Class's Weapon Specialization only apply to class's proficiency weapons?


Rules Questions

Lantern Lodge

All classes gain the Weapon Specialization feat at lv 3.

WEAPON SPECIALIZATION (EX) 3RD LEVEL
You gain Weapon Specialization as a bonus feat for each weapon type this class grants you proficiency with.

Does this means that say a technomancer with the Longarms Proficiency won't get Weapon Specialization with longarms, unless he send another feat to get Weapon Specialization (longarms)?


Yep. Or versatile specialization.

Dark Archive

Yes this is my understanding. So to get the Max out of a non class weapon you need two feats


Yes, the class granted ability only applies to proficiencies granted by the class.

And yes, there is some debate about it but it seems you don't need weapon spec feat, you can instead grab versatile specialization. I say there is debate because it is questioned whether or not granted weapon proficiency counts as a feat or not to qualify for versatile specialization.


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No discussion needed. The text of each 3rd level ability states "You gain the Weapon specialization as a bonus feat..."

Versatile Specialization only requires proficiency in a weapon, not the appropriate Weapon proficiency feat.

Claxon wrote:

Yes, the class granted ability only applies to proficiencies granted by the class.

And yes, there is some debate about it but it seems you don't need weapon spec feat, you can instead grab versatile specialization. I say there is debate because it is questioned whether or not granted weapon proficiency counts as a feat or not to qualify for versatile specialization.

Grand Lodge

There is at least some room for discussion :). Page 59 in the Classes section says each class gets it "as per the feat". Specific trumps general so I would agree with you RAW it says each individual class gets the Feat itself, but the rules are conflicting in different places and the intention of the rule seems to be in the other direction.

There was also a post some time ago that Versatile was designed when classes weren't granted the feat, which meant it was a two-feat investment to get Specialization in all weapons. Again, nothing official from errata but worth considering.


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Claxon wrote:

Yes, the class granted ability only applies to proficiencies granted by the class.

And yes, there is some debate about it but it seems you don't need weapon spec feat, you can instead grab versatile specialization. I say there is debate because it is questioned whether or not granted weapon proficiency counts as a feat or not to qualify for versatile specialization.

Eh? The only prereqs for Versatile Specialization are 3rd level and Weapon Specialization. Every class grants the weapon specialization feats (and specifically the feat) for their base weapons. So everyone automatically qualifies for versatile specialization once they hit 3rd level.

And since weapon specialization is automatically being granted for the weapon categories the classes start out with, the only thing versatile specialization would ever apply to is weapons you took the weapon proficiency feat for.

There isn't any discussion to be had.


There is some discussion to be had in the sense that why would you bother with the Weapon Specialization feat, when if every class automatically qualifies for Versatile Specialization at 3rd level there would be no point in ever actually taking Weapon Spec.

But whomever pointed out I was incorrect on the prereq was correct, I was going off of memory and I was wrong.


Voss wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Yes, the class granted ability only applies to proficiencies granted by the class.

And yes, there is some debate about it but it seems you don't need weapon spec feat, you can instead grab versatile specialization. I say there is debate because it is questioned whether or not granted weapon proficiency counts as a feat or not to qualify for versatile specialization.

Eh? The only prereqs for Versatile Specialization are 3rd level and Weapon Specialization. Every class grants the weapon specialization feats (and specifically the feat) for their base weapons. So everyone automatically qualifies for versatile specialization once they hit 3rd level.

And since weapon specialization is automatically being granted for the weapon categories the classes start out with, the only thing versatile specialization would ever apply to is weapons you took the weapon proficiency feat for.

There isn't any discussion to be had.

This is not correct. Multiclass characters may have weapons they are not normally specialized in, but did not take the proficiency feat for.


Claxon wrote:
There is some discussion to be had in the sense that why would you bother with the Weapon Specialization feat, when if every class automatically qualifies for Versatile Specialization at 3rd level there would be no point in ever actually taking Weapon Spec.

