Is this blind fighter legal?


Advice


For those wiser than me...is the following legal?

The idea behind it is to have an elven warrior holding a two handed blade. The drow is completely blind. So what does he do? Well...

"Your detect magic spell-like ability is now constant. You may use your dancing lights, deeper darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, and levitate spell-like abilities at will."

As far as I can tell, this build would give him the above abilities, along with 30ft blindsense.

RP-wise, he would be a drow follower of Vildeis. He has sacrificed his eyes in exchange for wisdom, and through his god is able to see. This doesn't mean that he is "good" in the usual sense. It is just that he has aligned himself with an empyreal lord instead of the usual demon lords. Most likely due to being driven into exile, and Vildeis being a good source of seeking vengeance against his own people.

Quote:

Race: Drow

Str (16) Dex (16) Con (12) Int (7) Wis (13) Cha (13) 20 point buy
Level 4: Str (17)
Level 8: Str (18)

Spell-Like Abilities (Su): Drow can cast dancing lights, darkness, and faerie fire, once each per day, using their total character level as caster level.

Class: Two Handed Fighter
- Overhand chop until lvl 7
- Backswing level 7+
- Extra damage

Traits

Blind Zeal
Source Divine Anthology pg. 19
Category Religion
Requirement(s) Vildeis
You are blind but trained by followers of Vildeis to sense your surroundings by sound and touch. You need not attempt a skill check to move at full speed. You take a –4 penalty from blindness on only Acrobatics, Ride, Sleight of Hand, and Stealth checks. You gain Blind-Fight as a bonus feat. You lose the benefits of this trait whenever you can see, but regain them if you once again become blind.

Reactionary (+2 initiative)

Feats

Level 1 Trait: Blind Fight

Level 1: Drow Nobility

Level 2: Power Attack

Level 3: Improved Drow Nobility

Level 4: Furious Focus

Level 5: Blinded Blade Style
Prerequisite(s): Blind-Fight, Perception 5 ranks.
Benefit(s): While you are using this style, you gain a number of benefits whenever you are blinded or unable to see (including when you wear a blindfold or close your eyes). Under such circumstances, you do not take any penalties on Strength– or Dexterity-based skill checks due to blindness. In addition, you gain a +4 bonus on hearing- and smell-based Perception checks and gain the scent special ability with a range of 10 feet; if you already have scent, the range of your scent ability increases by 10 feet instead. Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.

Level 6: Improved Blind Fight
Perception 10 ranks, Blind-Fight.
Benefit: Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment. You may still reroll your miss chance percentile roll for total concealment. If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker within 30 feet, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
Special: The Improved Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.

Level 7: Blinded Competence
Prerequisite(s): Blinded Blade Style, Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Perception 10 ranks.
Benefit(s): While you are using Blinded Blade Style and you are blinded or unable to see, you do not need to succeed at Perception checks to pinpoint the location of creatures within reach of your melee weapon, or your unmodified reach if you are not wielding a melee weapon. This ability functions like blindsense, except creatures you cannot see do not gain total concealment against you. Having this feat counts as having 15 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Greater Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Greater Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.

Level 8: Greater Blind Fight
Prerequisites: Perception 15 ranks, Improved Blind-Fight.
Benefit: Your melee attacks ignore the miss chance for less than total concealment, and you treat opponents with total concealment as if they had normal concealment (20% miss chance instead of 50%). You may still reroll a miss chance percentile roll as normal.
If you successfully pinpoint an invisible or hidden attacker, that attacker gets no advantages related to hitting you with ranged attacks, regardless of the range. That is, you don’t lose your Dexterity bonus to Armor Class, and the attacker doesn’t get the usual +2 bonus for being invisible.
Special: The Greater Blind-Fight feat is of no use against a character who is the subject of a blink spell.

Level 9: Blinded Master
Prerequisite(s): Blind-Fight, Blinded Blade Precision (Blinded Competence?), Blinded Blade Style, Greater Blind-Fight, Improved Blind-Fight, Perception 15 ranks.
Benefit(s): While you are using Blinded Blade Style and you are blinded or unable to see, your ability to pinpoint creatures’ locations using Blinded Competence improves to function like blindsight rather than blindsense, and the range increases to 30 feet. In addition, you add half your character level to the DCs of Bluff checks to feint you in combat.

