Drug Using Paladin of Papa Asmodeus


Rules Questions


This isnt some sketchy grey paladin no this is a straight up core paladin who coats his blade in stuff like opium and worships Asmodeus.

You start by picking up the Pact Servant trait which lets you treat Papa as lawful neutral for worshiping. So now he is no worse than Abadar. Then you just buy some opium. It isn't a poison since poison immunity doesn't protect against them so no code of conduct issues there. What if anything causes this to break down and make the paladin fall?

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Your GM disallowing it?

I’d say using a drug as poison would fall under “don’t use poison” (I don’t think there’s anything stating that drugs aren’t poisons for that matter).

Also the Pact servant trait is a regional trait for a specific culture and heretical religion, just FYI.


Well you have two issues here. First Asmodeus as you patron deity will be difficult to pull as his interests run contrary in some cases to the paladin code. You can think of there being two different codes that contradict, you would need to be more careful than normal. Doable though. Second opium is not a poison, but it would fall under the same aegis as the poison really as it is completely dishonorable as poison. In the same way no paladin would cover their weapon in s*$# to infect their enemies with filth fever.


Drugs are not poisons. Where are they called out as poisons?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

The fact that they function like poisons and pretty much are poisons (just depends on the dosage), where is it called out that drugs aren’t poisons?

A good example is Wolfsbane, it’s poison, unless you’re trying to stave off Lycanthropy, then it’s not.


Drugs are a separate class of alchemical items and are not mechanically poisons. They don't function like poison they function as part of a disease of addiction. Asking where they are said to not be poisons is like asking where are scrolls called out as not poisons or where is alchemist fire called out as not a poison.

The paladin code prohibits dishonorable conduct but never defines it. Making drugs dishonorable is just GM Fiat. Heck you could say using weapons better than your opponent is dishonorable just as easily.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I don't think Asmodeus sponsors paladins. There was an option to do this early on in PF IIRC (or maybe when they were writing for 3.5?) but it got retconned, and ever since people at Paizo have insisted that there are no Asmodean paladins.


Wolfsbane is a poison. The item says it is a poison. It is an ingested poison. Doesn't matter what you use it for. I am not getting what you are saying about lycanthropy or how it relates.


i would say work with your dm about making a code of conduct based on asmodeus, specific trumps general so the god code would over right the normal paladin code in the event of a conflict

Silver Crusade

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Halek wrote:
Wolfsbane is a poison. The item says it is a poison. It is an ingested poison. Doesn't matter what you use it for. I am not getting what you are saying about lycanthropy or how it relates.

Wolfsbane is a poison unless you’re using it to treat Lycanthropy, then it’s a cure, not poison. Yes it could still kill you but that applies to any medicine/drug/poison. What makes it one thing and not the other is the dosage and how you use it.


This reminds me of the good ole wolfsbane/lycanthropy thread from a bit ago.

In fact I was the guy who mentioned half of this "build" (the drugs part) to show how clownshoes a literal parsing of the code rules are.

Lets just get this nonsense out of the way.

1) I'm fairly certain Pact Servant got dev input somewhere that it wasn't meant to give Asmodean Paladins but I don't recall the source.

2) In a literal parsing of the paladin rules, drugs are not poisons and technically aren't a fall condition for their use.

2a) While technically true, unless you happen to be playing with a GM who runs entirely off programming logic, no one is going to buy that since the difference between "I sneak into the baron's room and slip manticore spittle into his food to kill/disadvantage him" and "I sneak into the baron's room and slip opium into his food to kill/disadvantage him" are virtually nill on the scale of "dishonorable behavior."

The same applies to slathering spider venom on your sword vs opium.

So yeah, hope you have a GM who runs on c++. Otherwise expect a hearty laugh/confused stare/death glare before he asks you what your real build is.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Tarik Blackhands wrote:
So yeah, hope you have a GM who runs on c++.

Heh.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Basic principle: If you all you have to argue for the righteousness of a course of action are legalistic rules minutiae and lexical hair-splitting...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Tableflip McRagequit wrote:

Basic principle: If you have to argue for the righteousness of a course of action using only legalistic rules minutiae and lexical hair-splitting...

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

"But that's what Asmodeus would do! I'm just playing my character!"


Ok so no actual rules conflicts just a massive pile of rp concerns and some people would houserule it to work differently.

Any drugs besides opium that are injury drugs?


2 people marked this as a favorite.
Halek wrote:
Ok so no actual rules conflicts...

