paizo.com Recent Posts in How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?paizo.com Recent Posts in How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?2017-10-15T23:27:02Z2017-10-15T23:27:02ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Sara Mariehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3322017-10-17T19:22:02Z2017-10-16T19:26:10Z<p><span class=messageboard-ooc>Removed some posts and replies. When debating rules and gameplay on our forums, you need to remain polite and respectful of other community members. If you do not wish to engage in a specific discussion in good faith or if you feel someone else is not engaging in good faith, move along to another thread or create your own. If you choose to engage, you need to do so in a manner that helps maintain a friendly and welcoming environment for our community. </span></p>Removed some posts and replies. When debating rules and gameplay on our forums, you need to remain polite and respectful of other community members. If you do not wish to engage in a specific discussion in good faith or if you feel someone else is not engaging in good faith, move along to another thread or create your own. If you choose to engage, you need to do so in a manner that helps maintain a friendly and welcoming environment for our community.Sara Marie2017-10-16T19:26:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3312017-10-16T19:02:48Z2017-10-16T19:02:05Z<p>Chess Pwn: Okie dokie. We seem to have read cellion post differently. However, I think that even it modifying the existing character, it'd be relevant.
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Crossbow Training adds dex damage [not replace].
<br />
Empty Quiver Style allows melee attacks if crossbow was a heavy mace
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Empty Quiver Flexibility allows ranged abilities to work in melee attack.</p>
<p>The crossbow would still deal str damage [as a heavy mace], and he could 2 hand it, so that +4 str from rage could add 2 or 3 damage.</p>Chess Pwn: Okie dokie. We seem to have read cellion post differently. However, I think that even it modifying the existing character, it'd be relevant.
Crossbow Training adds dex damage [not replace].
Empty Quiver Style allows melee attacks if crossbow was a heavy mace
Empty Quiver Flexibility allows ranged abilities to work in melee attack.
The crossbow would still deal str damage [as a heavy mace], and he could 2 hand it, so that +4 str from rage could add 2 or 3 damage.graystone2017-10-16T19:02:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Chess Pwnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3302017-10-16T18:20:13Z2017-10-16T18:20:13Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chess Pwn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost. </blockquote>Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. </blockquote>His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str. </blockquote><p>I thought we were talking about alternate builds and not his current one. A build that gets a strength boost might not require spending the resources on empty quiver and could therefore spend that resource on being more effective in ranged combat.
<p>The challenge was "Must be able to deal with close quarters combat solo" not 'be as effective in close quarters as ranged'. </blockquote><p>I think the current part is options for his current guy, which is to retrain slayer to urban barb.
<p>For a full character yeah, there's lots of options, and if I'm mistaken about what the current then your advice is good. </p>
<p>But I believe cellion was saying how to help him currently where urban barb was mentioned, and then c durgon threw in that getting a dex mutagen could help, (though at only 10 per level it depends on the campaign how often that could be up before fights)</p>graystone wrote:Chess Pwn wrote: graystone wrote: Chromantic Durgon Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.
Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str. I thought we were talking about alternate builds and not his current...Chess Pwn2017-10-16T18:20:13ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3292017-10-16T18:19:13Z2017-10-16T18:14:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chess Pwn wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost. </blockquote>Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. </blockquote>His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str. </blockquote><p>I thought we were talking about alternate builds and not his current one. A build that gets a strength boost might not require spending the resources on empty quiver and could therefore spend that resource on being more effective in ranged combat.
<p>The challenge was "Must be able to deal with close quarters combat solo" not 'be as effective in close quarters as ranged'.</p>Chess Pwn wrote:graystone wrote: Chromantic Durgon Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.
Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str. I thought we were talking about alternate builds and not his current one. A build that...graystone2017-10-16T18:14:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Chess Pwnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3282017-10-16T17:42:41Z2017-10-16T17:42:41Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">graystone wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost. </blockquote>Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. </blockquote><p>His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str.graystone wrote:Chromantic Durgon Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.
Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must. His current character is already quite invested and thus able to use his dex for hitting and damage already for switch hitting, He really is non reliant on str.Chess Pwn2017-10-16T17:42:41ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3272017-10-16T17:22:10Z2017-10-16T17:22:10Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:</div><blockquote> Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost. </blockquote><p>Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must.Chromantic Durgon Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.
