paizo.com Recent Posts in Effective size increases FAQ clarificationpaizo.com Recent Posts in Effective size increases FAQ clarification2018-11-06T13:32:51Z2018-11-06T13:32:51ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationGisherhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#682017-10-24T01:38:30Z2017-10-24T01:38:30Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathmuse wrote:</div><blockquote>By the way, the instructions that accompany the chart do not always work. They say to take two steps along the chart for each step of size change. Thus, if we start with a medium longsword, 1d8, and shrink it to a small longsword, we step backwards twice from 1d8. That passes 1d6 and stops at 1d4. However, Table 6-4 Weapons says that a small longsword deals 1d6 damage. On the other hand, by Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage a large longsword would deal 2d6. That is two steps on the Damage Dice Progression Chart.</blockquote><p>The instructions do work correctly in this case. Here are the rules that Chemlak mentioned.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">FAQ wrote:</div><blockquote>• If the size decreases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and decrease the damage by two steps. <b>If the initial size is Medium or lower (or is treated as Medium or lower) or the initial damage is 1d8 or less, instead decrease the damage by one step.</b></blockquote><p>Your medium longsword satisfies this condition. So shrinking your longsword to small decreases your damage to 1d6 which is correct for a small longsword.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">FAQ wrote:</div><blockquote>• If the size increases by one step, look up the original damage on the chart and increase the damage by two steps. <b>If the initial size is Small or lower (or is treated as Small or lower) or the initial damage is 1d6 or less, instead increase the damage by one step.</b></blockquote><p>Your small longsword now meets this condition so increasing its size to medium increases the damage by one step back to 1d8.Mathmuse wrote:By the way, the instructions that accompany the chart do not always work. They say to take two steps along the chart for each step of size change. Thus, if we start with a medium longsword, 1d8, and shrink it to a small longsword, we step backwards twice from 1d8. That passes 1d6 and stops at 1d4. However, Table 6-4 Weapons says that a small longsword deals 1d6 damage. On the other hand, by Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage a large longsword would deal 2d6. That is two...Gisher2017-10-24T01:38:30ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationScott Wilhelmhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#672017-10-24T00:14:23Z2017-10-24T00:14:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathmuse wrote:</div><blockquote> The level progression is not a size progression</blockquote><p>This is the point I was making. The level progression of Monk Unarmed Strike Damage and Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage are not size progressions.
<p>Thanks for the FAQ link.</p>Mathmuse wrote:The level progression is not a size progression
This is the point I was making. The level progression of Monk Unarmed Strike Damage and Warpriest Sacred Weapon Damage are not size progressions. Thanks for the FAQ link.Scott Wilhelm2017-10-24T00:14:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationChemlakhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#662017-10-24T01:24:53Z2017-10-23T17:47:40Z<p>Just want to point out one thing about steps in the chart: when originally formulated, I noted a discontinuity moving up from 1d8 size medium (go two steps up above this point, not one), which has to be reversed moving down. PDT did incorporate this into the rules for the chart with the bit about only moving one step if the dice is 1d6 or size is small or lower, but it definitely works best for moving up in size and I’ve never found a good way of describing it moving down in size except to say “do the opposite”, which is a bit like saying “integration is the opposite of differentiation” and captures about the same amount of nuance.</p>Just want to point out one thing about steps in the chart: when originally formulated, I noted a discontinuity moving up from 1d8 size medium (go two steps up above this point, not one), which has to be reversed moving down. PDT did incorporate this into the rules for the chart with the bit about only moving one step if the dice is 1d6 or size is small or lower, but it definitely works best for moving up in size and I’ve never found a good way of describing it moving down in size except to...Chemlak2017-10-23T17:47:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationMathmusehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#652017-10-23T17:37:03Z2017-10-23T17:37:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Wilhelm wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Mathmuse wrote:</div><blockquote><p> When hyper analyzing, asking the correct question is critical. "Budging" is not a precise term. The precise question is, "Is the Damage Dice Progression Chart used for any weapon damage changes besides size increases and effective size increases?"</p>
<p>The answer is no. If an effect refers to moving up or down steps in that chart, then it is either a size change or an effective size change. The FAQ would have been clearer if Paizo had named the chart, "Damage Dice Progression Chart for Weapon Sizes."</blockquote>But Mathmuse, there is more than 1 Damage Dice Progression Chart.</blockquote><p>The chart actually named "Damage Dice Progression Chart" is located in the FAQ for the Core Rulebook at <a href="http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9t3f</a>, as the answer to a March 2015 question, "Size Changes, Effective Size Changes, and Damage Dice Progression: I'm confused by how to increase and decrease manufactured and natural weapon damage dice when the weapon's size or effective size changes. There's a bunch of different charts, and I'm not sure which to use." No other chart is called Damage Dice Progression Chart.
