Character build advice for a deadly campaign.


Advice


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Campaign parameters:

Spoiler:

Combat to the tune of 11+ encounters before you get a rest.
You cannot buy magic items, especially healing potions.
Spellcasters that scribe will not be able to add spells other than what is obtained by leveling (i.e. wizard 2/lvl)
Little or no downtime, so crafting while not impossible is difficult. Figure 1 day to craft items are probably doable.
Frequently EL+5 (or higher) (last session the APL3 party fought a succubus who had support and/or enviro advantages)

3rd level.
Standard wealth by level (if you could have crafted something yourself, even with the discounts for class only, etc. it's legal)-but only for new characters. Existing characters will most likely be at 10% wealth by level. (My L6 wizard has 600 gp total net worth)
Any Paizo source.
No 3rd party.
No gnomes.
32 pt buy or 28 pt buy for bonus feat, 24 pt for 2 bonus feat (at level 1)
2 traits (standard rules).


I usually avoid these games but I'm feeling masochistic today since actual face to face tabletop opportunities are rare in my town.

What kind of builds would you folks suggest? Current party is 2 oracles, 3 martials, and an arcane hybrid (I think a magus). But usually we are short 2-3 players.

I have a few ideas:
Dwarf Stonesinger Geokineticist. Decent survivability, darkvision, and can keep going and going and going. Not a powerhouse by any means but reliable and steady. And since no magic items...well there aren't that many for this class anyway.
Classic Half-elf Summoner with Quadrapouncer. Pet takes brunt of attacks while my summoner hides and thinks stealthy thoughts.
Possibly an archer build (say vanilla ranger if I can meta what type of foes are more common). Maybe with an at-will (ranger only) item of either gravity bow (for dps) or infernal healing (because hard to find downtime and no healing.) Plus with Longstrider he'll be starting at range and faster on foot running away... :)

Musket Master (maybe but I may run into ammo problems if the GM makes ammo mats as rare as everything else)

I'd buy a wayfinder with cracked spindle...but don't have enough after a main weapon or at-will 1st level item.

Avoiding spell casters because you will shoot yourself dry long before you can get anoter rest.

Any other suggestions (other than run away) :)


Well......

um........

Ok, if this were me, i would go with the kineticist personally... you have many options/routes to take, and not requiring rest, you can do your stuff all day.... unless you a burn freak.....
Im a big Dwarf fan myself so i second the race choice. As for element... i prefer air or water myself. I know dwarves are all about stone and rocks and such but the other elements offer much imo... air gets you flight at a decent lvl, and water gets you AC right off the bat when armor is pricy (+4 ac at lvl 1 and increases with lvl, not greatly, but still increases. and with burn you can get more)

I had a air kineticist dwarf played alot like Thor.... flys, shoots lightning, and so on.... loads of fun.

There is also the kinetic knight if you wanna be a melee guy... you lose out on a ranged blast, but gain hvy armor/weapons and your kinetic element is you weapon.

My 2 coppers


You could try a Hunter. You get an animal companion, and at level 2, you get either Outflank or Precise Shot for free. Plus bonus Teamwork feats every 3 levels that your companion shares. And though you said no spellcasters, the Hunter has access to both Druid and Ranger spells which can be helpful in a tight spot. At the very least, you can take CLW so you can heal yourself and the rest of the party if really needed and can take an area spell at level 4.

Scarab Sages

How about Warpriest Archer? I'm enjoying mine a lot. You always have ranged damage. You don't generally run out of arrows in most campaigns and you get decent support spells and back up healing that you can use for party in a long run.

Looking at your current party I think some sort of archer build probably benefits your group the most.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for the suggestions folks...I plan to roll several throw aways but will focus on Kineticist cause range plus utility plus Energizer bunny. Not so sure about the element...I like saying "I throw a rock!" when asked on my turn what I do...and earth does have some utility, granted missing out on fly, invis, tk, haste, etc... with aether/air hurm. And water has access to the nice AoE infusions...dang.

Decisions, decisions...


I think a Half-Orc Paladin (Hospitaler) would be good. Get several Channels that don't eat Lay on Hands (allowing supplemental healing) and it has no real downsides*. I'd probably dump Int, and go in order Cha, Con, Dex, Str, Wis, Int. This should max your Saves, HP, and AC.

*[It makes the Channels worse in terms of level, but you get to do it several times in addition to your Lay on Hands instead of replacing it, meaning you can heal the party ~7 times per day for 1D6 at level 4, which is pretty massive. It's also still a good way to clear loads of mediocre Undead.]

