How to Fight Evil Outsiders as Level 7 PCs?


Advice


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My party and I are playing an Adventure Path (

name of adventure path:
Curse of the Crimson Throne
) and we have stumbled upon a CR9 daemon with an SR of 20. We're pretty stumped on how to handle it, and the GM has graciously allowed us to take a week to figure out a new battle plan, because our usual plan of tossing fireballs and alchemist's fire didn't work so hot.

This is our party composition (we are all level 7):

Human Cleric of Sarenrae (Good, Glory)
Human Unchained Rogue
Ursine (third-party race) Barbarian
Gnome Wizard
Human Witch

I've read up a bit on outsiders and it seems normally the solution involves doing summoning stuff, but our wizard refuses to do any conjuration because of his beef with one of the local magic schools (and it's an opposition school for him), so that's not a solution. And I've already attempted Holy Smite and it failed because of the SR. And a lot of my usual spells have Will saves, and this dude's will save is particularly high.

So what are some strategies we could employ? One thing going for us is that the rogue has 2 silver daggers, and the witch has one more cast of dimension door we can just leave. But due to the circumstances, we want to try and do as much damage as possible.


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A wizard banning conjuration causing major problems? I'm shook.
Anyways, it seems like you have an extremely magic-focused party. I would suggest buffing up your barb and going to town but I don't know how it's built. In any case, try focusing non SR spells (which are sadly mostly conjuration spells).

PD


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Try buffing the Barb and Rogue and let them go to town on it. Also, Witch hexes are SU and thus not subject to SR.


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the solution is barbarian


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Cleric: Good domain 2nd level spell align weapon, 3rd level spell magic circle against evil; Glory domain 2nd level spell bless weapon

Witch: curse of magic negation, which allows:

Quote:
A negated spellcaster has his ability to manipulate magical energies disrupted. He gains Spell Resistance equal to 10 plus twice the highest spell level he can cast. This Spell Resistance cannot be voluntarily lowered. In addition, anytime he casts a spell, he must make a caster level check (1d20 + caster level) against this Spell Resistance. On a successful check, the spell is completed and the spellcaster’s Spell Resistance is removed until the start of his next turn. Failure indicates he failed to muster up enough magical energy to cast the spell, but the spell is not lost and may be attempted again. Any feats or abilities that aid in bypassing Spell Resistance help with this check.

... this allows you to potentially shut down its teleport without...

Wizard: ... dimensional anchor (which, really, if your wizard has a beef with conjurers, he should have anyway).

So basic plan: dimensional anchor and, if that doesn't work, curse of magic negation. Congratulations, he's now trapped nearby (and may be even more resistant to magic). While that's happening, you pop the cleric's favored blessings on the barbarian and rogue, encourage the barbarian to charge it directly, and the rogue to charge to the side of it, and then tumble a flank.

Question: how is your group doing on ranged attacks? It can fly, but you may be able to ground it by grappling or similar (called shots are a second option).

If that's not an option, once it's dimensionally anchored (or, less ideally, negation'd), the witch can drop black tentacles on it and wait. The cleric buffs everyone's stuff, and you pepper it with arrows.

Of course, if your gnome has conjuration foil (and he should), that teleport isn't a problem - just keep the gnome near the demon.

If the witch can pierce it's SR on a CL check of 13 on the d20 roll, you could lay down a rage spell to ensure it doesn't teleport away. If you can do it twice, pugwampi's grace is fabulous, and irregular size helps with de-powering it. Also glitterdust that puppy (it will be so irate! Hee!)

Weirder witch suggestions:

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/i/imbue-with-addiction
> get a bargaining chip

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/e/excruciating-deformation
> weaken it

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-idiocy
> make it dumb!

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/psychic-leech
> fatigue it and boost yourself

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/b/blindness-deafness
> this is pretty legit, yo

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/t/touch-of-blindness
> lower power version of the above (darkvision doesn't pierce supernatural darkness)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/m/mudball
> NO SR ranged attack; again NO SR (possible blindness)

http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/c/command
> halt command for great damage

Also the wizard:
bestow curse
enervation
slow
haste (use on allies only! ;D)
sheet lightning (DAZE THE DUDE)
burdened thoughts (to handle 'dat flight)
stricken heart (stagger the thing)
sonic scream (sonic damage!)
stone call (place carefully!)
ray of sickening
> anything it shares with the witch above

Anything you can use to daze it or otherwise temporarily halt it would be ideal - for the rogue and the barbarian to slam into it with the fury of a thousand cuts (and/or other damage dealing style of choice).

I'm pretty tired, though, and my ideas might not be the best, at present, so think carefully before embracing anything I may or may not have just said. Also, I didn't get a chance to look through other non-domain class features - an answer might be in there.

Hope that helps! (At least a little!)