<p>There are three charts in the Core Rulebook itself that deal with weapon damage by size: page 58 has "Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage," pages 142 to 143 has "Table 6-4: Weapons," and page 145 has "Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage."</p>
<p>In table 6-4, a greataxe deals 1d10 if small and 1d12 if medium and a greatsword deals 1d10 if small and 2d6 if medium. In the Monk table, a 12th-level monk's unarmed strike deals 1d10 if small and 2d6 if medium, like the greatsword. This is not a contradiction, since a greataxe is not a greatsword is not a monk's unarmed strike. Different weapons don't have to follow the same progression by size.</p>
<p>Except Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage does state that different weapons follow the same progression by size at tiny and large sizes. Okay, we can resolve that contradiction by declaring that Pathfinder has more detail at Small and Medium, the typical sizes for player characters, and loses some detail at other sizes. We overly analytic people hate to lose detail, but compromises are sometimes necessary.</p>
<p>In the Core Rulebook, the tables cover everything (except tiny monks) with no contradiction, so a Damage Dice Progression Chart by Weapon Size was not necessary.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Wilhelm wrote:</div><blockquote> In the Core Rulebook, in the equipment section, there is a Damage Chart based on Weapon Size. It, combined with the reglular table of Weapons says that a a size medium Weapon that does 1d8 does 1d6 if downsized to Small, 1d4 if Sized down to Tiny, 2d6 if sized up to Large, and 3d6 if sized up to Huge. A weapon that does 1d10 at size medium does 2d8 when sized up to Large.</blockquote><p>None of those Core Rulebook tables describe huge weapons. A huge giant wields a huge weapon, but defining the damage for that weapon fell to the Bestiary entry for the giant. Yet sometimes GMs want to equip giants with other weapons. In addition, the Advanced Player's Guide introduced Lead Blades. A medium PC under Enlarge Person and Lead Blades will deal huge weapon damage. And some players created PCs of natural tiny or large sizes, so a size change for a PC could reach unfamiliar territory. We players needed ways to figure out the weapon damage for huge weapons, and we used the extrapolation that Scott Wilhelm used above.
<p>To clarify this method, the FAQ created the Damage Dice Progression Chart (for Weapon Sizes): 1, 1d2, 1d3, 1d4, 1d6, 1d8, 1d10, 2d6, 2d8, 3d6, 3d8, 4d6, 4d8, 6d6, 6d8, 8d6, 8d8, 12d6, 12d8, 16d6.</p>
<p>By the way, the instructions that accompany the chart do not always work. They say to take two steps along the chart for each step of size change. Thus, if we start with a medium longsword, 1d8, and shrink it to a small longsword, we step backwards twice from 1d8. That passes 1d6 and stops at 1d4. However, Table 6-4 Weapons says that a small longsword deals 1d6 damage. On the other hand, by Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage a large longsword would deal 2d6. That is two steps on the Damage Dice Progression Chart.</p>
<p>Maybe Small to Medium is one step and Medium to Large is two steps. Except by that logic, a medium 1d6 weapon would become a large 1d10 weapon by two steps on the Damage Dice Progression Chart, which disagrees with the large 2d6 weapon from the Table 6-5: Tiny and Large Weapon Damage.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Scott Wilhelm wrote:</div><blockquote> Monk Unarmed Strike Damage increases with level, but their damage does not increase according to this chart. A level 7 Monk does 1d8 with an Unarmed Strike. A level 8 Monk does 1d10. A Size Medium Longsword does 1d8. A Size Large Longsword does 2d6. Different progression, different chart: the increasing base damage for Monk Unarmed Strikes does constitute a Virtual Size increase per RAW, unless I'm missing something. </blockquote><p>Let me consolidate the monk's unarmed damage, because the Core Rulebook splits it among two charts. Sorry, this forum supports neither BBCode tables nor extra whitespace, so I could not align the columns.