Paladins get +Cha to saves, are immune to disease and fear, and give fear bonuses to party members, while also being able to heal quite reasonably and can use a mercy to cure some common ailment you think the GM will throw at you.

Smite Evil is also better against higher CR enemies, especially when you have bad gear. Being able to ignore their DR and hit them easily (and with extra damage) isn't a bad way to bypass one of the encounters by itself.

Half-Orcs have Darkvision, can use HornBows (2d6 bow with str!), and have Orc Ferocity (which will give you supplemental psuedo-HP so you can keep yourself from dying without needing assistance when combined with lay on hands, channel, or similar.) Note: this works with Smite Evil to give you an accurate full-damage attack at good range.

Being able to HornBow your opponents if they hang back is neat; and swapping to a 10ft Spear when they want to close. This gives you AoO opportunities, and you can do a:
* Drop the bow
* 5 Ft Step back to avoid Provoking
* Move Action to pull out the spear
* Still attack your opponent at 10ft

It gives you synergies for your party if they have Enlarge Person and stuff too. This has good potential for AoOs and may result in you protecting the party from extra melee dudes or simply piling on damage.

Then wear the heaviest armor you can afford (Breastplate for +6 allows your +2 or +3 from dex) isn't a bad start. I'd have a backup weapon (Warhammer?) and Heavy Shield too, so you can pump to 20, then defend to 22 or 24.

If you end up going the Dazzling Display route, you also have a +2 to intimidate checks from Half-orc; which is alright.

___________
Summarizing this gives you:
* (very) Good Saves including against Poison, Ref spells, etc
* Reasonably good AC
* Fear and Disease Immunity
* Fear Support for the party
* Supplemental healing and a lot of it
* AoO opportunities to increase DPR in melee
* Darkvision
* Good ranged attacking (2d6 + Str)
* Not Disabled when you go below 0 HP for added survivability

Note: your saves can easily be +9 +7 +7 with your level 3 build, with no item support.


I will second Cattleman's Hospitaler (damn you Cattleman for beating me to it). In a game where magical healing is going to be scarce and probably unaffordable, having a character who can act as a frontline fighter, a healer and even a party face is win win win.

You needn't play a half orc, dual-classed human can get +2 to STR and CHA. Aasimars are good too. Fey foundling feat is good for increasing the healing you get from lay on hands and channel.

Tieflings have an insane FCB for Paladins - +1 per level added to your lay on hands if you use it on yourself.

It's probably a good idea to save as many lay on hands for yourself in any case, since it can be used in combat as a swift action. You should have plenty of channels for the other PC's.


Play a rogue who sneaks ahead and steals treasure before the party gets there. Stay out of combat, and look for opportunities to loot or get the kill. Swallow all gems you find if you think there's any chance of losing them. Think Malik from Conan the Destroyer and volunteer to stay behind and watch the horses.


Paladin archer? You can fight all day with good survivability.


The Nite Owl wrote:
You needn't play a half orc, dual-classed human can get +2 to STR and CHA. Aasimars are good too.

Ferocity by itself is almost worth two feats (Diehard) and nearly doubles his effective HP and access to the HornBow would be pretty good. The free Darkvision is a nice bonus too. I think all of that compared to an extra 2 Ability Score is way better. Ferocity allows him to Lay on Hands while he'd normally be Dying and not even fall prone, let alone unconcious. In a campaign where he may take 30 damage in a round with an HP pool of 25 or less; I think that's hugely valuable.

Additionally, a HornBow is a greatsword you can shoot 100ft; possibly multiple times if you took a couple feats for it and used the Spear (or w/e) as a backup instead. If he took PBS and Rapid Shot, he'd be firing 4d6+4 (strx2) each round at +6 to hit; +7 within 30ft. Given his party sounds like it has a lot of melee, being able to fling a bunch of damage at a wizard, a flying thing, or similar (at near greatsword levels of damage) seems like a good deal IMO.


Here's one for lulls.

Reincarnated Druid.

For crunch, focus on the Animal Companion with buffing it for combat and using area control type spells. If companion dies, takes 24 hours of praying to get a new one.

The silly part is that after 5th level, if you die, you automatically reincarnate. You have to be killed again within 7 days to be permanently dead.


Hospitaler is good though i found it useful to pair it with a halfling so i could take the feat "lucky halfling" and get the favored class bonus to agument my lay on hands.

The unbreakable fighter archetype is also pretty nice since you get two feats for one at first level one of which being diehard. Which pairs nicely with the human racial trait "heart of the wilderness" which expands how far into the negatives you can go before dying.

