"a +1 Trait Bonus on damage rolls"


Rules Questions


Specifically, the Vengeful Combat Trait for attacks that include multiple dice. Does this add a +1 Trait Bonus on every damage dice, or one per attack?

I read it as the former, since it addresses "damage rolls" rather than "attack actions".


Joshua029 wrote:

Specifically, the Vengeful Combat Trait for attacks that include multiple dice. Does this add a +1 Trait Bonus on every damage dice, or one per attack?

I read it as the former, since it addresses "damage rolls" rather than "attack actions".

It is once per attack. A damage roll is all of the dice and modifiers for that specific attack. You don't apply the effects of individual dice - you total all of them up first then apply as damage.


If you make a damage roll, the +1 bonus applies. No clauses about it applying to only one attack, which means it applies to every attack. **EDIT** My statement agrees with Jeraa though, in that each attack only ever has one damage roll, meaning rider effects (such as Shocking Grasp with Spellstrike) don't double-dip the trait benefit. **EDIT** (There should be one, though, because this sort of trait is pretty powerful, and I imagine if a feat was made with this in mind that it would be similarly nerfed.)

Regardless, I find that trait being confusing, to be honest, since "the last creature that damaged you within 24 hours" has multiple meanings, and if it means a creature that immediately damaged you, then it's almost too powerful for the given scope of what a trait is supposed to give you.


"Roll" is all the dice.

Effects that add a bonus to each die say so. For example, Fey Foundling's bonus to each die of magical healing you receive.


It's definitely just a +1 to damage not damage dice. If you roll 2d6, it's just 2d6+1.
I don't think it's too powerful. It's only +1 against the last creature that hit you. +1 damage isn't that big of a deal. At 1st or 2nd level, it's a little more significant, but it doesn't break the game.


Chuck Mount wrote:

It's definitely just a +1 to damage not damage dice. If you roll 2d6, it's just 2d6+1.

I don't think it's too powerful. It's only +1 against the last creature that hit you. +1 damage isn't that big of a deal. At 1st or 2nd level, it's a little more significant, but it doesn't break the game.

Eh, I suppose you're right. In most optimization cases and rocket tag, by the time you're hit, you're already down on resources, or dead.

I retract my initial statement of power then.


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I must be getting old. What's rocket tag?


Chuck Mount wrote:
I must be getting old. What's rocket tag?

Both you and your foes do SO much damage that whoever goes first will kill the other: literally like firing rockets at each other.


Ah. Thanks.


As an addendum to Rocket Tag: Damage might not even factor into the equation. Other things that are applicable to this terminology include Save/Die effects that have practically zero chance of survival, being able to summon/bring forth so many minions with such high power that no optimized person can deal with them, and they'd be overwhelmed by sheer numbers.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:


Regardless, I find that trait being confusing, to be honest, since "the last creature that damaged you within 24 hours" has multiple meanings,

I can think of only one possible valid interpretation: the creature that most recently damaged you. If you have not been damaged by a creature within 24 hours, there is no valid target.

What other possible meaning are you thinking of?


Take a given 24 hour period. If we went by the creature that last damaged you in that 24 hour period, it could mean a creature from (almost) yesterday that hit you, and based on the flavor text, it could certainly imply that, since that is also the "last" creature that damaged you in that time period.

It's easy to rule out, however, because it's fairly convoluted and results in some fairly weird rules interactions that are hard to quantify without some sort of written-down timeline, but the possibility is there for that interpretation, or perhaps some other one.


It literally says, last 24 hours. I don't know how else to interpret that. Take the current time and look back over the past 24 hours. The last guy that hit you in that time frame gets the +1 damage against it. As for the exact time, you can just "eyeball" it. The only thing you really need to keep track of is who the last guy that hit you is. In an ongoing combat with multiple people, that can possibly start to get a little confusing.


Pathfinder Companion, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Personally, I'm not a fan of traits that provide extra damage regardless of how they are worded. If the standard is trait == half a feat, then there really should be a +1 to ALL damage rolls to live up to the power of traits that really are half a feat (I know, it's a rule of thumb, not a true rule). Damage seems to command an extraordinarily high premium from traits, higher than skills, saves, and other bonuses.


@ Chuck Mount: The idea is that it's the last guy in relation to the tail-end of the 24 hours, not the last guy in relation to the beginning of the period, but as I've stated, that interpretation leads to making it much more complicated than it already is, so we might as well scrap it for simplicity purposes.