Level 10: Weapon Focus

Level 11: Greater Drow Nobility (Your detect magic spell-like ability is now constant. You may use your dancing lights, deeper darkness, faerie fire, feather fall, and levitate spell-like abilities at will.)

Level 12: Penetrating Strike

Level 13: Noble Spell Resistance (Your spell resistance is equal to 11 + your character level.)

Grand Lodge

If you're going for PFS-legal, no - because of the drow race and its racial feats.

Otherwise, it looks pretty legit and is a very cool concept.


Man, those are some wonky feats. Blinded Competence requires 10 ranks in Perception, but also requires a feat that makes you count as having 10 ranks in Perception. Then Blinded Master requires 15 ranks in Perception, but also requires a feat that makes you count as having 15 ranks in Perception. What's the point of even having the Perception rank pre-req when another pre-req makes the Perception pre-req irrelevant?


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I remember seeing someone who used the Unarmed Fighter Fighter archetype (which grants a style feat at 1st level without meeting prereqs) to get Blinded Blade Style at level 1, Improved Blind Fight at 2nd, Blinded Competence at 3rd, Greater Blind Fight at 4th and Blinded Master by 5th. It went human for the bonus feat to pick up Power Attack and then transitioned into a more standard 2-hander melee build after that.

Would let you get the concept online much much quicker, though without the drow based flair.


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I'm not sure I'm the first person to post this, but I did post a 2-level start that lets you get blind-fighting off the ground ASAP.

You want to be human for the extra feat, and take Blinded Zeal as a trait. So your feat progression is:

1) Unarmed Fighter: Blinded Blade Style (granted by the archetype), Blind Fight (from the trait), Improved Blind Fight (your normal level 1 feat), and Blinded Competence (with your human bonus feat).
2) Bonus Combat Feat from Fighter: Greater Blind Fight
3) 3rd Level Feat (you can take any class from here) Blind Master.

So with a grand total of 7 feats through 3 levels, you have gotten by about as many limitations as you can for a completely blind character. You don't have a lot else to show for your class features yet though. You could also do Master of Many styles at level 1 then Fighter at level 2 (for the bonus feat), but then you're down a BAB which may or may not matter depending on where you want to go from there.


Wow. That's awesome. I really like that. You get in 3 levels what I thought it took 9 to reach. So, looking at it...

Race Drow
With voice in the darkness alternate racial. Because weapon familiarity doesn't really do anything for this build.

Class Unarmed Fighter (lvls 1-2) Enlightened Bloodrager (lvls 3+)
Weapon: Sansetsukon (1d10, 19-20 crit, blocking, disarm, monk)

Feats
Lvl 1 Trait: Blind Fight
Lvl 1 Class: Blinded Blade Style
Lvl 1 Class: Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 1: Improved Blind Fight
Lvl 2 Class: Greater Blind Fight
Lvl 3: Blinded Master
Lvl 5: Power Attack
Lvl 7: Drow Nobility
Lvl 9: Improved Drow Nobility
Lvl 11: Greater Drow Nobility
Lvl 13: Noble Spell Resistance

I've got to say, that I like this. Not sure what the best class to change into would be, but bloodrager would give +10ft movement, medium armor, bloodrage (+4 Str/+4Con/+2 Will, very needed for the drow), and by lvl 6 wouldn't get the -2 AC when bloodraging. Plus some extra spells. And at lvl6 also gets blur while bloodraging.

And finally...it makes use of the drow's +2 Cha. Making that 13 worth it for more than the noble spell resistance.

Str (16) Dex (16) Con (12) Int (7) Wis (13) Cha (13) 20 point buy
Level 4: Str (17)
Level 8: Str (18)
Level 12: Cha (14) Just in time to get lvl 4 spells
Level 16: Wis (14) +1 will/perception
Level 20: Int (8) +1 skill point per level


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Grumbaki wrote:


Str (16) Dex (16) Con (12) Int (7) Wis (13) Cha (13) 20 point buy
Level 4: Str (17)
Level 8: Str (18)
Level 12: Cha (14) Just in time to get lvl 4 spells
Level 16: Wis (14) +1 will/perception
Level 20: Int (8) +1 skill point per level

It'd be more efficient to go with 12 Wisdom, 14 Charisma, and put the remaining points into strength. You can always take Iron Will if you're worried about the will save, but bolstering your strength a bit more is definitely the most valuable approach here.