Fey foundling is nice regardless of your class as is the feat "racial heritage" which you can use to quailfy for good defensive feats that are normally orc or dwarf only.

The trait adopted can be used to get the goblin trait "bouncy", which is pretty nice for a trait.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Again thanks for the tips...

To give an idea of a typical encounter...party has been fighting all day. Resources are low.

One PC is dead.
The pally in the group is currently a goat (polymorphed) and the rest of the party (including a new fighter who shows up in loincloth and a spear, because that's all he was allowed to start with) is fighting a boss on her home terrain, with minion support.
Average party level is 3.

Said boss is a succubus (probably advanced and with max hp because that is what the DM does at a minimum.) If the party starts winning, expect another wave of reinforcements...though undetermined type and numbers.

I'm trying very hard not to meta...LOL. But thinking a get out of dodge character may be useful. Or maybe I should just surrender and offer myself as a minion. :)

Oh and here's a basic build...32 pt buy but for 4 pts each you can get a bonus feat...so I dropped it to 24 point buy, though if you think I should sac a feat or two and go with more stats let me know.

Hammer the Pally of Justice and Wrath oh and helping suffering folks:

Half-Orc Paladin (Hospitaler)
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 11 Cha 16

Feats
1-PBS
1B-Precise Shot
1B-Rapid Shot
3-Sacred Tattoo

Traits
Fate's Favored +1 to all luck bonuses
Reactionary

F+10 R+9 W+8
AC 20
Speed 20

Combat Gear
MW Breastplate
MW Buckler
MW Darkwood Str+2 Hornbow
?? Some melee (probably a spear for reach)

Class abilities
1-Aura of good, detect evil, smite evil 1/day
2-Divine grace, lay on hands
3-Aura of courage, divine health, mercy(fatigue)

Custom magic item (it's a home game) = Divine Favor, at-will pally only.

Atk: +3(dex)+3(bab)+1(pbs)+1(mw)+2(DF)=+10
Dam: 2d6(hornbow)+2(str)+1(pbs)+2(DF)

+10 vs. AC 2d6+5 20x3
Rapid Shot
+8/+8 vs AC 2d6+5 20x3

Suggestions welcome.


Why do you have Sacred Tattoo listed as a feat, rather than a racial trait?


Rerednaw wrote:
What kind of builds would you folks suggest? Current party is 2 oracles, 3 martials, and an arcane hybrid (I think a magus).

Get two characters to pick up 1 level of life oracle. Have (at least) one of those characters pick up the Endurance, Die Hard, and Fast Healer feats. This is EASY to do with the +2 bonus feat potential. This will allow your group to be 5 or less hitpoints from full after fights.

Example: Half-Orc the Heal-Resonation Paladin

S: 17 C: 14 D: 12 I: 10 W: 10 Ch: 16 (24 pt half-orc)

Feats:

Endurance (half-orc racial alternate)
Diehard (Bonus 1st)
Fast Healer (Bonus 1st)
Fey Foundling (1st)

Level 1 Life Oracle (Life Link Revelation)
Level 1 Paladin
Level 2 Paladin

Every time you get healed magically (via another Life Link too), you get healed for +7 hitpoints (while 5 hitpoints damage is dealt by the other end of the life link). You are eliminating 2 hitpoints of damage from the group every round by swapping the 5 damage between the two life oracles.

I tossed in Fey Foundling for better emergency healing, but this option isn't needed. You can swap CON and CHA above to remove damage slightly faster.


Well, since the GM asks for it, you can pull all the cheese that's not yet forbidden or nerfed:

Master summoner
Synthesist summoner with paladin dip (or antipaladin)
Flowing monk
Zen archer
Quinggong monk (after brooding over the list of options long enough)
Vivisectonist alchemist with natural weapons, probably tumor familiar
Wordcasters using spells that otherwise would need expensive material components (for good reason)
Leadership (as soon as available)
etc.

Personally I'd go for a necromancer, hiding behind my pretty much indestructable bloody skeletons. Or for a multiclass heavy melee build, collecting save bonuses and low level abilities, hoping it's enough. Maybe I'd try to pull a rogue - especially with the option of an at-will vanish item.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:
Why do you have Sacred Tattoo listed as a feat, rather than a racial trait?

Honestly thought it was a feat and not alternate race trait...hurm replaces ferocity...tough call...will have to think more.


