reloading two-handed firearms without Musket Master


Advice


I want to build a Gun Tank, and I want him primarily use two-handed firearms. Preferably a blunderbuss. A dorf riot control officer scuttling around like a crab with a shotgun, if you will. Problem is, the Musket Master archetype doesn't stack, since it loses Gunslinger's Dodge as well. I asked my DM to make an exception, told me no.

So, the crux of the question is: is there a way to reload a two-handed firearms faster than a move action without needing to take Musket Master? It's been almost four years since ultimate combat dropped, surely something has come out to help deal with it.


And for the record, this is under the assumption that advanced firearms aren't used.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I guess technically Empty Quiver Flurry feat, essentially gun-fu, but the requirements are very intense to say the least and gunslinger don't really get bonus feats...so that would be hard to achieve.


With Paizo, not really, no. But there are some ways to "cheat" the system.

There is the spell, Reloading Hands, that gives you 1 free reload a round. But it is short duration and Dwarves don't like UMD :(

You can also use the Lightning reload deed you get at 11th to get 1 additional free reload each round, but it is a far off option.

Another one, however you won't like this one, and that is to go 4 levels in alchemist and pick up the Explosive Missile discovery. That would allow you to load-and-fire any firearm as a Standard action. And add your bomb to the shot to boot. But, well, 4 level dip :/

No, what you really want to do is ask your GM to allow you to take Path of War.
Specifically the Mystic and the Gunsmoke Mystic.
That will solve all your problems, ever.

Note that even just a 1 lvl dip in Gunsmoke Mystic is insanely frontloaded and overpowered from a balance perspective. Its like the conversation with the devs went something like this;
Dev: It seems that no one is playing the Gunslinger. Why is that?
Response: Because there are limitations preventing it from being too powerful.
D: Limitations? Then remove them. All of them.
R: But Sir...
D: All. Of. Them. >:(

And that was that. Gunsmoke removes practically every single limitation that firearms have at lvl 1, so its a great dip for any gunslinger build, if it is allowed, and it will serve your purposes nicely.
Plus maneuvers :/


well there is an item that would give you a swift reload each round. its called a beneficial bandolier

Beneficial Bandolier
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 211 (Amazon)
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot belt; Price 1,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This bandolier is made of finely tanned leather. It has slots for up to 200 rounds of ammunition. Pellets and black powder are kept in tiny individual pouches, and bullets in small loops. The bandolier alters itself as needed to accommodate both. There are also places on the beneficial bandolier for a gunsmith’s kit and a powder horn. Regardless of what quantities of these items are placed within the beneficial bandolier, its weight does not change.

As a swift action, the wearer can command a single round of ammunition from the beneficial bandolier to teleport into a firearm of the appropriate type that he is wielding.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 500 gp


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens Subscriber

Multiple guns and Quick Draw (not technically reloading, but...).
Spend a feat to get a multiclassed (at level 7) Gunner Squire/Weapon Bearer Squire cohort and hand off guns to him.
Combat Stamina trick with Rapid Reload.


There's the Shadowshooting weapon enchantment. Make sure you get some sort of bonus damage in case you find you're stuck doing minimum damage. Actually that'd be more useful for riot control than a standard blunderbuss come to think of it.


Why not just dip a single level of Fighter for your Heavy Armour Prof, and/or go Fighter from level 6 once you have Dex to damage? Seems to net you the main wins from Gun Tank. If you want the Crit immunity, take a level of Dual-Cursed Oracle and the Misfortune Revelation, now you're giving the Crit immunity to everyone in the group.


Gobo Horde wrote:

With Paizo, not really, no. But there are some ways to "cheat" the system.

There is the spell, Reloading Hands, that gives you 1 free reload a round. But it is short duration and Dwarves don't like UMD :(

You can also use the Lightning reload deed you get at 11th to get 1 additional free reload each round, but it is a far off option.

Another one, however you won't like this one, and that is to go 4 levels in alchemist and pick up the Explosive Missile discovery. That would allow you to load-and-fire any firearm as a Standard action. And add your bomb to the shot to boot. But, well, 4 level dip :/

No, what you really want to do is ask your GM to allow you to take Path of War.
Specifically the Mystic and the Gunsmoke Mystic.
That will solve all your problems, ever.