@ Taks: Weapon Specialization gives +2 for a specific weapon. The trait gives a +1 against a certain enemy that changes based on a specific condition.

As far as raw numbers is concerned, it's half a feat. As far as mechanics are concerned, it doesn't really match anything similar that I can tell, and that seems to be symptomatic of numerous traits in the game.

Which not only adds to their power significantly, but is also ironic since the original text regarding Trait design was so that it wasn't supposed to be used as some "backdoor" means of accruing bonuses or abilities, and yet that's exactly what has happened with a lot of traits.


I still don't see the confusion.

At midnight, A goblin hits you and runs away. For the rest of the night, you hunt for it and can't find it, but if you do, you have a +1 damage. You fall asleep and wake up late the next day. Still thinking about that goblin (because you're vengeful). Noon comes and goes and you're still angry about that goblin. Night falls and you go looking. You find it at 11:55pm. Right when you're ready to kill it with your +1 damage, a drunk guy stumbles out of the bar and punches you in the face. You forget about the goblin and now you hit that guy with +1 damage because he just became the last guy to hit you in the past 24 hours. Now, if that guy gets away, you wanna finish things with him until 11:55pm the next night or until somebody else hits you.

What's another interpretation? That's exactly as the rule reads. The last one to hit you in the last 24 hours. Not a 24 hour period.


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
As far as mechanics are concerned, it doesn't really match anything similar that I can tell, and that seems to be symptomatic of numerous traits in the game.

River Rat: "You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls with a dagger".


graystone wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
As far as mechanics are concerned, it doesn't really match anything similar that I can tell, and that seems to be symptomatic of numerous traits in the game.
River Rat: "You gain a +1 trait bonus on damage rolls with a dagger".

Also…

- Shield Bearer (race): +1 Trait Bonus to Damage with a Shield Bash.

- Quain Martial Artist (region): +1 Trait Bonus to Damage with an Unarmed Strike.

- Monk Weapon Skill (combat): +1 Trait Bonus to Damage with a any one Monk weapon other than Unarmed Strike.

- Weapon Training (race): +1 Trait Bonus to Damage with a Bastard Sword, Battleaxe, Greataxe, Greatsword, Handaxe, Light Hammer, Longbow, Longsword, Shortbow, Short Sword, Throwing Axe, and Warhammer.


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Chuck Mount wrote:
I must be getting old. What's rocket tag?

I'm glad you asked that question. I didn't know either. Kids and their new fangled way of talking. GET OFF MY LAWN! (throws d20s at them)


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
Chuck Mount wrote:
I must be getting old. What's rocket tag?
I'm glad you asked that question. I didn't know either. Kids and their new fangled way of talking. GET OFF MY LAWN! (throws d20s at them)

D20's? In my day all we had was d1's. We called them marbles.


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You had marbles? You were lucky. We had to steal ball bearings out of the asphalt melter when they put in the new interstate. I tell you what... Don't toss them things in yer pockets until you let 'em cool off!


Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
Take a given 24 hour period. If we went by the creature that last damaged you in that 24 hour period, it could mean a creature from (almost) yesterday that hit you, and based on the flavor text, it could certainly imply that, since that is also the "last" creature that damaged you in that time period.

Yes, that's exactly the same interpretation I already listed. You were suggesting there are other possible interpretations, but I'm just not understanding what they could possibly be?

Quote:
It's easy to rule out, however, because it's fairly convoluted and results in some fairly weird rules interactions that are hard to quantify without some sort of written-down timeline,

How is it convoluted? What weird rules interactions?

Yes, you need to keep track of the timeline, but that's hardly convoluted, and not without precedent in a game with other spells and effects that either last 24 hours or are once/day.


The actual trait says "last 24 hours". I think he's reading "24 hour period". Those are 2, subtly, different things. This trait just means you gain the bonus on the last person who hit you, but if you go for 24 hours without being hit, you lose the bonus until somebody else hits you.


DungeonmasterCal wrote:
I'm glad you asked that question.

It's become more popular since first person shooter games, like halo, have actual rocket launchers in the game you fire at each other. It's just transferring one game experience to another game.

DungeonmasterCal wrote:
(throws d20s at them)

Come over to my place. I could use more dice. ;)

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