In any case, you don't even need that much charisma, since a Headband of Alluring Charisma can be used to meet the requirement to cast the spells. The 14 is still useful, especially if you're worried about being separated from your equipment, but not strictly needed.

You also might consider swapping the 20th level advancement from Intelligence to Strength. While it might seem strange to end on an odd number (21 strength before other bonuses) the maximum possible inherent bonus is +5 so you can make use of an odd number.

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure I'm the first person to post this, but I did post a 2-level start that lets you get blind-fighting off the ground ASAP.

You want to be human for the extra feat, and take Blinded Zeal as a trait. So your feat progression is:

1) Unarmed Fighter: Blinded Blade Style (granted by the archetype), Blind Fight (from the trait), Improved Blind Fight (your normal level 1 feat), and Blinded Competence (with your human bonus feat).
2) Bonus Combat Feat from Fighter: Greater Blind Fight
3) 3rd Level Feat (you can take any class from here) Blind Master.

So with a grand total of 7 feats through 3 levels, you have gotten by about as many limitations as you can for a completely blind character. You don't have a lot else to show for your class features yet though. You could also do Master of Many styles at level 1 then Fighter at level 2 (for the bonus feat), but then you're down a BAB which may or may not matter depending on where you want to go from there.

Where is the Blinded Zeal Trait from? But i do like where this build is going very much.


Sorry, it was Blind Zeal not blinded. Grants Blind Fight as a bonus feat, makes it easier to be blind, but you're permanently blind.


I don't really see the value in Blind Fight chain for this, as once you have Blinded Master you have Blindsight.
About the only benefit seems to be avoiding Flat Foot and AC penalty vs Invisible Ranged Attackers outside 30'. Meh.
Even the base Blindfight is superfluous, the lasting benefit of Trait is really full-speed movement + negating penalty to Perception.

It seems with Human you can have Blinded Master already by 1st level, if not Human then by 2nd level.
In latter case I suppose taking Improved Blindfight at 1st and Blinded Master at 2nd might be attractive,
and you can re-train out of Improved Blindfight once you have 4 Fighter levels (or via other retraining mechanics).
(Style Master Monk is alternative to Unarmed Fighter for Bonus Feats + bypassing Blinded Blade pre-req although no built-in retraining)


Reminder that Blind Zeal is a religious trait that requires you to worship an empyreal lord. Talk to your GM before attempting this.


Well, for me it's mostly for the drow abilities.

Lvl 11: Can drop deeper darkness at will. Guess who isn't effected by it? That's right.

Quote:
This spell functions as darkness, except that objects radiate darkness in a 60-foot radius and the light level is lowered by two steps. Bright light becomes dim light and normal light becomes darkness. Areas of dim light and darkness become supernaturally dark. This functions like darkness, but even creatures with darkvision cannot see within the spell’s confines.

Enemies want to fight you? Drop it. Don't laugh because then they can aim for the sound. Silently starting cutting them down. Extra points if there is only one way out and you box them in.

Though most importantly. It lets you mechanically be a blind kungfu master (more or less). And that's pretty cool.


Grumbaki wrote:
Well, for me it's mostly for the drow abilities.

I'm assuming you are responding to my post. I don't believe Blind-Fight is a pre-req for Drow Feats, so don't see connection.

Blindfight doesn't directly add anything re: your Deeper Darkness strategy, other than benefit re: ranged attack defence.
FYI 'Laughing' is not necessary to make non-visual Perception check to pin-point somebody within Deeper Darkness (though it may lower DC).


Blind Fight is a prereq for the style path feats.


I thought Unarmed Fighter or MoMS bypass pre-reqs.


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Unarmed Fighter and (post-errata) MoMS only ignore pre-reqs for the first style feats, not for any of the later feats in the style path.


Ah thanks, I forgot the FAQ and thought he was talking about some Drow Feat I had missed.
I was just struck by how the main benefits of Blind-Fight and Blinded Style are nearly superfluous combined together...
I guess if you can live with ~5% Miss Chance from GBF (and/or can find other way to lower Miss Chance)
you could consider retraining out of the full Style Chain after Level 15 as far as core combat function is concerned.


Grumbaki wrote:

Wow. That's awesome. I really like that. You get in 3 levels what I thought it took 9 to reach. So, looking at it...