Paladin Rule: "While she may adventure with good or neutral allies, a paladin avoids working with evil characters or with anyone who consistently offends her moral code. Under exceptional circumstances, a paladin can ally with evil associates, but only to defeat what she believes to be a greater evil."

Are you saying that you think that "I worship and support the goals of the greatest lawful evil deity there is" does not conflict with this rule?


Funny thing you mention rules.

Here's the paladin code section of note.

"Additionally, a paladin’s code requires that she respect legitimate authority, act with honor (not lying, not cheating, not using poison, and so forth)..."

I bolded the fun bit. "Honor" is not a game term and neither is "And so forth" therefore you're trapped in a lovely zone of GM interpretation because "And so forth" shows that the list of various dishonorable acts is not an exhaustive one and as such the GM is able to tack on whatever the hell he wants onto that list by gesturing toward the "and so forth"

Healing yourself in combat? Can be marked as dishonorable via that clause. As can using drugs, using projectile weapons, not holding the door open for women, and wearing pants. That's the fun part about an open-ended non-exhaustive list!

Unfair and arbitrary you say? Hey, play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

What is expected of followers of Asmodeus?

Asmodeus believes that the strong should rightfully govern the weak, who in turn owe their masters unwavering obedience. He loves negotiations and contracts, especially those that give one of the parties a distinct, hidden advantage over the other.

His concerns are tyranny, slavery, pride, and contracts, and he is not against these things.

He is a master of trickery and lies. Basically he is against everything that the Paladin code stands for, and what is described in the paladin's description.

You may think that you can give him lip service, and keep your paladin powers, but that may not be true.

Curse of the Crimson Throne Player's Guide wrote:
The Prince of Hell preaches strict discipline and unwavering devotion from his worshipers; the strong should rule the weak. The Prince of Darkness expects flattery from his followers, appreciating it for what it is, and delights in deals and contracts that secretly favor one party over another.[2] Followers of the Prince of Darkness often include nobles and bureaucrats, especially those participating in the slave trade and in those nations where his worship is openly accepted.[17]

If the GM is using the other book(cant recall the name) that goes into detail about what specific evil deities expect then Asmodeus would not grant powers to the paladin.

So basically if the GM is not using all the source material and you are only giving lip service then sure it can work, but if you the GM is using all current source material, and/or you actually work to further Asmodeus's goals then you will lose your powers.


So, you're question is "What if anything causes this to break down and make the paladin fall?"

Ignoring the fact that making a paladin of Asmodeus, itself, will make a paladin fall. As was explained, even with the trait that lets you treat him as LN, as a paladin, you further the goals and morals of your god. Anything you do to further his goals or morals will cause you to fall.

So, you want to know what happens if putting a drug on a blade to fight dishonorably makes you fall. If it makes you fall (which, going along with the traditional paladin code, it WILL) then you atone for your sin. Asmodeus will not see a problem with you using a drug that way, so he will say, "Okay, here's your power back".

Now, that said, this whole thing stinks of simply playing numbers and using rules strictly as written to make a broken character. I can't imagine a GM allowing a paladin to choose a god that goes directly against what a paladin fights to uphold. Asmodeus would prefer the paladin to kill LG characters. That would cause a paladin to lose his powers. That's the game mechanic. The reason a paladin loses his powers is partially due to the god's displeasure, but also because of moral violations.

As someone pointed out, paladins avoid working with evil characters. Why would he serve an evil god? Makes no sense, whatsoever other than pointing at a book and saying, "But I have this trait". As a GM, I wouldn't allow it, but if your GM allowed it, he's the one that has to deal with the headache.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Halek wrote:

Ok so no actual rules conflicts just a massive pile of rp concerns and some people would houserule it to work differently.

You are making the mistake of treating "rules" and "RP" as separate, and one as more important/substantial than the other; it's a popular misconception, but none of it's true. They're deeply interwoven, and Paladins are a case in point. Most of the disingenuous baloney raised about them would likely be null issues if only more people understood that.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Halek wrote:

Ok so no actual rules conflicts just a massive pile of rp concerns and some people would houserule it to work differently.

You are making the mistake of treating "rules" and "RP" as separate, and one as more important/substantial than the other; it's a popular misconception, but none of it's true. They're deeply interwoven, and Paladins are a case in point. Most of the disingenuous baloney raised about them would likely be null issues if only more people understood that.