Rerednaw wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Why do you have Sacred Tattoo listed as a feat, rather than a racial trait?
Honestly thought it was a feat and not alternate race trait...hurm replaces ferocity...tough call...will have to think more.

I think you ALWAYS want to replace Orc Ferocity.

In a typical campaign it is WAY more deadly to have Orc Ferocity than to not have it. If you go unconscious, the enemies will usually move on to threatening targets. If you're still standing, they will keep wailing on you, when you are virtually certain to be one hit from dead. And what do you get in exchange for all that additional risk? ONE standard action, OR, ONE move action. You can't even take out a potion and drink it! (Not that you'll have healing potions anyway, from the sounds of it.)

Unless this GM is big into coup de graces, I'd recommend any excuse to trade away Orc Ferocity. By taking Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored, you're trading something away that's likely to kill you for something that's likely to keep you alive.


RumpinRufus wrote:


Unless this GM is big into coup de graces, I'd recommend any excuse to trade away Orc Ferocity. By taking Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored, you're trading something away that's likely to kill you for something that's likely to keep you alive.

Why? Swift-action heal saves the party having to heal you, and you get to stay standing. Now that you're no longer disabled (due to the heal) you can keep taking your turn as normal.

I don't think having people be disabled/prone/unconcious is good in a campaign where you'll regularly go down to massive enemies. This dramatically reduces the possibility of TPK IMO.

EDIT: In terms of action economy this:
* Saves you a move action (prone)
* Saves an ally a Move Action and a Standard Action (at a minimum.)
* possibly buys you a Move Action and a Standard Action as well (by using your swift action to make yourself no-longer disabled.)

That's severe action economy gain.


Cattleman wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:


Unless this GM is big into coup de graces, I'd recommend any excuse to trade away Orc Ferocity. By taking Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored, you're trading something away that's likely to kill you for something that's likely to keep you alive.
Why? Swift-action heal saves the party having to heal you, and you get to stay standing. Now that you're no longer disabled (due to the heal) you can keep taking your turn as normal.

Interesting point and one that I hadn't considered, but I'm not sure it works that way. My reading of RAW would say you still are acting as if disabled even if you heal.

Orc Ferocity wrote:
Once per day, when a half-orc is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.
Disabled wrote:

A character with 0 hit points, or one who has negative hit points but has become stable and conscious, is disabled. A disabled character may take a single move action or standard action each round (but not both, nor can he take full-round actions, but he can still take swift, immediate, and free actions). He moves at half speed. Taking move actions doesn’t risk further injury, but performing any standard action (or any other action the GM deems strenuous, including some free actions such as casting a Quicken Spell spell) deals 1 point of damage after the completion of the act. Unless the action increased the disabled character’s hit points, he is now in negative hit points and dying.

A disabled character with negative hit points recovers hit points naturally if he is being helped. Otherwise, each day he can attempt a DC 10 Constitution check after resting for 8 hours, to begin recovering hit points naturally. The character takes a penalty on this roll equal to his negative hit point total. Failing this check causes the character to lose 1 hit point, but this does not cause the character to become unconscious. Once a character makes this check, he continues to heal naturally and is no longer in danger of losing hit points naturally.

The ability does not cause him to become disabled, it just grants him the ability to act as if he were disabled. If he's acting as if disabled, that limits him to a single standard or move action. There's no indication that regaining positive HP negates the "as if disabled" stipulation. However, I would agree that if he were actually disabled and not just acting as if disabled, then a swift-action heal would remove the condition and allow him to act normally.

Anyway, not really looking to start a rules debate here, but it's worth running the question by the GM.

Regardless of the full-action/standard action question, the swift LoH definitely does make Orc Ferocity more attractive for a paladin than it does for the average character, so maybe it is worth considering. I still worry that the relatively paltry healing LoH provide (1d6 to start) is going to mean you are at greater risk of death by taking Orc Ferocity than by going another route.


RumpinRufus wrote:
long quote above

Admittedly, I'm not 100% it works by RAW; but I feel like if you healed yourself to positive HP, you should probably not "count as disabled" or "count as dying" anymore, since you're not. Still, it would have to be torn apart in an rules thread. As a gm, I'd allow it.

___
As for the 1d6, this is actually the only reason I didn't suggest a Fighter 1 (or another class dip) since they'll need all the healing and saves and whatnot they can get, and the healing of 2d6 at Paly3, the aura of courage, etc.. all come online at level 3, so dipping is a substantial cost given the difficulty of the campaign. I'm not even sure if they gain levels in the campaign, but my entire suggestion banks on Paly4 because Hospitaler doesn't do anything until Paly4.