Savage Technologist works as a substitute for Urban barbarian and the strength boost helps if switch hitting is a must.graystone2017-10-16T17:22:10ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Chromantic Durgon <3https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3262017-10-16T16:56:43Z2017-10-16T16:56:43Z<p>Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.</p>Mutagen mauler is another potentially interesting avenue for a Dex boost.Chromantic Durgon <32017-10-16T16:56:43ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Cellionhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3252017-10-17T14:05:24Z2017-10-16T15:36:03Z<p>Hi Darksol, I see there's been a lot of heated discussion, so I thought I'd throw out a quick bulleted summary of some issues/solutions now that we see your problem better:
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<li> You're short on attack roll bonuses by <b>about +7</b> vs. where your build could have been in a more typical campaign. Part of this is also due to your GM imposing house rules and buffing monster ACs to compensate for your extra player. Based on your earlier numbers, monsters have 4 more AC than they should have. You're lacking a DEX belt. You aren't allowed to pick up weapon focus. Your multiclass combination lacks an easy way to increase your attack rolls (w/o 7 levels of slayer the studied target action economy is not great). Most of these things are things you cannot change.
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<li> Going crossbow means no manyshot, and manyshot is one of the primary ways that bow damage scaling gets out of hand (an extra full bab attack at no penalty is no joke). Correcting your build's DPR (including point blank, removing manyshot) leaves you at 20.38 DPR with an attack roll of +11/+11/+6. This assumes you aren't using your studied target, and assumes monster AC of 24, like before.
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<li> Right now, I'd focus on bringing that attack roll up. Based on the calcs, each +1 to your attack rolls is worth 3x as much as +1 to your damage rolls. A DEX belt is a no-brainer (+20% DPR), but its tough to get much else. Going first allows you to sneak attack a target (assuming they are flatfooted in round 1) and then apply studied target to them for an additional +1/+1 as an immediate action (for another +20% DPR on subsequent rounds). Therefore, Improved Initiative might be a worthwhile option.
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<li> Although I hate to say it, retraining slayer levels is by far the most attractive option. The Urban barbarian offered by Jurassic Pratt above gets access to more dex and retains good action economy. Add in the reckless abandon rage power to further increase your accuracy (the penalty to AC will hopefully be mitigated by being further away from the action). The rage bonus + the reckless abandon bonus bring you from 20.38 DPR to 33.11 DPR.
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<li> When attempting to execute a less optimized build like this one, it is important to stay focused. You want to make sure your primary fighting style is working well before trying to make a secondary style functional.</p>Hi Darksol, I see there's been a lot of heated discussion, so I thought I'd throw out a quick bulleted summary of some issues/solutions now that we see your problem better:
You're short on attack roll bonuses by about +7 vs. where your build could have been in a more typical campaign. Part of this is also due to your GM imposing house rules and buffing monster ACs to compensate for your extra player. Based on your earlier numbers, monsters have 4 more AC than they should have. You're lacking...Cellion2017-10-16T15:36:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?The Raven Blackhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3242017-10-16T09:14:59Z2017-10-16T09:14:59Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote><br />
<br />
<p>•• spoiler omitted ••... @ The Raven Black: Hide
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I'm curious how you could stay mounted in a lot of the winding halls and such that were present in that AP, which would make bringing a mount into certain areas impossible. Most of books 1 and 2 had winding halls and caverns, whereas the book we're currently in has less of them (though it still has its fair share). Were you small-sized, or was there some other sorcery at work?</blockquote><p>You are right that my PC was at his most awesome when he was outside cramped quarters. Though other PCs insisted on being in harm's way even in the rather open field of a small town, which was a bit unnerving, especially at low levels with no Mount yet to quickly escape.
<p>My archer had an OK CON but a rather low AC, making him something of a glass cannon.</p>
<p>We had two or three front liners which prevented most enemies from being able to reach him.</p>
<p>And when it was unfeasible to shoot, he would switch to his sword (thanks to having an OK Strength).</p>
<p>Of course, the Favored Enemy bonuses helped a lot with those Goblins, Ogres and Giants.</p>
<p>It was rare though that my PC could not make a 5ft step out of a threatened square and shoot without provoking as we cleared an area completely before exploring a new one, which greatly reduced the occurrence of having no space to maneuver out of reach.</p>
<p>And before 6th level (when he got Improved Precise Shot), he would still shoot, even if there was little chance to hit, rather than spend the whole round delaying.</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:** spoiler omitted **... @ The Raven Black: Hide
I'm curious how you could stay mounted in a lot of the winding halls and such that were present in that AP, which would make bringing a mount into certain areas impossible. Most of books 1 and 2 had winding halls and caverns, whereas the book we're currently in has less of them (though it still has its fair share). Were you small-sized, or was there some other sorcery at work?