They are separate and depending on the table one is often more substansial than the other. I get what you are saying though. This is a case where the flavor could cause a rules problem.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Halek wrote:
You start by picking up the Pact Servant trait which lets you treat Papa as lawful neutral for worshiping.

So I got around to looking this up.

Pact Servant Trait wrote:
The faith of Holomog focuses on finding the good in unusual places and appreciating the nuances of virtue in the world. You may treat Asmodeus as if he were a lawful neutral deity for the purposes of determining your own alignment as a cleric, inquisitor, or other divine spellcaster. You may not select the evil domain unless your own alignment also contains an evil aspect.

(Bolding mine). That is very, very, very different from saying that paladins can treat him as LN for the purposes of ignoring the code of conduct and associates rules.

Very. Different.


wraithstrike wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Halek wrote:

Ok so no actual rules conflicts just a massive pile of rp concerns and some people would houserule it to work differently.

You are making the mistake of treating "rules" and "RP" as separate, and one as more important/substantial than the other; it's a popular misconception, but none of it's true. They're deeply interwoven, and Paladins are a case in point. Most of the disingenuous baloney raised about them would likely be null issues if only more people understood that.
They are separate and depending on the table one is often more substansial than the other. I get what you are saying though. This is a case where the flavor could cause a rules problem.

They are separate in a non golarion generic setting. Every single time you enter a setting however, rp adjusts the rules. GMs can change that but in the pathfinder setting RP informs feat allowances and class mechanics.

Silver Crusade

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Oh man, I knew this will come back someday.


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Gorbacz wrote:
Oh man, I knew this will come back someday.

Arms... so... tired...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Ryan Freire wrote:
wraithstrike wrote:
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Halek wrote:

Ok so no actual rules conflicts just a massive pile of rp concerns and some people would houserule it to work differently.

You are making the mistake of treating "rules" and "RP" as separate, and one as more important/substantial than the other; it's a popular misconception, but none of it's true. They're deeply interwoven, and Paladins are a case in point. Most of the disingenuous baloney raised about them would likely be null issues if only more people understood that.
They are separate and depending on the table one is often more substansial than the other. I get what you are saying though. This is a case where the flavor could cause a rules problem.
They are separate in a non golarion generic setting. Every single time you enter a setting however, rp adjusts the rules. GMs can change that but in the pathfinder setting RP informs feat allowances and class mechanics.

I understand that but I was speaking for the majority of the rules. Even in Golarion you can choose most of the feats, and come up with your own flavor. Only when the flavor is hardcoded into the feat or trait does flavor stop anything.

From what I read of the post I replied to the poster was trying to say they were universally equal, which is why I brought up tables.


2 people marked this as a favorite.
quibblemuch wrote:
Halek wrote:
You start by picking up the Pact Servant trait which lets you treat Papa as lawful neutral for worshiping.

So I got around to looking this up.

Pact Servant Trait wrote:
The faith of Holomog focuses on finding the good in unusual places and appreciating the nuances of virtue in the world. You may treat Asmodeus as if he were a lawful neutral deity for the purposes of determining your own alignment as a cleric, inquisitor, or other divine spellcaster. You may not select the evil domain unless your own alignment also contains an evil aspect.

(Bolding mine). That is very, very, very different from saying that paladins can treat him as LN for the purposes of ignoring the code of conduct and associates rules.

Very. Different.

Quibble is right. If we're playing RAW lawyering to cram a square peg into a round hole, Pact Servant only allows your paladin to be LG while worshiping Ashmodeus since for the purpose of YOUR alignment. Ashmodeus is still treated as evil and it does not preclude the general paladin code of only limiting associating with evil to only when needed for the greater good. While a paladin can work with even a devil to slay a worse evil, worshiping the (possibly) oldest evil god in Golarion is definitely a violation.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Even if you could find a way to make the concept rules legal, the bigger questions are:
What do you hope to achieve by playing this concept? and
Do you think this character will promote a harmonious and enjoyable gaming experience for all participants?

I suspect that when you answer the first one, it will boil down to some variant of 'I want to have fun at the expense of my fellow players' (i.e. being a jerk) and the answer to the second one will be no. Unless the GM and other players have all agreed on the concept, in which case it can be houseruled legal, pick another more agreeable concept.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Alternative: Just go antipaladin with the tyrant archetype. 100% core, and now you can flavor yourself as a paladin of Asmodeus without being a dick about "Well, you guys don't have any real arguments against something clearly disallowed by the rules and common game sense in general!"