Anyway, that may clarify why I've mentioned what I have. I agree that in a *regular* campaign the GM may not kill you while you're down, and you're less likely to be TPK'd, but this campaign is particularly cruel/deadly it sounds like. Given that, having a psuedo-HP buffer is almost the only reason I said "Half-Orc."

If he wants Sacred tattoo, more power to him, but it seems like a loss to me since his saves will already be pretty good and Orc Ferocity with the Paly backup means he can (if nothing else) heal the whole party 1d6 before going down


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
RumpinRufus wrote:
Rerednaw wrote:
RumpinRufus wrote:
Why do you have Sacred Tattoo listed as a feat, rather than a racial trait?
Honestly thought it was a feat and not alternate race trait...hurm replaces ferocity...tough call...will have to think more.

I think you ALWAYS want to replace Orc Ferocity.

In a typical campaign it is WAY more deadly to have Orc Ferocity than to not have it....
Unless this GM is big into coup de graces, I'd recommend any excuse to trade away Orc Ferocity. By taking Sacred Tattoo and Fate's Favored, you're trading something away that's likely to kill you for something that's likely to keep you alive.

Yup normally I'd agree...that said.

I believe I mentioned that this was NOT a typical campaign. :)

One example: GM used modified double advanced cloakers and gave them a modified (Ex)...AoE Hold (helpless) with no saves by round after you fail. The following turn each of the cloakers instead of going after the ones who actually made 6 Will saves, proceeded to CDG those who failed.

My L7 wizard who was ambushed in a surprise round by Salamanders who lept up from lava, charged, and then hit him...and then hit him again the first round of combat was at -1. The next rounds he took 3 fireballs from an invisible CL10 evoker. There wasn't even ashes left. So that's why I'm thinking the chance to swift heal and then beat feet may be worth it...or embrace the death and roll another toon :)


For those very low levels, it's hard to beat the summoner. The versatility and damage mitigation of those summons is pretty huge.


Not to beat a dead horse on the whole ferocity issue ... but it seems like there are two camps ... one which says its deadly to take it, as the DM usually ignores characters who are bleeding out ... whereas the other is saying it is awesome, as you get to heal while bleeding out.

What do you think when the enemy still has at least one attack left when they drop you into the negatives? Is it helpful, or hurtful.

For the post about spending feats on fast healer ... there are traits you can take which increase magical healing (or a level in medium / hierophant) which is a much less expensive way of doing what you are describing (3 feats is huge).

I guess the question I want to ask the OP is ... why is this campaign interesting to you? If the DM is doing CR+5 monsters against you, with additional environmental conditions ... are you trying to beat the DM? Or are you just playing around with making severely overpowered characters?

If you want survivability ... go high AC build ... (multi-class kitsune, fox shape, level 4 pick up amulet of mighty fists (agile)) -- you have almost no skills, but you have the DPS, the saves, and the AC.


Melkiador wrote:
For those very low levels, it's hard to beat the summoner. The versatility and damage mitigation of those summons is pretty huge.

How does a summoner handle 11 encounters/day?


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
meyerwilliam wrote:

Not to beat a dead horse on the whole ferocity issue ... but it seems like there are two camps ... one ...

I guess the question I want to ask the OP is ... why is this campaign interesting to you? If the DM is doing CR+5 monsters against you, with additional environmental conditions ... are you trying to beat the DM? Or are you just playing around with making severely overpowered characters?

If you want survivability ... go high AC build...

Actually first sentence of my OP.
Quote:
I usually avoid these games but I'm feeling masochistic today since actual face to face tabletop opportunities are rare in my town.

I GM about 100 hours for every hour I might get to play. Trying to avoid burnout. I know I am not the only one, but even games like this are sometimes better than not playing at all...besides I can try to coach the DM and it is a chance to network with more ppl and maybe even train some more GMs to rotate running.

There are more play opportunities via VTT, but I like face to face interactions...so *shrug*

Now going back to the actual topic. I think I will go with the Kineticist. I like the concept "I throw a rock!"

The Exchange

Hexes are good options for many encounters so i suggest Shaman.


A suggestion probably too late but still. Undead Horde using Cleric combination. The horde keeps monsters off you and any killed you reuse as new minions. A straight Cleric or a Cleric Occultist Combination give you the best bang for you buck. Clerics and Occultists cam wear any armor no spell failure. Channel helps keep Undead up and functioning. Occultist give you nice abilities and spell selection limited as they are. Necromancer school gives you even more undead to control above and beyond Raise Dead.

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