I was about to get to that. If the enemy has Spellcraft, when you cast your follow up spell he makes a Spellcraft check before the save, so the save isn’t penalized. Ill Omen doesn’t really come into its own as self help until you get multiple rerolls and can quicken it.


Xenocrat wrote:
Right, I was about to get to that. If the enemy has Spellcraft, when you cast your follow up spell he makes a Spellcraft check before the save, so the save isn’t penalized. Ill Omen doesn’t really come into its own as self help until you get multiple rerolls and can quicken it.

Ahh i wasn't aware the spellcraft is made for the followup spell, so your saying an Ill Oman followed by a hex (supernatural ability) would work 100% as it ignores SR correct?


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Mark Seifter wrote:


I was this close to working the Ottoman Empire into that but I couldn't think of a natural segue.

What, like "that was a real Turkey?"

Thats because you were a Russia-n too much.

But.. if you're Hungary for more punishment, C'mon back....

Spoiler:

A pun is the lowest form of humor... unless you thought of it first...


Atalius wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Right, I was about to get to that. If the enemy has Spellcraft, when you cast your follow up spell he makes a Spellcraft check before the save, so the save isn’t penalized. Ill Omen doesn’t really come into its own as self help until you get multiple rerolls and can quicken it.
Ahh i wasn't aware the spellcraft is made for the followup spell, so your saying an Ill Oman followed by a hex (supernatural ability) would work 100% as it ignores SR correct?

What matters is whether you can get your follow-up effect (whether spell or Hex) after the Ill Omen before the target can get off a Move action or a (semi-)throwaway d20 roll (including Immediate Actions). Casting Ill Omen (including from a Wand) is normally a Standard Action, and most other spells and most Hexes are Standard Actions, so unless you have a Surprise Round advantage and better initiative or cast a Quickened Ill Omen, you need somebody else to cast the Ill Omen (including using a Wand, especially if you have a Familiar that can do it) and then use your follow-up spell or Hex.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Right, I was about to get to that. If the enemy has Spellcraft, when you cast your follow up spell he makes a Spellcraft check before the save, so the save isn’t penalized. Ill Omen doesn’t really come into its own as self help until you get multiple rerolls and can quicken it.
Ahh i wasn't aware the spellcraft is made for the followup spell, so your saying an Ill Oman followed by a hex (supernatural ability) would work 100% as it ignores SR correct?

What matters is whether you can get your follow-up effect (whether spell or Hex) after the Ill Omen before the target can get off a Move action or a (semi-)throwaway d20 roll (including Immediate Actions). Casting Ill Omen (including from a Wand) is normally a Standard Action, and most other spells and most Hexes are Standard Actions, so unless you have a Surprise Round advantage and better initiative or cast a Quickened Ill Omen, you need somebody else to cast the Ill Omen (including using a Wand, especially if you have a Familiar that can do it) and then use your follow-up spell or Hex.

Following up with a spell gives people trained in spellcraft a roll to identify the spell, using up the ill omen effect.

Following up with a hex doesn't give them that chance as the hex is SU and not identifiable with spellcraft.


UnArcaneElection wrote:
Atalius wrote:
Xenocrat wrote:
Right, I was about to get to that. If the enemy has Spellcraft, when you cast your follow up spell he makes a Spellcraft check before the save, so the save isn’t penalized. Ill Omen doesn’t really come into its own as self help until you get multiple rerolls and can quicken it.
Ahh i wasn't aware the spellcraft is made for the followup spell, so your saying an Ill Oman followed by a hex (supernatural ability) would work 100% as it ignores SR correct?

What matters is whether you can get your follow-up effect (whether spell or Hex) after the Ill Omen before the target can get off a Move action or a (semi-)throwaway d20 roll (including Immediate Actions). Casting Ill Omen (including from a Wand) is normally a Standard Action, and most other spells and most Hexes are Standard Actions, so unless you have a Surprise Round advantage and better initiative or cast a Quickened Ill Omen, you need somebody else to cast the Ill Omen (including using a Wand, especially if you have a Familiar that can do it) and then use your follow-up spell or Hex.

Wouldn't the enemy just be able to Free action roll Spellcraft on MY turn as my familiar is using the wand of Ill Oman? Thus the 2D20 roll would be used up there?