Dark Midian wrote:
Alternative: Just go antipaladin with the tyrant archetype. 100% core, and now you can flavor yourself as a paladin of Asmodeus without being a dick about "Well, you guys don't have any real arguments against something clearly disallowed by the rules and common game sense in general!"

All of this, if you want to worship an evil god, you need to be an evil thing, which is what an antipaladin is, an evil paladin.

Also back to your argument about poison. All drugs can be poison in the right dosage, just as poisons in the right dosage can be medicine. Think of snake venom, you use snake venom to make an anti venom... Snake venom is poison... or an even more extreme example would be chemo. Which is carefully administered radiation, and radiation is really not good for you in certain amounts.


The purpose of this was to set up a paladin to fall and shift to the tyrant antipaladin over the course of the campaign. You are allowed to associate with evil to defeat what you believe to be a greater evil. So you can make a deal with Papa Asmodeus if you believe what you are fighting is a greater evil.

So if you are constantly fighting what you perceive as the greater evil that clause of the code kicks in and lets you not fall.

I am not sure what issue using drugs would cause. I recognize the issues with obeying an evil gods tenets while being unable to do evil.

Drugs are a separate category of academical item and are separate from poisons. The in world line can be blurred but mechanically they are different.

So to refine the character concept. A rigid unyielding warrior constantly preparing to launch some expedition or crusade against evil threats. He is renowned for slathering his blade in holy oil(opium) and smiting evil. His only rest is the bare minimum needed to keep himself moving on his never ending crusade to purge evil from the world. When forced through circumstance to reside in civilization he rigorously researches local laws. His first stop in every major kingdom is a courthouse to get deputized. All to prepare for his great expedition to the abyss itself.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It is Mama Asmodeus if you are one of her Paladins

And the ban on poison illustrates honor. AFAIK , the specific culture in which you can become a Paladin of Asmodeus does not see weakening your enemy with drugs as honorable behaviour :-)


2 people marked this as a favorite.

"Mama" Asmodeus? I don't get it.

I'm also curious as to how a paladin came to worship Asmodeus and pledge his allegiance to him.

Opium used as a poison is a direct violation of the paladin code. Use of any poison is considered dishonorable because you're relying on a sneaky tactic to give you the upper hand. Like throwing dirt in your opponents eyes or saying "Look behind you!". It may be a drug, but you're using it as a poison and that's dirty pool old man.

Silver Crusade

4 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

The Pact Servant trait belongs to a World and Region specific heretical cult in Holomog that worships an alternate (and very, very heretical) interpretation of Asmodeus.

They don't worship Asmodues, they worship The Wily Linguist, LN Goddess of oaths and contracts.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I see the trick is the paladin is on the opium...


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vidmaster7 said wrote:
I see the trick is the paladin is on the opium...

LOL! That's it! That explains everything.


I was going to go with a dramatic origin story where the paladin was given his powers fighting some chaotic evil attack and entered a contract to fight evil forever. I like the paladin being constantly high instead.

The opium throws off his perceptions about what is the greater evil to face allowing him to worship Asmodeus without thinking anything of it. Giving his oppenents 1d8 of temp hp with every swing seems like an honorable thing to do.

Maybe go with the chosen one archetype. Wait would that let you get an imp familiar as a paladin. You could have it start as a raven that only speaks infernal and tells our erstwhile crusader what to do. then it turns into an imp. If it is on golarion he could help our paladin constantly plan his crusade to purge the moon of evil.

Don Quixote style crusading sounds better than rigid enforcer.
ain't no rule saying paladins can't do all the drugs. Heck lay on hands and lesser restoration can get rid of the ability damage.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Paladin's are "holy" warriors, LG all the way:

Code of Conduct: A paladin must be of lawful good alignment and loses all class features except proficiencies if she ever willingly commits an evil act.

Asmodeus divine representatives must be LN, LE or NE. His alignment is LE.

Now, in D&D 5th edition, maybe you can, but in Pathfinder there are no paladins to evil deities.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Which is why he started with the Pact Servant trait, which allows you to treat Asmodeus as LN (and allows you to be LG). Devs have already commented (not here, elsewhere) that it wasn't supposed to work like that for paladins, but OP cares only for stuff in the books, not dev comments on the forums.