I'm not sure why that question really matters though? Yes, Versatile Spec is meant to be an upgrade over Weapon spec, so when you already get weapon spec as a bonus feat you don't need to take it a second time. So?

In practice it doesn't even really matter, since you're not likely to even want to take the feat multiple times in the first place. So all such a change would even do is mildly annoy mechanics who take heavy weapon proficiency.


I mean, it's relevant to my Technomancer. I'm going to take Longarms proficiency and Weapon Spec/Versatility. If I was interested in Heavy Weapons, it would mean taking another feat to gain weapon spec damage with Heavy Weapons unless I qualify for Weapon Versatility by the class granted Weapon Spec feat.


Is there any reason to not take Versatile Specialization at 3rd or 5th level if you plan on using weapons not given as part of your class?

I realize there is the weird case of multiclassing for 1 or 2 levels and having those not be part of the given weapon spec.

Dark Archive

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Weapon specialization exists for drones. They can take it, and don't get it free


EC Gamer Guy wrote:

Is there any reason to not take Versatile Specialization at 3rd or 5th level if you plan on using weapons not given as part of your class?

I realize there is the weird case of multiclassing for 1 or 2 levels and having those not be part of the given weapon spec.

I am far more intrigued with the effect of Multiclassing and getting Weapon Specialization from two different classes at level 6, and what this would mean for classes that share some proficiencies. Would they stack? or just overlap? I assume overlap, Paizo isn't nearly as stupid or fun as to make them stack. At least I hope not XD


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Name Violation wrote:
Weapon specialization exists for drones. They can take it, and don't get it free

Not true. Drones get weapon specialization for free at level 3 like everyone else. Weapon specialization exists as a feat, so the authors didn't have to reprint the weapon specialization text for every class they printed. And maybe a bit of future proofing.

Starfinder Core Rulebook wrote:


Your drone is proficient in your choice of small arms or basic
melee weapons, and it gains specialization in that weapon type
once you reach 3rd level.


EC Gamer Guy wrote:

Is there any reason to not take Versatile Specialization at 3rd or 5th level if you plan on using weapons not given as part of your class?

I realize there is the weird case of multiclassing for 1 or 2 levels and having those not be part of the given weapon spec.

That's what I was trying to point out. There is literally no reason for the feat Weapon Spec to exist (as long as Weapon Versatility exists) unless they only made it to save on formatting and space in the class entry. Of course, they could have just included that under the weapon for rules and said that if your class is proficient with a weapon you are granted a damage bonus with those weapons at 3rd level.

So it raises the question, unless that is the reason why does it exist? Which makes me question whether or not the class granted weapon spec qualifies you for weapon versatility.


You could be playing a Solider 1 / Solarian 2 and want to get +3 damage.


@Claxon

Knight Magenta wrote:
You could be playing a Solider 1 / Solarian 2 and want to get +3 damage.

This character would have to either get another level in Solarion to receive the bonus feats or buy Weapon Specialization for advanced melee weapons if he want the specialization for his Solar Weapon. It's a good example.

Funny thing, if you have Versatile Specialization you are also specialized in weapons you create with Fabricate Tech. Since the feat states "You gain specialization in all weapons with which you are proficient..." and not "... in all weapon types with which you are proficient...".


What about the Dwarven racial trait, Weapon Familiarity. As written, it says, "Dwarves are proficient with basic and advanced melee weapons and gain specialization with those weapons at 3rd level." It seems like the intent behind that trait is to allow all dwarves to treat melee weapons as class weapons, but it doesn't explicitly say that specialization is a bonus feat like it does in the class descriptions.

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

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It calls out that dwarves gain specialization with the weapons at 3rd level. The race grants it to you, becasue the class doesn't.

Liberty's Edge

Claxon wrote:
So it raises the question, unless that is the reason why does it exist? Which makes me question whether or not the class granted weapon spec qualifies you for weapon versatility.