<p>Level Small Medium Large
<br />
1st-3rd 1d4 1d6 1d8
<br />
4th-7th 1d6 1d8 2d6
<br />
8th-11th 1d8 1d10 2d8
<br />
12th-15th 1d10 2d6 3d6
<br />
16-19th 2d6 2d8 3d8
<br />
20th 2d8 2d10 4d8</p>
<p>Vertical movement in my chart is a level change and horizontal movement is a size change. Two different kinds of changes require a two-dimensional chart.</p>
<p>Imagine a 8th level medium monk. His ki-focus sai deals 1d10 damage, the same as his unarmed strike. His wizard friend casts Enlarge Person on him, so his 1d10 sai grows to 2d8 by the monk chart. This monk is also a ranger and casts Lead Blades. That goes beyond the monk chart, so we use the Damage Dice Progression Chart. Two steps from 2d8 is 3d8, so his sai now deals 3d8.</p>
<p>The level progression is not a size progression, so from the point of view of the size rules, the base weapon damage of the ki-focus sai is 1d10 and then two size changes are applied. The change from a 1d6 ki-focus sai in the hands of a 1st-level monk to the 1d10 ki-focus sai in the hands of a 8th-level monk does not involve the Damage Dice Progression Chart at all, despite the medium monk's level progression using the same list of dice, except for the 2d10 at the end.</p>Scott Wilhelm wrote:Mathmuse wrote:When hyper analyzing, asking the correct question is critical. "Budging" is not a precise term. The precise question is, "Is the Damage Dice Progression Chart used for any weapon damage changes besides size increases and effective size increases?"
The answer is no. If an effect refers to moving up or down steps in that chart, then it is either a size change or an effective size change. The FAQ would have been clearer if Paizo had named the chart, "Damage...Mathmuse2017-10-23T17:37:03ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationGrandloungehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#642017-10-23T14:16:47Z2017-10-23T14:16:47Z<p>I think there is a faq or forum post explaining carry, equipped, held etc that I have seen reference though I can't find it at the moment.</p>I think there is a faq or forum post explaining carry, equipped, held etc that I have seen reference though I can't find it at the moment.Grandlounge2017-10-23T14:16:47ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationScott Wilhelmhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#632017-10-23T10:46:58Z2017-10-23T10:46:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> Scott Wilhelm: I read carrying in this instance as "on your person". Your unarmed strikes are with you and in your possession. The fact that you can't drop them shouldn't invalidate the spell IMO. </blockquote><p>I also don't think that they put the word "carry" in there just to disqualify Monk Unarmed Strikes from benefiting from Lead Blades.
<p>But I (of all people) can't dismiss the literal wording.</p>
<p>It might make a good FAQ: For the purposes of Spells and Effects, do you "carry" Unarmed Strikes?</p>
<p>Although I don't know how frequently this question is asked.</p>graystone wrote:Scott Wilhelm: I read carrying in this instance as "on your person". Your unarmed strikes are with you and in your possession. The fact that you can't drop them shouldn't invalidate the spell IMO.