Race Drow
With voice in the darkness alternate racial. Because weapon familiarity doesn't really do anything for this build.

Class Unarmed Fighter (lvls 1-2) Enlightened Bloodrager (lvls 3+)
Weapon: Sansetsukon (1d10, 19-20 crit, blocking, disarm, monk)

Feats
Lvl 1 Trait: Blind Fight
Lvl 1 Class: Blinded Blade Style
Lvl 1 Class: Improved Unarmed Strike
Lvl 1: Improved Blind Fight
Lvl 2 Class: Greater Blind Fight
Lvl 3: Blinded Master
Lvl 5: Power Attack
Lvl 7: Drow Nobility
Lvl 9: Improved Drow Nobility
Lvl 11: Greater Drow Nobility
Lvl 13: Noble Spell Resistance

I've got to say, that I like this. Not sure what the best class to change into would be, but bloodrager would give +10ft movement, medium armor, bloodrage (+4 Str/+4Con/+2 Will, very needed for the drow), and by lvl 6 wouldn't get the -2 AC when bloodraging. Plus some extra spells. And at lvl6 also gets blur while bloodraging.

And finally...it makes use of the drow's +2 Cha. Making that 13 worth it for more than the noble spell resistance.

Str (16) Dex (16) Con (12) Int (7) Wis (13) Cha (13) 20 point buy
Level 4: Str (17)
Level 8: Str (18)
Level 12: Cha (14) Just in time to get lvl 4 spells
Level 16: Wis (14) +1 will/perception
Level 20: Int (8) +1 skill point per level

You need blinded competence to qualify for feats that need 15 ranks of perception (greater blind fight, blinded master).


Quandary wrote:
I don't really see the value in Blind Fight chain for this, as once you have Blinded Master you have Blindsight.

Blinded Master has Greater Blind Fight as a prerequisite, Blinded Competence has Improved Blind Fight as a prerequisite, and Blinded Blade Style has Blind Fight as a prerequisite. So there's no way to get Blinded Master without the whole Blind Fight chain.

Sovereign Court

Just have to point out, that the style feats only work in combat after you activate them with a swift action. You cannot just walk around every day with their benefits active. SO yes during combat after your first turn you have blindsight, but before that you don't. It's why with my blind fighting character I went with the monk archetype that was all about self hurt (cannot remember the name at the moment) which has an option at lvl 4 to stitch your eyes shut and gain constant blind sense.


Blind Zeal means you can move around while blind without blindsight without problems. You're still bad at certain skills, but you know from the onset that you aren't going to be able to do some things well by virtue of choosing to play a blind character.

If you're really concerned that the GM is going to be a stickler about "not falling into pits because you can't see them" and the like, you can spend a feat on Aural Insight, I guess.


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I would think the Nightmare Fist chain would work well with this build; especially if you go the unarmed fighter or monk of many styles route.

Quote:

Nightmare Fist (Combat)

You are even more deadly in magical darkness.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Intimidate 1 rank, ability to create magical darkness.
Benefit: While fighting within an area of magical darkness, you gain a +2 bonus on damage rolls with unarmed strikes, or a +4 bonus against opponents that are shaken, frightened, or panicked. You also gain a +2 morale bonus on Acrobatics and Intimidate checks.
Nightmare Striker (Combat)
Your faerie fire not only illuminates your foes, but it also shows you their weaknesses.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Nightmare Fist, Nightmare Weaver, Stunning Fist, Heal 5 ranks, ability to cast faerie fire.
Benefit: While a faerie fire you have cast (not one cast from a spell completion or spell trigger item) outlines an opponent, the DC for that opponent to resist your Stunning Fist attempts increases by +2. If you hit an opponent with a Stunning Fist attempt, and that opponent fails her saving throw, you can render the target shaken for 1d2 rounds plus 1 round for every 5 by which the opponent failed her save.
Nightmare Weaver (Combat)
You can use your ability to create magical darkness to terrorize enemies.

Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Nightmare Fist, Intimidate 2 ranks, ability to cast darkness.
Benefit: By spending a full-round action to cast darkness, you can also make Intimidate checks to demoralize all foes in the spell's initial area.
Special: This feat counts as Dazzling Display for purposes of qualifying for Deadly Stroke and Shatter Defenses.


