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I've created a Mystic with the Longarms proficiency feat, and since he's a priest of Sarenrae the Flame Rifle seemed appropriately thematic-- plus the Line ability is quite nice.
However after playing him in a SFS scenario this week I realized that replenishing my Petrol is going to be pretty expensive. Petrol is 60 credits for a 20-unit tank, but the flame rifle uses 5 units of petrol per shot. That's 15 credits a shot. At that rate I could easily be spending 150-200 credits per scenario just on ammo! Oof.
Compare that to 3 credits a shot for a projectile rifle (30-40 credits per scenario). And of course battery charges are completely free.
Is the high cost of petrol worth it, do you think? Or should I swap the flame rifle for another weapon? A laser rifle still technically does fire damage at least...
Personally, I'd say that cost isn't too big all things considered, sure it's more pricey than other guns, but at 15 credits for every turn you're not casting spells, it's nothing too major all told.
In terms of wether it's worth it, technically if you can hit 2 enemies per shot on average, you've improved your damage per round by a not-insignificant amount, and if you hit only 1 per turn, you're doing on average 1 point less, wich isn't too bad. You'll need to take care not to hit party members, but sindce it's a line and not a blast, it's not too hard to set it up right. I'd say for a not-full BAB class, it's not a bad choice (as full attacking might very well be too inaccurate for your purposes anyways).
Also, keep in mind that there is only 1 level of flame rifle, and it's effectively replaced by the plasma rifles starting at item level 6 (something you could get at level 4, if you're realy dead-set on it). If you're realy hung-up about the petrol cost, you can stick it out till you can buy your first plasma rifle, wich you can just slap batteries into.
Flavor-wise tho, I'd say it's a great pick. I love seeing my players do stuff like that, so I'd heartilly recommend you give it a go, I don't think you'll be far below optimal this way, and it seems to fit your theme very nicely.
I think you already figured out your answer -- it's a pretty sub-optimal weapon choice, unless you're able to pick up petrol. Which I don't think I've seen written into an SFS scenario yet. Even then, with that 25 ft. range, I'd expect to often be in situations where you can't use it until you spend a turn or two moving. Compared to the 120 ft. range of the laser rifle, and the fact you're dealing a d6 instead of d8, I'd expect the laser rifle to beat out flame rifle in both DPR and cost most of the time.
I admit it is pretty cool and thematic, but you're definitely paying for that. So I guess the question is how much the theme is worth to you.
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With SFS incentivizing use of batteries like they have I think everything else is going to become a backup pretty quickly. As you note, ammo isn't cheap, even just rounds quickly add up and really quickly if you like a bigger gun. And at low levels that's really really going to hurt, spending nearly half of what you make on the ammo you spent to make it is extremely painful in Society play. Fortunately you have options besides shooting or it would be even worse.
Honestly I'd look at the laser rifle, see if that will fill your desire for bringing the glory of the sun to the fight. You can always keep the flame rifle for a backup, or not if you're having bulk issues. Paying that much in ammo cost is going to remove your ability to upgrade yourself at low levels, and it's going to end up being a significant opportunity cost as you progress even at higher levels. If Society play wants to maker clear we should be using energy weapons then all we can do is voice a complaint at the limited choice and hope they'll eventually even the playing field again. It's sad to see all the neat things you want to do, but probably not worth the punishment to your pocket book if you can try something else without completely ignoring your concept. Personally I wanted to make a big soldier with a machine gun, but it's hard to agree to pay 360 to use that ability, or 45 for a suppressive fire attempt when the alternative is free.
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If you play a goblin things that shoot fire are always worth it.
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If you play a goblin things that shoot fire are always worth it.
Unless there is something though shoots more fire!
You can always keep the flame rifle for a backup
Maze core -> have the handy 2 in 1 package
Take a day job and buy the profession tool kit and professional clothing. With 1 rank and Wis 16, you're averaging about 44cr per scenario. I'm finding that takes a big burden off ammo expenditures.
Plus, you will sometimes find petrol.
And it is a great weapon if you can line up 2-3 opponents.
Admittedly, I prefer theme characters over cheesy power gaming.
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Take a day job and buy the profession tool kit and professional clothing. With 1 rank and Wis 16, you're averaging about 44cr per scenario. I'm finding that takes a big burden off ammo expenditures.
My character would already be doing this so it doesn't change anything vis-a-vis the comparison to other weapons. The opportunity cost is still there.