Note that even just a 1 lvl dip in Gunsmoke Mystic is insanely frontloaded and overpowered from a balance perspective. Its like the conversation with the devs went something like this;
Dev: It seems that no one is playing the Gunslinger. Why is that?
Response: Because there are limitations preventing it from being too powerful.
D: Limitations? Then remove them. All of them.
R: But Sir...
D: All. Of. Them. >:(

And that was that. Gunsmoke removes practically every single limitation that firearms have at lvl 1, so its a great dip for any gunslinger build, if it is allowed, and it will serve your purposes nicely.
Plus maneuvers :/

You're right, I don't like it. I'd much rather have a straight slinger.

Conjoy, same as above. I don't want to be a fighter, I want to be a gunslinger.


LoudKid wrote:
Multiple guns and Quick Draw (not technically reloading, but...).

That is how my gunslinging bloodrager NPC handles it in my Iron Gods campaign. She has the pistol she made herself at 5th level, the laser pistol she acquired at 7th level, and the firedrake pistol she acquired at 10th level. But holstering her empty gun before drawing another takes a move action.

However, the solution used by the dwarven gunslinger PC in my game is probably of more interest to Spermy The Cat. That gunslinger takes only one shot per turn, with either her original blunderbus or her +1 autograpnel (another technological weapon like the laser pistol).

She is not interested in damage. Instead, she used the autograpnel and the 7th-level Targeting deed for battlefield control to protect the party and debuff enemies. Targeting require a full-round action, so on her next turn she moves and reloads.

Rapid fire is not the only way to play a gunslinger. I feel that too many gunslinger builds are trying to mimic longbow archers.


If you want single class Gunslinger, then it sounds like you'll need to divert feats into armour profs to get it done.

(As in: go Musket, buy armour feats for tank aspect.)


Mathmuse wrote:
Rapid fire is not the only way to play a gunslinger. I feel that too many gunslinger builds are trying to mimic longbow archers.

My favorite "style" of gunslinger is the grumpy ol coot with a long-rifle who is always complaining about the kids on his lawn.

He wields a musket, or a rifle if he can get his hands on it, later taking the Bullseye Shot, then Vital Strike to give him a real sniper-like feel. However, I went with a Gun Scavenger/Experemental Gunsmith archetype, not Musket Master, to play up the characters eccentricness.
I remember the first few levels being extremely tough just trying to manage reloads and misfires. I had to fire very expensive bullets that misfired on a 4 or worse, then spend a full-round action just to clear them, then reload again after that. Sometimes it felt like I did nothing at all for 2-3 rounds and my damage was very inconsistent and less then the melee guys by a fair bit.

Non-rapid fire, non-one-handed gunslinging can be tough to make viable.


You know, I've always wanted to make a vital strike build. Maybe I can do that with this guy, but with a scattershot.


Although that shadowshooting thing avr mentioned would be neat, since it'd let me fire with a tower shield.

I'll have to think some more on this, thank you all very much for your help.


Dwarftr wrote:

well there is an item that would give you a swift reload each round. its called a beneficial bandolier

Beneficial Bandolier
Source Ultimate Equipment pg. 211 (Amazon)
Aura moderate transmutation; CL 9th
Slot belt; Price 1,000 gp; Weight 2 lbs.
Description
This bandolier is made of finely tanned leather. It has slots for up to 200 rounds of ammunition. Pellets and black powder are kept in tiny individual pouches, and bullets in small loops. The bandolier alters itself as needed to accommodate both. There are also places on the beneficial bandolier for a gunsmith’s kit and a powder horn. Regardless of what quantities of these items are placed within the beneficial bandolier, its weight does not change.

As a swift action, the wearer can command a single round of ammunition from the beneficial bandolier to teleport into a firearm of the appropriate type that he is wielding.
Construction
Requirements Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 500 gp

+1. This is a nice and simple thing to slap on to any build. It's also pretty cheap which is nice.


Put the Pistol of the Infinite Sky enchantment on a musket.

Quote:

PISTOL OF THE INFINITE SKY

Price 73,300 gp; Aura strong conjuration; CL 15th; Weight 4 lbs.
An infinity symbol is engraved on both sides of this +5 pistol's mother of pearl grip, and the barrel is adorned with gold depicting the moon, planets, and stars against a night sky of the pistol's cold black steel. This pistol never needs to be reloaded. After one shot is fired, a bullet and powder magically appear in the chamber. This ammunition never suffers a misfire.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS

Cost 37,300 gp
Craft Magic Arms and Armor, reloading hands


Explosive Missile only works on one-handed firearms.

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