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Is he letting you repick spells?

Otherwise, what prepared spells do you all currently have left available to you?

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

That daemon is kinda tough if your party isn't prepared for it. My party ran screaming from it when I ran it for them. Their big issue was getting through its DR. The paladin even had a Smite Evil left for the day, but he forgot about it.


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Hire some mercenary archers (see the zen archer threads or similar stuff) and get them enough arrows to skip the DR. :)

Silver Crusade

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Dweomer essenz helps with sr.
Otherwise buffing and align weapon.


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Also, don't clerics get a spell that let weapons count as holy for overcoming evil DR?

You can prep that too, I think.


Give your rogue a glibness effect and get him to tell the daemon, "Your name is Toot-toot McBumbersnazzle. You're a traveling banjo minstrel, with a song in your heart, and funny tattoos on your head."

THIS WILL TOTALLY WORK.

>.>

While I'm here:

Do you like Gravity Falls (choose one):
- Yes
- Definitely*
- ABSOLUTELY!!!**

(I rigged it! >:D)

* (I dunno which language, but VALID)
** (talk about SUGAR RUSH; EDIT: to be clear, yes, it's just a sugar-rush)

Dark Archive

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Also use of silver/mithral weapons :p That AP tries early on really to clue you on "Silver weapons are nice!" before that daemon encounter. Did your party already get rid of the mithral rapier from one of earlier encounters?


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Hey everyone! I'm pleasantly surprised by the number of responses I got. You're all very helpful! It's gonna take me a while to write all these replies haha.

One thing I forgot to mention is that the daemon can at-will dispel magic. Our witch did cast blindness, but then the daemon just dispelled it. But I guess if we keep casting buffs then it'll buy us time if he keeps trying to dispel.

Potato disciple wrote:
A wizard banning conjuration causing major problems? I'm shook.

Yeah lol. It's kind of annoying, but he roleplays his character more consistently than any of us and he tosses good fireballs so we're fine with it. It just means that the witch and I need to pick up the slack on conjuration. :X

Tacticslion wrote:
Question: how is your group doing on ranged attacks? It can fly, but you may be able to ground it by grappling or similar (called shots are a second option).

Our ranged options are... poor. Our witch has been investing in throwing feats for their potions, and our barbarian has a composite longbow that only he can use. That's about it.

Coizor wrote:

Is he letting you repick spells?

Otherwise, what prepared spells do you all currently have left available to you?

No he's not letting us repick spells, but I do have some spell slots open for the day and I will be given time to fill them. This is what I have:

Level 1: Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Obscuring Mist, Shield of Faith (3 blanks)
Level 2: Bless Weapon, Grace, Bear's Endurance (3 blanks)
Level 3: Magic Circle against Evil, Damnation, Remove Disease, Prayer, Searing Light
Level 4: Holy Smite, Blessing of Fervor, Spiritual Ally (1 blank)

I also have two wands: Cure Light Wounds (40) and Spiritual Weapon (43). I don't know off-hand what the other spellcasters have, but I do know that the wizard doesn't have any open slots.

Quote:
That daemon is kinda tough if your party isn't prepared for it. My party ran screaming from it when I ran it for them.

Adventure Path Details:
Yeah, after the flies and the disease and the massive amounts of damage, we just shut the doors and ran. But in the process we ran into the nice nosferatu guy, who also happened to have my long lost best friend NPC as his lab assistant, and they kinda guilted us into at least trying to defeat the daemon and whatever is beyond him. So we're gonna do our best, until it's abundantly clear we can't win, in which case we'll just Dimension Door and skedaddle.
CorvusMask wrote:
Did your party already get rid of the mithral rapier from one of earlier encounters?

Uh, we never found one! I talked to the GM and apparently we had missed it.

Adventure Path Details:
He's assuming you're talking about one of Vencarlo's rapiers. The GM had changed it so that our rogue and Grau were actually childhood friends. So at some point he and Grau got drunk at a tavern and then went to Vencarlo's academy to investigate (and also as a joke). Grau had heavily suggested "Hey, let's take some of his swords!" and the rogue said, "No, I don't want to steal from Vencarlo." Yes, our rogue actually turned down an opportunity to steal something lol

Anyway, thanks everyone! I'm showing this thread to the rest of my party and we're gonna see what we can do. We're all pretty nervous because we know there's one more encounter after this and the GM says it's probably even harder than this guy, so... yikes!


doctorcello wrote:

Level 1: Protection from Evil, Sanctuary, Obscuring Mist, Shield of Faith (3 blanks)

Level 2: Bless Weapon, Grace, Bear's Endurance (3 blanks)
Level 3: Magic Circle against Evil, Damnation, Remove Disease, Prayer, Searing Light
Level 4: Holy Smite, Blessing of Fervor, Spiritual Ally (1 blank)

Okay, this right here could be your saving grace, especially the bless weapon spell - this basically allows you to bypass DR, meaning you can murderize the heck out of the thing.