I realized there's another factor besides the petrol cost: the flame rifle is an item level 2 weapon whereas a laser rifle is only level 1-- which means the Merciful fusion I'm putting on my weapon is much cheaper for the laser rifle. Combined with the fact that the laser rifle is mechanically *far* superior to the flame rifle (120 ft range vs 25 ft, 20-shot capacity before a reload vs 4 shots, can full-attack vs having the Unwieldy property, can be Overcharged by a Mechanic ally), I'm going ahead with the Laser rifle and using the credit savings from the cheaper fusion to buy a Flame Pistol to use as a backup weapon, or for those rare occasions when 3+ enemies stand in a line with no allies in the way.
I feel like this is a good balance between flavor and mechanics, despite EC Gamer Guy's snarky comment about "cheesy power gaming".
You can't put a merciful fusion on a level 1 weapon as it is a level 2 fusion...
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You can't put a merciful fusion on a level 1 weapon as it is a level 2 fusion...You can if it's a Fusion Seal, they work backwards from ordinary Fusions (for some reason).
I think you might be misunderstanding.
A) A Fusion Seal costs 110% of the MAXIMUM weapon it could affect. So if you buy the lowest level possible Fusion Seal (Level 2), it's going to cost 360*110% credits. It costs more than a normal Level 2 Fusion, not less.
B) In the Fusion Seals section it states "A fusion seal can't be added to a weapon if doing so would cause the weapon's total level of fusions (including the level of the fusion seal) to exceed the item level." Which means you can't add a level 2 Fusion Seal to a level 1 weapon. That would prevent it from being added to a Laser Rifle.
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You can't put a merciful fusion on a level 1 weapon as it is a level 2 fusion...You can if it's a Fusion Seal, they work backwards from ordinary Fusions (for some reason).I think you might be misunderstanding.
A) A Fusion Seal costs 110% of the MAXIMUM weapon it could affect. So if you buy the lowest level possible Fusion Seal (Level 2), it's going to cost 360*110% credits. It costs more than a normal Level 2 Fusion, not less.
B) In the Fusion Seals section it states "A fusion seal can't be added to a weapon if doing so would cause the weapon's total level of fusions (including the level of the fusion seal) to exceed the item level." Which means you can't add a level 2 Fusion Seal to a level 1 weapon. That would prevent it from being added to a Laser Rifle.
Hmm, looks like I was misunderstanding. Well, that changes things, the Merciful fusion is something I really don't want to compromise on (for flavor reasons-- Sarenrae is all about mercy and giving your enemies a chance to redeem themselves). I could still take -4 to make my laser rifle shots nonlethal, but with 3/4 BAB and only 14 DEX I wouldn't be hitting much at that point.
So that tips things back in the direction of the Flame Rifle. Petrol is going to be expensive but I'll just deal with it I guess. I do wish the Flame weapons gave more of a mechanical advantage to balance the very high operating cost but such is life.
Thanks for pointing out my error on fusions.
If you want a non lethal option the pulserifle is very good for the price. You can always take the -4 to do lethal if you run into something immune to nonlethal or switch to a backup.
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I agree with the issue on claiming day jobs will pay for ammo. That's money that could pay for anything, so you're still paying for stuff no one else has to. And if the weapon is something you use with any frequency, which since you took a feat for it I presume you are, you'll never pay for your ammo with that roll. I wouldn't bet on seeing petrol in a scenario more than once a blue moon either.
I didn't realize you where wanting to deal nonlethal, that's a completely reasonable choice and I can particularly get behind the RP behind it too. That is a bit of a shift in the equation. I'd still say that laser is typically a more advantageous weapon, but yes it's harder to fit automatic nonlethal on it until you hit level 5 and can get the next level of it.
I would like to ask before you make that decision to simply remember that only the last damage type matters. You could shoot someone with a "merciful" weapon all day, but if that last point of damage is from your soldier friend with a 1d3 flare then they are dead. So taking folk alive is a matter of timing not constant nonlethal attempts. You're best method for this in my opinion is to convince the rest of the party to help you take them alive. Possibly by pointing out how much you feel like healing them may depend on how many people they don't murderhobo.