I also don't think that they put the word "carry" in there just to disqualify Monk Unarmed Strikes from benefiting from Lead Blades. But I (of all people) can't dismiss the literal wording.
It might make a good FAQ: For the purposes of Spells and Effects, do you "carry" Unarmed...Scott Wilhelm2017-10-23T10:46:58ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationTrinitysEndhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#622017-10-23T04:06:41Z2017-10-23T04:06:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> I know that's what you were trying to say. It's still irrelevant in this case because there's nothing that states other effects besides creature size can improve Sacred Weapon/Unarmed Strike damage, which means there's no reason to mention Polymorph rules when there's nothing in those features to suggest a similar paradigm being referenced.</blockquote><p>The point was to just say that not everything helpful makes all other helpful choices also work. Nothing more, I wasn't comparing rule sets or anything like that. Simply showing that not every beneficial thing helps in every other beneficial situation. So, no it's not irrelevant. It was to explain how sometimes some beneficial things just don't work with other beneficial things.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote>With that point, I'm saying that the mention of Warpriest size shouldn't be the <b>only</b> determining factor of how Sacred Weapon damage is calculated, which you're trying to say it is, and Lead Blades grants that alternative compared to other similar effects that could (Impact), but can't due to how it's applied (to the weapon and not the creature wielding a weapon, which is crucial due to how Sacred Weapon functions). </blockquote><p>Again, I've explained how Sacred Damage decides the damage (based on Warpriest size). So Lead Blades, which no one is arguing doesn't target self, affects you. Now, we read the effects "All melee weapons you are carrying when the spell is cast deal damage as if one size category larger than they actually are." Okay, so now we know that it affects you by altering the weapons you are carrying. So we look at that 1d4 dagger. It now goes to 1d6. You then swing with the dagger and hit. You check your size at this point. It is determined that you are medium sized. You look at the chart on Warpriest that says you do (We'll say a level 5 Warpriest) 1d8 with Sacred Damage. The weapon may be considered Large sized for the purpose of damage, but you are not. You are still considered medium sized for all purposes. Thus you deal 1d8+proper modifiers.Darksol the Painbringer wrote:I know that's what you were trying to say. It's still irrelevant in this case because there's nothing that states other effects besides creature size can improve Sacred Weapon/Unarmed Strike damage, which means there's no reason to mention Polymorph rules when there's nothing in those features to suggest a similar paradigm being referenced.
The point was to just say that not everything helpful makes all other helpful choices also work. Nothing more, I wasn't...TrinitysEnd2017-10-23T04:06:41ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationDarksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#612017-10-23T02:16:38Z2017-10-23T02:16:38Z<p>I know that's what you were trying to say. It's still irrelevant in this case because there's nothing that states other effects besides creature size can improve Sacred Weapon/Unarmed Strike damage, which means there's no reason to mention Polymorph rules when there's nothing in those features to suggest a similar paradigm being referenced.</p>
<p>With that point, I'm saying that the mention of Warpriest size shouldn't be the <b>only</b> determining factor of how Sacred Weapon damage is calculated, which you're trying to say it is, and Lead Blades grants that alternative compared to other similar effects that could (Impact), but can't due to how it's applied (to the weapon and not the creature wielding a weapon, which is crucial due to how Sacred Weapon functions).</p>I know that's what you were trying to say. It's still irrelevant in this case because there's nothing that states other effects besides creature size can improve Sacred Weapon/Unarmed Strike damage, which means there's no reason to mention Polymorph rules when there's nothing in those features to suggest a similar paradigm being referenced.