Spiritual ally can really help, too.

Note that, though it can dispel at will, it has no particular way to know anything is magically altered (like your bless weapon), so it probably won't waste a valuable action trying to do that.

You have a slot open, so curse of magic negation is still on the table, for you. I'd suggested this for the gnome (considering he's an anti-conjurer), but conjuration foil is actually ideal for your witch to have, as well, and it's within her ability. If she doesn't or can't have that spell for some reason, I recommend you attempt a 'magic negation against the thing: it's a will save, but no SR, so, depending on your DCs (it'll be DC 14+your modifier v. a save of +12; that means it'll need to roll a dice value of 2+your modifier to succeed), you might have a decent chance... if the witch uses her debuffs, first (like evil eye, cackle, and whatnot, presupposing she has debuffs).

However, I've also a more general plan for you. It's slightly meta, but no real spoilers... exactly...

... but just in case, avoid if you want no meta:
... run past the freak, taunting it and making rude and suggestive remarks about how many mortals it sired when its souls still lived and how much it helped fecundity and life throughout the multiverse or something. Also threats about painfully killing it. Alt: have someone actually good at this do so.

Either way... run right past it, making sure that it think you've got a plan, and leading it through the doors to the area you haven't seen yet. Then hide - preferably by becoming invisible, or something, but it doesn't much matter.

Either way, once there, you hide (or otherwise make yourself the lesser threat) and let some threats... sort themselves out, before you swoop in for an "easier" (though definitively not easy) victory.

1) My information is based on the old 3.5 stuff, so bear in mind it might not be perfectly accurate to the modern version.

2) Talk to your GM; the meta-information I gave lacks spoilers, but does presuppose a bit of understanding of the thing and/or tactical thinking that may or may not be in keeping with your characters' perspsectives and natures. I am not encouraging you to cheat, but giving a possible idea as a fellow player.

As for why your characters might enact such a plan, while you don't know the specifics of the thing, you do know that it's a pretty big threat and that there are some elements that are opposed; you can see the other jars, and get a general sense of "pattern recognition" from them. Extrapolating, it could lead to you following said plan.

Alternatively, and this is radical enough that I don't know if you'd want to try or even consider such, there's always the possibility of... diplomacy. Now, bear in mind, such a thing might not work, or it might not work like you want or expect, but there is potential there, and it could lead to you getting a permanent or temporary ally, or even leading to an eventual fiendish redemption, unlikely as that might actually be.

One nice thing is that, conjuration foil aside, everything else you've got/that I've mentioned is still going to be (potentially) pretty useful.


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Tacticslion wrote:
Note that, though it can dispel at will, it has no particular way to know anything is magically altered (like your bless weapon), so it probably won't waste a valuable action trying to do that.

Oh, good to know!

For the spells, I imagine all that stuff is too late, but the wizard and witch will probably try to learn those spells next time. The GM says we're gonna be facing many more outsiders in upcoming adventures, so we ought to prepare for those encounters.

I'm not sure about that plan, but...:
It wouldn't be too out of the ordinary to try that? We've tried stupider and succeeded. And we know that the daemon isn't interested in just serving the cultists because after we closed the door it sounded like he was eating one of them.
That said it sounds like a really scary strat that could backfire,
so I think we're gonna play it safe and try to fight it unless we can come up with a good bluff.

And it's funny you mention Diplomacy--the wizard keeps suggesting it lol. But the rest of us are much less keen on doing any sort of compromising with daemons, so there you go.

Anyways, thank you so much for your advice. It sounds like I'm going to do a lot of pre-buffing and healing!


Heh.

If you want me to try to persuade you as to why diplomacy (and/or the bluff*) would be a suggestion that your cleric might suddenly reach for, I could try to convince you (and I have several possible points about why your character, in specific, might be down with this idea, even little as I know about him/her)... though, you know, it might be better to buff as if you were about to fight with the thing anyway.

That said, do what is in your nature and expectations to do. And enjoy the ride!

And, at seventh level, get to be good friends with a druid, for those sweet, sweet (and, more importantly, comparatively very inexpensive) reincarnate spells...

EDIT: forgot what I was going to say: over-all, I just hope I helped! I can't guess how this will turn out, but you may well have the keys to victory... can't guarantee they're what I gave you, but it seeeeeeeeeeeeeeemmmssssss kind of sound from my kind of over-tired, slightly sleep-deprived view. XD

So... hope it helps!

* Or perhaps even a bluff... of diplomacy! (That is bluffing like it were a diplomacy.)


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So the Witch has tried Slumber right?

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