Also, enemy EAC's are generally pretty low. You might make that -4 attempt more frequently than you think. And if not a dedicated weapon like a pulsecaster or arc riffle might be something to pull out when you think it's time for that last shot. It's also worth doing so you have a backup to deal with fire resistant foes. And worth noting that if you're fighting something with fire resistance, even if not all of the enemies have it that creature acts like a wall to the line of damage if you can't deal more than it has resistance and nothing on the other side takes damage either.
Whichever you choose, I wish you and your character luck.
You can't put a merciful fusion on a level 1 weapon as it is a level 2 fusion...You can if it's a Fusion Seal, they work backwards from ordinary Fusions (for some reason).I think you might be misunderstanding.
A) A Fusion Seal costs 110% of the MAXIMUM weapon it could affect. So if you buy the lowest level possible Fusion Seal (Level 2), it's going to cost 360*110% credits. It costs more than a normal Level 2 Fusion, not less.
B) In the Fusion Seals section it states "A fusion seal can't be added to a weapon if doing so would cause the weapon's total level of fusions (including the level of the fusion seal) to exceed the item level." Which means you can't add a level 2 Fusion Seal to a level 1 weapon. That would prevent it from being added to a Laser Rifle.
Hmm, looks like I was misunderstanding. Well, that changes things, the Merciful fusion is something I really don't want to compromise on (for flavor reasons-- Sarenrae is all about mercy and giving your enemies a chance to redeem themselves). I could still take -4 to make my laser rifle shots nonlethal, but with 3/4 BAB and only 14 DEX I wouldn't be hitting much at that point.
So that tips things back in the direction of the Flame Rifle. Petrol is going to be expensive but I'll just deal with it I guess. I do wish the Flame weapons gave more of a mechanical advantage to balance the very high operating cost but such is life.
Thanks for pointing out my error on fusions.
You are a mystic just stabilize targets that you or your party members knockout, there is your mercy.
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You are a mystic just stabilize targets that you or your party members knockout, there is your mercy.
Unfortunately that's not really an option. Per the rules if the NPC doesn't have resolve points(so by my understanding if it's not a big important NPC) then at 0 it dies. No delay, no leeway, just dead at that point. I believe the point of the rule change is less tracking for the GM, but it does present problems for the GM.
You might be able to convince the GM to use the option noted that gives you 3 rounds to stabilize, but that's table variation and you just can't rely on it.
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A side note that occurred to me based on another thread. If you stick with the flame rifle the bulk might be an issue. Each spare tank is 1 bulk and only holds 4 shots. So even counting the one loaded into your rifle and ignoring the bulk of the rifle you're looking at 2 bulk to hold 12 shots. 12 shots is what I think of as a dead minimum as ammo for a scenario. It's the point I'd be feeling antsy and wanting to restock on any other weapon. And to carry a safer 20 that's 4 bulk. That's 5 bulk counting the weapon, so if you're carrying anything else you're about to be overburdened without a boosted str score. Petrol weapons are both heavy and expensive.
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A side note that occurred to me based on another thread. If you stick with the flame rifle the bulk might be an issue. Each spare tank is 1 bulk and only holds 4 shots. So even counting the one loaded into your rifle and ignoring the bulk of the rifle you're looking at 2 bulk to hold 12 shots. 12 shots is what I think of as a dead minimum as ammo for a scenario. It's the point I'd be feeling antsy and wanting to restock on any other weapon. And to carry a safer 20 that's 4 bulk. That's 5 bulk counting the weapon, so if you're carrying anything else you're about to be overburdened without a boosted str score. Petrol weapons are both heavy and expensive.
Yes, I realized after posting this question that Petrol tanks are 1 bulk instead of Light or no bulk like all other ammo. It seems odd since the Flame Pistol uses a standard petrol tank but is only Light bulk. Can a petrol tank really be equally bulky as an entire rifle? I suspect it might be an error but who knows. I posted a separate thread about it in the Rules Questions forum: http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2up8i?Bulk-of-Petrol-Tanks
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That's, the thread that prompted me to mention bulk of course. I'm bad with names and that clearly carries into forums since I didn't notice you were the poster there. Sorry then.
I think it's a bit silly, and honestly probably an artifact of a designer that's a bit too in love with the tank/backpack style flamethrowers you see in games and media and started out the bulk accordingly. So while cryo guns require only power to produce a near limitless supply of hyper cooling fluid people who like flamethrowers must haul a giant pack of it. Silly and I'd be willing to wave it off in a home game, but I doubt they're going to change it up at this point. Which is the important point for society play.