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I think it's missing something, at least at lower levels. Neither Blind Fighting nor Blinded Zeal seem to help you find your opponents. When you are trying to find which square your opponent is in, you need to make a DC 20 Perception Check, and neither help with that.

I've had a fight-while-blind PFS character. She was a Half Orc with the Keen Scent and Blindfighting feats. The Scent Ability lets you detect opponents within 30' and pinpoint location within 5'. It lets you determine the direction of your opponent as a Move Action. To my experience of PFS games, we had enough opponents turn Invisible or pull out Deeper Darkness that it was useful. But I was frustrated in what I really wanted to do: whip out my Eversmoking Bottle, Blinding everybody around me as I preyed on them. Since most PFS Players don't plan ahead for contingencies like being Blinded, they tended to resent the tactic.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I think it's missing something, at least at lower levels. Neither Blind Fighting nor Blinded Zeal seem to help you find your opponents. When you are trying to find which square your opponent is in, you need to make a DC 20 Perception Check, and neither help with that.

Well, in what I posted you have Blinded Competence at level 1, which gives you blindsense within your melee or natural reach. So grab a double-chained kama and babysit the wizard if the GM doesn't let the players call out where enemies are.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure I'm the first person to post this, but I did post a 2-level start that lets you get blind-fighting off the ground ASAP.

You want to be human for the extra feat, and take Blinded Zeal as a trait. So your feat progression is:

1) Unarmed Fighter: Blinded Blade Style (granted by the archetype), Blind Fight (from the trait), Improved Blind Fight (your normal level 1 feat), and Blinded Competence (with your human bonus feat).

I don't think that's going to work. Only the class-level bonus feat can ignore prerequisites.

Grand Lodge

Slim Jim wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure I'm the first person to post this, but I did post a 2-level start that lets you get blind-fighting off the ground ASAP.

You want to be human for the extra feat, and take Blinded Zeal as a trait. So your feat progression is:

1) Unarmed Fighter: Blinded Blade Style (granted by the archetype), Blind Fight (from the trait), Improved Blind Fight (your normal level 1 feat), and Blinded Competence (with your human bonus feat).

I don't think that's going to work. Only the class-level bonus feat can ignore prerequisites.

What pre-requisite is he ignoring? Blinded Blade Style lets him ignore the perception rank prerequisites for both Improved Blind Fight and Blinded Competence.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
I think it's missing something, at least at lower levels. Neither Blind Fighting nor Blinded Zeal seem to help you find your opponents. When you are trying to find which square your opponent is in, you need to make a DC 20 Perception Check, and neither help with that.
Well, in what I posted you have Blinded Competence at level 1, which gives you blindsense within your melee or natural reach. So grab a double-chained kama and babysit the wizard if the GM doesn't let the players call out where enemies are.

Blindsense. That'll do it. I missed that part.


Slim Jim wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm not sure I'm the first person to post this, but I did post a 2-level start that lets you get blind-fighting off the ground ASAP.

You want to be human for the extra feat, and take Blinded Zeal as a trait. So your feat progression is:

1) Unarmed Fighter: Blinded Blade Style (granted by the archetype), Blind Fight (from the trait), Improved Blind Fight (your normal level 1 feat), and Blinded Competence (with your human bonus feat).

I don't think that's going to work. Only the class-level bonus feat can ignore prerequisites.

So we have Blind Fight (from the trait) and Blinded Blade Style from the class feature as a given, right?

Blinded Blade Style says:

Quote:
Having this feat counts as having 10 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Improved Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Improved Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.

So now we can take Improved Blind-Fight, because we count as having 10 perception for these purposes, and since Blinded Competence has Improved Blind Fight as a prerequisite we count as having 10 perception for that feat's prerequisite as well.

Blinded Competence says:

Quote:
Having this feat counts as having 15 ranks in Perception for the purpose of satisfying the prerequisites of the Greater Blind-Fight feat, as well as any feat that lists Greater Blind-Fight as a prerequisite.

Which lets us take the last two feats in the specified order.

Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Blindsense. That'll do it. I missed that part.

This is kind of why I like the Unarmed Fighter entry better than the MOMS one, since it gives you proficiency in some reach weapons (and the visual of a blind guy just swinging around a chain with a sharp thing at the end is kind of amusing) and you only have Blindsense within your melee reach (and you have IUS so you don't care about the donut.)

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