With that point, I'm saying that the mention of Warpriest size shouldn't be the only determining factor of how Sacred Weapon damage is calculated, which...Darksol the Painbringer2017-10-23T02:16:38ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#602017-10-23T02:10:40Z2017-10-23T02:10:40Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TrinitysEnd wrote:</div><blockquote>To me, it makes it clear this isn't a size change, yes.</blockquote><p>LOL If only you where the person I had to worry about. I'm worried about what the Dev's will say. For me, having the class charts go up in steps is close enough for me to be unsure.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">TrinitysEnd wrote:</div><blockquote>Stonefist Gloves link</blockquote><p>They wouldn't work with a monk... SO? Someone with the improved unarmed strike feat get the boost and even the monk gets the harness 8 bypass. For me, it doesn't seem to be a game changing point in this argument as it has clear benefits to monks and non-monks.TrinitysEnd wrote:To me, it makes it clear this isn't a size change, yes.
LOL If only you where the person I had to worry about. I'm worried about what the Dev's will say. For me, having the class charts go up in steps is close enough for me to be unsure. TrinitysEnd wrote:Stonefist Gloves link
They wouldn't work with a monk... SO? Someone with the improved unarmed strike feat get the boost and even the monk gets the harness 8 bypass. For me, it doesn't seem to be a game changing point in...graystone2017-10-23T02:10:40ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationTrinitysEndhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#592017-10-23T02:01:54Z2017-10-23T02:01:54Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> TrinitysEnd: The abilities both say they increase/deals more damage and their charts show an increase of dice in a similar way steps do. So is the lack of the word step enough when it gives a chart that shows the damage going up is in steps? </blockquote><p>To me, it makes it clear this isn't a size change, yes. At no point does it suggest in it's wording that it is a size increase. Merely that the chart has a similar growth is not enough to say it is a size increase.
<p><a href="http://www.archivesofnethys.com/MagicWondrousDisplay.aspx?FinalName=Stonefist%20Gloves" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Also if it was a size increase, these gloves wouldn't work either.</a> Which, sure, that could be the case, but that seems rather silly (Now these gloves have other issues, such as being horribly underpriced, but that's another story).</p>graystone wrote:TrinitysEnd: The abilities both say they increase/deals more damage and their charts show an increase of dice in a similar way steps do. So is the lack of the word step enough when it gives a chart that shows the damage going up is in steps?
To me, it makes it clear this isn't a size change, yes. At no point does it suggest in it's wording that it is a size increase. Merely that the chart has a similar growth is not enough to say it is a size increase. Also if it was a size...TrinitysEnd2017-10-23T02:01:54ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#582017-10-23T01:54:31Z2017-10-23T01:54:31Z<p>TrinitysEnd: The abilities both say they increase/deals more damage and their charts show an increase of dice in a similar way steps do. So is the lack of the word step enough when it gives a chart that shows the damage going up is in steps?</p>TrinitysEnd: The abilities both say they increase/deals more damage and their charts show an increase of dice in a similar way steps do. So is the lack of the word step enough when it gives a chart that shows the damage going up is in steps?graystone2017-10-23T01:54:31ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationTrinitysEndhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#572017-10-23T01:53:33Z2017-10-23T01:53:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">TrinitysEnd wrote:</div><blockquote>Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to also help you.</blockquote><p>Polymorph rules and effects tell you the things you lose and the things you keep. And even so, Polymorph rules aren't applicable in the case of Lead Blades, because it's not a Polymorph spell, so all of those things are irrelevant.
<p>Also, just because the Damage Dice features mention your size doesn't mean they can't also be altered by effective size bonuses as well. The big thing is <b>how</b> those effective bonuses are applied, which is why Impact wouldn't work, but why Lead Blades would.</blockquote><p>I was using that as a direct example how not all things that help you allow you to use everything else to help you. Taking it out of context and arguing a different thing than I am saying doesn't make a lot of sense. I could also say how Weapon Focus Natural Attacks (ex. Gore, claws, etc) doesn't help you if you don't have natural attacks or etc.
<p>I do not understand what you are trying to say with this point here. I think you are saying just because Warpriest damage dice state it's based on your size that it isn't actually based on your size?</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:TrinitysEnd wrote:Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to also help you.