Liberty's Edge

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Halek wrote:

I was going to go with a dramatic origin story where the paladin was given his powers fighting some chaotic evil attack and entered a contract to fight evil forever. I like the paladin being constantly high instead.

The opium throws off his perceptions about what is the greater evil to face allowing him to worship Asmodeus without thinking anything of it. Giving his oppenents 1d8 of temp hp with every swing seems like an honorable thing to do.

Maybe go with the chosen one archetype. Wait would that let you get an imp familiar as a paladin. You could have it start as a raven that only speaks infernal and tells our erstwhile crusader what to do. then it turns into an imp. If it is on golarion he could help our paladin constantly plan his crusade to purge the moon of evil.

Don Quixote style crusading sounds better than rigid enforcer.
ain't no rule saying paladins can't do all the drugs. Heck lay on hands and lesser restoration can get rid of the ability damage.

Alright, while I do give you points for fun zaniness, this does not jive from either a mechanical or RP perspective. And perhaps you could play a drug-addled fallen Paladin who thinks he is a wonderful person who has been given amazing divine powers by Asmodeus, when in reality your character is just delirious junky with delusions of grandeur. Because I cannot see how you would have any goodly divine powers whatsoever.

First, from whence would this hypothetical Paladin's powers actually emerge? In order to be a Paladin, you have to be both lawful and good, and stand for justice and abide by the Paladin's Code. While you do not necessarily have to worship a Good God like Clerics do, you do have to abide by the Paladin's code. Worshipping and following the moral precepts of an Evil God isn't simply "associating" with a lesser evil in order to defeat a greater evil. You are making yourself a servant to one of the greatest evils in the multiverse...Asmodeus is literally the divine embodiment of tyranny and oppression. And again, your character is LITERALLY WORSHIPPING HIM AND PUTTING HIS FAITH IN HIM. This isn't a mere "association" or "alliance of convenience," unless your understanding of religious conviction is like that of Beni Gabor's from The Mummy. Just wear a holy symbol and mutter some incantations. That's all a religion is!

Second, being a drug addict generally means you are giving into your most base desires (the pursuit of physical pleasure through drug highs) at the cost of other important moral duties. I do not know if you have had to deal with drug-addicted people IRL who are constantly high. The novelty of being around someone who constantly puts him/herself in a pleasurable drug-induced stupor wears off very quickly.

Now, perhaps you can play a Paladin who is able to maintain both his lawful good alignment while still being a slave to his drug addiction, never breaking any moral precepts or being derelict in his duties all the while being addicted to opium. A lot of drug addicts are able to live relatively normal lives and can function while in the grip of addiction, and can continue to do so as long as they can feed their addiction (at least until their addiction interferes with their lives and things fall apart and they choose to continue feeding their addiction over maintaining their other social responsibilities). In that same vein, the moment your paladin character has to choose between following his alignment and code, or feeding his addiction, what does he do? If he always follows his code lives up to his alignment and his code and does not fall...what exactly was the point from an role playing perspective? Why is he a drug addict if you are not going to play him as a drug addict? And if you are playing someone who you know is going to be unable to maintain his alignment when push comes to shove, why on earth be a Paladin?

I mean, if you want to play a character who is destined to fail and basically fall in the first play session, bully for you. I cannot think of a better character concept for such purposes. But, again, why not play the drug-addicted fighter or rogue? Or wizard or alchemist for that matter? Why do you want to play a character that you are essentially trying to cripple right out of the gate?


3 people marked this as a favorite.

Halek,
Your big conceptual problem is you are ignoring what the Pact feat is all about.
Your paladin is patently not worshipping the LN goddess form of Asmodeus. He sees and worships Asmodeus in all his evil glory. He can't fall because the concept is a fail to start with, ruleswise.


So here's how a Paladin could effectively worship Asmodeus, with the Pact Servant trait. Asmodeus, as per the trait, is treated as a Lawful Neutral Deity.

The Paladin is a Debt Collector. Anyone who would make a deal with Asmodeus or another devil is automatically damned and/or evil, so hunting down a debtor is necessary so that the debtor can fulfill their part of the contract, unless they try welching on the contract in which case the debtor's soul is forfeit.


For that debt collector to be effective, he would need to be LN or LE. A LG, especially a Paladin, would be too inclined to fall for sob stories. "I'm still struggling trying to feed my 5 starving children and take care of all these orphan babies. Please, just 1 more week?" Paladin gets fired because he's good and he must help those in need. If he uses his own money (or whatever it is that is owed) to pay the debt, that surely wouldn't sit well with the boss-man and the Paladin can't lie about it.