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Actually, Ill Omen is even better than I thought -- the target can only get rid of 1 d20 reroll using 1 Move Action, not all of them. So if you are high enough level to force 2 d20 rerolls, the enemy has to eat 2 Move actions to get rid of both of them. Fortunately, their Spellcraft roll to identify Ill Omen resolves before it hits, so you just have to worry about their Spellcraft roll to identify the follow-up spell and whatever Move Actions they can take before the follow-up spell comes. That is why Quickened Ill Omen is good (you can get off the follow-up spell before they can get off a Move Action, and even with metamagic cost reducers, by the time you can Quicken it, you will probably have enough caster levels to force 2 d20 rerolls on them, of which they might be able to eat 1 with their Spellcraft roll to identify the follow-up spell, but not both of them). That is also why it is good to have different people (or you and your UMD-capable Familiar) cast Ill Omen and the follow-up spell, although this can be done at a low enough level (since you don't need Quicken Spell for this) that you wouldn't be forcing more than 1 d20 reroll, so that the target could eat the reroll with their Spellcraft roll -- IF THEY ARE TRAINED IN SPELLCRAFT -- keep in mind that a lot of targets wouldn't be able to use Spellcraft even if they knew that they needed to. If you need to cast an Ill Omen and a follow-up effect on a Spellcraft-capable target, and you aren't high enough level to make it a Quickened Ill Omen (or even if you are, but you also have to worry that they might be making a Spellcraft roll on an ally's spell that happens to be cast on the same Initiative), then the follow-up effect needs to be a Hex instead of a spell.


A big weakness of the familiar using a wand immediately before I follow up with a Misfortune say, would be the issue of getting through Spell Resistance. Its highly unlikely he could penetrate SR with its CL.


^ . . . Which means that as you get up to the level at which you can cast Quicken Spell, you are probably going to need to shift over to using Quicken Spell. Possible alternatives:

  • You have 2 actual spellcasters, 1 for the Ill Omen and 1 for the follow-up spell or Hex, such as if you have 2 Witches, a Witch and any SOL caster, a Witch and a Hexcrafter Magus, or a Dual-Cursed Oracle and a Witch.
  • You equip your UMD-capable Familiar with a Wand of Ill Omen with Piercing Spell applied (against Spell Resistance) or with Persistent Spell applied (against high-Save targets) -- unfortunately, you can't apply both unless metamagic cost reducers apply to Wand creation, so for that you need a Scroll or a custom Staff, but Staves get really expensive even if you make them yourself.
  • YOU cast the Ill Omen (possibly amplified as above), and your UMD-capable Familiar casts the follow-up spell from a Wand or Scroll.
  • Splinter Spell Resistance (best against a low-Fortitude target) -- you could cast this beforehand yourself, but it is quicker if you have a Bloodrager, Magus, or Occultist (or even Eldritch Knight) that has this spell, and then right after they hit (preferably with a full-round attack to give it more chance to stick), cast the Ill Omen and the follow-up spell by any of the methods above.


First issue: using the wand
Ill Omen is psychic and witch only.
I know of no familiar that can cast psychic or witch spells.
Therefore, the familiar must use UMD.

The only familiars with a positive UMD I can think of are improved familiars. The other option is giving the familiar the Skilled Evolution via a feat. Adding enough ranks to make the UMD near automatic means you are high level, and can quicken the spell yourself.

Next issue: effectiveness of a wand
Unless you paid an extreme amount, that wand is CL 1 and forces a single reroll. Against anything that has SR, it will likely fail, since such usually have a fair CL against the wands CL 1. Lastly, spellcraft vs. the next spell. As already mentioned, that can eat up the reroll.

On the other hand, if you can do some form of Imbue with Spell Ability, or us a magic item like the Ring of Spell Storing, then you can improve the CL of the cast.

/cevah


Cevah wrote:

First issue: using the wand

Ill Omen is psychic and witch only.

. . . And Dual-Cursed Oracle (noted because it seems to be noticeably popular). Might be some weird Bloodline or something that gets it also, but not anything as popular as Witch and Dual-Cursed Oracle.

Cevah wrote:

I know of no familiar that can cast psychic or witch spells.

Therefore, the familiar must use UMD.

The only familiars with a positive UMD I can think of are improved familiars. The other option is giving the familiar the Skilled Evolution via a feat. Adding enough ranks to make the UMD near automatic means you are high level, and can quicken the spell yourself.

Evolved Familiar (Skilled (Use Magic Device)) -- actually a pretty good idea if you are going to be doing this a lot . . . .

Cevah wrote:

Next issue: effectiveness of a wand

Unless you paid an extreme amount, that wand is CL 1 and forces a single reroll. Against anything that has SR, it will likely fail, since such usually have a fair CL against the wands CL 1. Lastly, spellcraft vs. the next spell. As already mentioned, that can eat up the reroll.

On the other hand, if you can do some form of Imbue with Spell Ability, or us a magic item like the Ring of Spell Storing, then you can improve the CL of the cast.

Unfortunately, Imbue With Spell Ability only works with Cleric spells (even though it is on the Shaman spell list) of the Abjuration, Divination, and Conjuration (Healing) types. I don't know of any equivalent that would let you use Enchantment spells (to make Ill Omen work) AND that you could snag onto the Witch spell list (or a way to snag Ill Omen onto the Shaman spell list, unless some Spirit or archetype that I missed does this).

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