Polymorph rules and effects tell you the things you lose and the things you keep. And even so, Polymorph rules aren't applicable in the case of Lead Blades, because it's not a Polymorph spell, so all of those things are irrelevant. Also, just because the Damage Dice features...TrinitysEnd2017-10-23T01:53:33ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationDarksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#562017-10-23T01:48:04Z2017-10-23T01:48:04Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">TrinitysEnd wrote:</div><blockquote>Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to also help you.</blockquote><p>Polymorph rules and effects tell you the things you lose and the things you keep. And even so, Polymorph rules aren't applicable in the case of Lead Blades, because it's not a Polymorph spell, so all of those things are irrelevant.
<p>Also, just because the Damage Dice features mention your size doesn't mean they can't also be altered by effective size bonuses as well. The big thing is <b>how</b> those effective bonuses are applied, which is why Impact wouldn't work, but why Lead Blades would.</p>
<p>@ Scott Wilhelm: How does the Unarmed Strike feature have an issue that the Sacred Weapon feature doesn't? They both function identically in my eyes, so I don't see the problem.</p>
<p>As for the Lead Blades issue, I suppose the same can be said for other weapons that aren't in-hand, such as Barbazu Beards, Boot Blades, and other unorthodox non-handed weapons, but I highly doubt the intent of the spell was to not work with certain weapons, or it would have spelled them out too (as is the case with the projectile/thrown weapons clause).</p>TrinitysEnd wrote:Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to also help you.
Polymorph rules and effects tell you the things you lose and the things you keep. And even so, Polymorph rules aren't applicable in the case of Lead Blades, because it's not a Polymorph spell, so all of those things are irrelevant. Also, just because the Damage Dice features mention your size doesn't mean...Darksol the Painbringer2017-10-23T01:48:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationTrinitysEndhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#552017-10-23T01:44:14Z2017-10-23T01:44:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote>TrinitysEnd: "just happens to follow the same chart as size increases do" sounds a LOT like "and similar language". When the FAQ allows similar things, it's not strange to wonder about similar things... </blockquote><p>I agree similar things is vague. But it lacks wording similar to "your dice increase by one step". Instead, they are just replacing the damage.
<p>Monk:
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Monk Unarmed Strike wrote:</div><blockquote>A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on Table: Monk. The unarmed damage values listed on Table: Monk is for Medium monks. A Small monk deals less damage than the amount given there with his unarmed attacks, while a Large monk deals more damage; see Small or Large Monk Unarmed Damage on the table given below.</blockquote><p>I see no language similar to the two examples.
<p>Warpriest:
<br />
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Warpriest Sacred Weapon wrote:</div><blockquote>Whenever the warpriest hits with his sacred weapon, the weapon damage is based on his level and not the weapon type. The damage for Medium warpriests is listed on Table 1–14; see the table below for Small and Large warpriests. The warpriest can decide to use the weapon’s base damage instead of the sacred weapon damage—this must be declared before the attack roll is made. (If the weapon’s base damage exceeds the sacred weapon damage, its damage is unchanged.) This increase in damage does not affect any other aspect of the weapon, and doesn’t apply to alchemical items, bombs, or other weapons that only deal energy damage.</blockquote><p>I again see no language similar to the two examples.graystone wrote:TrinitysEnd: "just happens to follow the same chart as size increases do" sounds a LOT like "and similar language". When the FAQ allows similar things, it's not strange to wonder about similar things...
I agree similar things is vague. But it lacks wording similar to "your dice increase by one step". Instead, they are just replacing the damage. Monk:
Monk Unarmed Strike wrote:A monk also deals more damage with his unarmed strikes than a normal person would, as shown above on...TrinitysEnd2017-10-23T01:44:14ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationgraystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#542017-10-23T01:29:04Z2017-10-23T01:29:04Z<p>Scott Wilhelm: I read carrying in this instance as "on your person". Your unarmed strikes are with you and in your possession. The fact that you can't drop them shouldn't invalidate the spell IMO.</p>
<p>TrinitysEnd: "just happens to follow the same chart as size increases do" sounds a LOT like "and similar language". When the FAQ allows similar things, it's not strange to wonder about similar things...</p>Scott Wilhelm: I read carrying in this instance as "on your person". Your unarmed strikes are with you and in your possession. The fact that you can't drop them shouldn't invalidate the spell IMO.