Dark Archive

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Pact Servant wrote:
The faith of Holomog focuses on nding the good in unusual places and appreciating the nuances of virtue in the world. You may treat Asmodeus as if he were a lawful neutral deity for the purposes of determining your own alignment as a cleric, inquisitor, or other divine spellcaster. You may not select the evil domain unless your own alignment also contains an evil aspect.

This trait appears on page 23 in the book Distant Shores. It does allow a paladin to worship Asmodeus.


Yes. Game mechanics allow it. It's the roleplay that will be an issue. Asmodeus would ask certain things of his leaders (clerics and paladins) that would cause ethical questions. If you play in a group that simply goes by the rule books and doesn't get into the roleplay aspect of the game, there will be no problem. I think, this trait is a silly concept.


Chuck Mount wrote:
Asmodeus would ask certain things of his leaders (clerics and paladins) that would cause ethical questions.

Wouldn't that be something that would come up in the game vs before that game? Is it really a reason to not allow it at start but a matter of STAYING one as the game progresses? From what the OP said, it sounds like he was planning on using those "ethical questions" to shift to an antipaladin.

For me I'd say he should start with worshiping The Wily Linguist and at some point figure out it's actually Asmodeus, giving him a chance to rethink things.

As to opium... I think most Dm would equate poisons to drugs and disallow its use: Feel free to try to get a DM to let it in but i wouldn't expect good results.

PS: I like the Pact Servant trait because it allow me to make a true neutral divine caster of Asmodeus! It's all about the contracts baby! [nothing personal]

Grand Lodge

One minor problem is that Paladins are immune to disease and the rules define addiction as a disease ergo the paladin can't be addicted to opium or at the least stops being addicted when they gain Divine health (Unless you take an archetype that trades out that class feature).


graystone said wrote:
Wouldn't that be something that would come up in the game vs before that game? Is it really a reason to not allow it at start but a matter of STAYING one as the game progresses? From what the OP said, it sounds like he was planning on using those "ethical questions" to shift to an antipaladin.

It might come up in game, but I was directly referring to Chris' post about the trait. Traits are normally taken at character creation, so it's generally assumed that it's an established paladin in the service of an evil god.


Chuck Mount wrote:
graystone said wrote:
Wouldn't that be something that would come up in the game vs before that game? Is it really a reason to not allow it at start but a matter of STAYING one as the game progresses? From what the OP said, it sounds like he was planning on using those "ethical questions" to shift to an antipaladin.
It might come up in game, but I was directly referring to Chris' post about the trait. Traits are normally taken at character creation, so it's generally assumed that it's an established paladin in the service of an evil god.

That's not what the trait does though... He's a paladin of a LN god, the Wily Linguist. So "at character creation" why assume he's ignoring the trait and worshiping Asmodeus' LE aspect?

To be clear, the trait lets divine casters to treat Asmodeus as LN: Ergo, so NOT "an established paladin in the service of an evil god."

PS: As to why Asmodeus would allow paladin followers. A LG force that he can direct at evil gods/demons/devils/ect that gets in his way? And one that he can pull their power at any time? Sounds exactly what he'd do. He's all about law and trickery. ;)


As a paladin or cleric, you're worshiping an aspect of a god. You're worshiping and teaching all aspects of the god. Only followers get to pick and choose what parts of the religion they like. Sure, Asmodeus would like to direct a good force against other good forces, but that would go against the paladin's code of honor. As I mentioned, being LG he wants to help people. He NEEDS to help people and do good. Asmodeus would give him an order, at some point, and he's either going to ditch the god or fall from grace. Either way, a paladin with THAT as a patron deity doesn't work in a roleplay scenario. Sure, game mechanic-wise, it's in the rules, so you can do it. It's perfectly acceptable for someone to play a paladin with that trait and never have an issue because the rules say it. If the GM roleplays, rather than blindly follows the rules, then it because much more difficult.
That said... These are merely my opinions and and I'm not telling anyone not to allow it. It's my firm belief that clerics and paladins are meant to be leaders or the faith and, as such, it's their duty to teach followers about all aspects of a god and embrace all aspects of their faith. Choosing to pretend that Asmodeus isn't as bad as he seems and that child sacrifices or gruesome torture are perfectly acceptable are things that a paladin should have a problem with.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Drug Using Paladin of Papa Asmodeus All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.