It is clear that class granted weapon specialized qualifies you for weapon versatility. Owen has posted in this thread. If that was not case, he would have said so.

A reason for the existence of weapon specialization is for characters who want to gain the benefits of it without taking a 3 level dip in a class that would grant the weapon proficiency. It also makes it handy to point to from the class prospective.

Rest assured that at 3rd level, when your character becomes specialized in their class granted weapons (except for grenades), they also become eligible for weapon versatility.

It is very straight forward.


Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
It calls out that dwarves gain specialization with the weapons at 3rd level. The race grants it to you, becasue the class doesn't.

Yes, that's what I said. Let me reparse, because I guess the question wasn't as clear as I thought it was. Does the Dwarf gain the specializations as a bonus feat, or just a racial trait?

An Envoy, Mechanic, Mystic or Technomancer, which only gain proficiency in Basic Melee and Small Arms (and grenades for some, but there si no specialization for grenades), wouldn't qualify for Adaptive Fighting at level 3 unless they had taken another combat feat at level 1. A Dwarven character, however, would also be proficient with Advanced Melee weapons and gain specialization with them at level three. The class descriptions explicitly state that specialization in Basic Melee and Small Arms at level 3 are bonus feats. The description of the Dwarven racial trait Weapon Familiarity does not describe either the proficiencies or specializations in Basic and Advanced Melee weapons as feats. By the letter of the rules as written, Dwarven Envoys/Mechanics/Mystics/Technomancers don't automatically have 3 bonus combat feats at level 3, but should this be taken as an intentional distinction or an oversight in the description of Weapon Familiarity?


Weapon Specialization is a feat. Why is it important for the racial ability to spell out that the feat they call out by name is a feat?


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Dracomicron wrote:

Weapon Specialization is a feat. Why is it important for the racial ability to spell out that the feat they call out by name is a feat?

To determine if it fulfills a prerequisite.

It seams to be the consensus that proficiency granted by class is not a feat, it's just a class feature; while specialization that is granted by class is a bonus feat that is granted as part of a class feature. This has been discussed in the context of whether or not the specializations you automatically get at level 3 count as a prerequisite for Versatile Specialization or Adaptive Fighting. The consensus seems to be that the proficiencies do not count as feats towards prerequisites because they are not explicitly described as such, but the specializations do, because they are specifically described as bonus feats.

Dwarven Weapon Familiarity is not important for Versatile Specialization because it is agreed that everyone qualifies for that at level 3 by virtue of one specialization bonus feat. But you need 3 combat feats as a prerequisite to Adaptive Fighting, so whether or not a Dwarf's specialization with Advanced Melee weapons is a bonus feat grated by a racial trait or just a racial trait will effect whether or not a Dwarven Envoy, for example, could take Adaptive fighting at level 3 (if they didn't already take an additional combat feat as their level 1 feat).

Is it clear now why I am posing the question?


I am very interested in this question as well. Similarly to dwarves, it says Vesk get specialization in their natural weapons at 3rd level. I'm multiclassing at level 2 into a different class, meaning I won't get specialization from my main class until level 4 (not the point of this post). So I'm wondering, would my natural weapon specialization meet the requirement of having the weapon specialization feat for versatile specialization? I think that it should, due to the similarity of the language in the racial trait description and each class' level 3 specialization feature.

Scarab Sages Starfinder Design Lead

If it doesn't say it's a feat, don't assume you can use it as a feat for prerequisites.

For a home game, your GM can happily change that without breaking anything.


Okay. I'd rather stick to the rules in case the GM rotates. I don't want to have to rejigger the character for different house rules, so thanks for the official ruling.


Agreed, thank you Owen.

Liberty's Edge

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:
If it doesn't say it's a feat, don't assume you can use it as a feat for prerequisites.

Ok so this is a little different than how I was understanding it. Thank you for the clarification.

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