TrinitysEnd: "just happens to follow the same chart as size increases do" sounds a LOT like "and similar language". When the FAQ allows similar things, it's not strange to wonder about similar things...graystone2017-10-23T01:29:04ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationTrinitysEndhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#532017-10-23T01:21:23Z2017-10-23T01:21:23Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">BigNorseWolf wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Then use the Medium Sized Warpriest damage..... as a base. It doesn't say that that's all you'll ever use or do it. </p>
<p>Also something to consider is that sacred weapon is supposed to be an ability. Its supposed to be something that helps you, a lot. It really isn't doing that if it shuts off all these other abilities. </blockquote><p>Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to also help you.
<p>Anyways, I've argued my point and you are free to ignore it or not, but that is you choice.</p>
<p>Back on topic, WP and Monk increases are not size increases and thus aren't affected by the size increasing FAQ. They are their own thing that just happens to follow the same chart as size increases do.</p>BigNorseWolf wrote:Then use the Medium Sized Warpriest damage..... as a base. It doesn't say that that's all you'll ever use or do it.
Also something to consider is that sacred weapon is supposed to be an ability. Its supposed to be something that helps you, a lot. It really isn't doing that if it shuts off all these other abilities.
Polymorph is also supposed to help you, but you lose a lot of other things. It's not mutually exclusive that one thing that helps you allows other things to...TrinitysEnd2017-10-23T01:21:23ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationScott Wilhelmhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#522017-10-23T01:04:18Z2017-10-23T01:04:18Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> @ Scott Wilhelm: The argument still holds true if we used Lead Blades on a Monk, since their Unarmed Strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons for the purposes of spells and effects that target them. So saying that Strong Jaw works while Lead Blades is sketchy just doesn't add up. </blockquote><p>Your Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Manufactured Weapons for Spells like Lead Blades. And Monk Unarmed Strikes do not have the problem that Sacred Weapon has.
<p>But Lead Blades does still have a problem vis a vis MUS. Someone mentioned this to me, and I never had a good counter argument to it.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Lead Blades wrote:</div><blockquote>All melee weapons you are carrying</blockquote><p>And you don't exactly carry your Unarmed Strikes, do you?Darksol the Painbringer wrote:@ Scott Wilhelm: The argument still holds true if we used Lead Blades on a Monk, since their Unarmed Strikes count as both natural and manufactured weapons for the purposes of spells and effects that target them. So saying that Strong Jaw works while Lead Blades is sketchy just doesn't add up.
Your Monk Unarmed Strikes count as Manufactured Weapons for Spells like Lead Blades. And Monk Unarmed Strikes do not have the problem that Sacred Weapon has. But Lead...Scott Wilhelm2017-10-23T01:04:18ZRe: Forums: Rules Questions: Effective size increases FAQ clarificationBigNorseWolfhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uogz&page=2?Effective-size-increases-FAQ-clarification#512017-10-23T00:55:01Z2017-10-23T00:55:01Z<p>Then use the Medium Sized Warpriest damage..... as a base. It doesn't say that that's all you'll ever use or do it. </p>
<p>Also something to consider is that sacred weapon is supposed to be an ability. Its supposed to be something that helps you, a lot. It really isn't doing that if it shuts off all these other abilities.</p>Then use the Medium Sized Warpriest damage..... as a base. It doesn't say that that's all you'll ever use or do it.
Also something to consider is that sacred weapon is supposed to be an ability. Its supposed to be something that helps you, a lot. It really isn't doing that if it shuts off all these other abilities.BigNorseWolf2017-10-23T00:55:01Z