You are right that my PC was at his...The Raven Black2017-10-16T09:14:59ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3232017-10-16T00:52:25Z2017-10-16T00:52:25Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Chess Pwn wrote:</div><blockquote>the gap between thrown and bows doesn't make thrown options not viable. </blockquote><p>The gap between thrown and ranged has shrunk a bit with the ammo FAQ. Not needing to make sure each and every piece of ammo has the correct enchant bonus and/or material is a huge boon now. Add to that sharding and the new improvised options and even returning/ricochet/blinkback isn't a requirement anymore.Chess Pwn wrote:the gap between thrown and bows doesn't make thrown options not viable.
The gap between thrown and ranged has shrunk a bit with the ammo FAQ. Not needing to make sure each and every piece of ammo has the correct enchant bonus and/or material is a huge boon now. Add to that sharding and the new improvised options and even returning/ricochet/blinkback isn't a requirement anymore.graystone2017-10-16T00:52:25ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3222017-10-16T00:47:41Z2017-10-16T00:41:07Z<p>There are probably more classes/archetypes of classes that make throwing work (as in "be a viable option for someone playing that class") than there are that make blasting (as in expending spell slots to deal damage) work.</p>
<p>But if someone shows up and says "how can blasting be viable in Pathfinder" we'll accept answers like "Crossblooded sorcerer orc/dragon bloodline 1, Wizard/19, Admixture Evocation specialist" or "The Arcanist can be good at this" or "Have you considered the Kineticist? It's not a spellcaster but it kind of does this." We'll also consider "the Bloodrager is never going to be a decent blaster" to be a thing not worth quibbling about.</p>
<p>Sure, the power threshold for "average fighter" is a lot lower than "average wizard" but you knew that when you picked your class.</p>There are probably more classes/archetypes of classes that make throwing work (as in "be a viable option for someone playing that class") than there are that make blasting (as in expending spell slots to deal damage) work.
But if someone shows up and says "how can blasting be viable in Pathfinder" we'll accept answers like "Crossblooded sorcerer orc/dragon bloodline 1, Wizard/19, Admixture Evocation specialist" or "The Arcanist can be good at this" or "Have you considered the Kineticist?...PossibleCabbage2017-10-16T00:41:07ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Chess Pwnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3212017-10-16T05:28:57Z2017-10-16T00:15:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> For Unarmed/Armed, there are numerous classes with archetypes that can make it work; Enlightened Paladins, Brawlers, Monks, Warpriests, even Ninjas can make it viable...And plenty of other classes and archetypes that I can't think of off the top of my head. While a disparity does exist in this case due to simple outscaling, the gap between this and weapons usable at a range is significantly less, and doesn't make the Unarmed options not viable. </blockquote><p>Ah but you see, using your logic from earlier, the fact that it's so limited makes it a MONK STYLE and not a universal style.
</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote>What's the point of referencing it being ranged combat when there's no point in anybody other than that class going that style of combat? You might as well just make it exclusive to Fighters because that sounds like it's the only class that would make use of it. </blockquote><p>becuase there are classes that make thrown work, high level vigilante, fighters and classes that pretend to be fighters like WP, Magus and anyone that takes the pretend to be a fighter feat. Just like the monk and brawler and a few archetypes that pretend to be monks do for unarmed. Plus their star toss style that can do interesting things too. While the disparity with bows still exists due to simple outscaling, the gap between thrown and bows doesn't make thrown options not viable.Darksol the Painbringer wrote:For Unarmed/Armed, there are numerous classes with archetypes that can make it work; Enlightened Paladins, Brawlers, Monks, Warpriests, even Ninjas can make it viable...And plenty of other classes and archetypes that I can't think of off the top of my head. While a disparity does exist in this case due to simple outscaling, the gap between this and weapons usable at a range is significantly less, and doesn't make the Unarmed options not viable.
Ah but you see,...Chess Pwn2017-10-16T00:15:47ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?graystonehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3202017-10-16T17:08:24Z2017-10-15T23:44:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Mbertorch wrote:</div><blockquote> What about the launching crossbow with splash weapons and Int to damage? Super specific and probably garbage, but could it work? I'm asking anyone at this point, since this thread seems to be filled with people knowledgeable about ranged tactics. </blockquote><p>I've done this with a alchemist with Toxicant to add int damage poison + conditions and Full Pouch for an infinite supply of DC boosted alchemical weapons. Adding Focusing Flask's into the mix adds +2 dice and +4 DC to attacks. [best to make your own]Mbertorch wrote:What about the launching crossbow with splash weapons and Int to damage? Super specific and probably garbage, but could it work? I'm asking anyone at this point, since this thread seems to be filled with people knowledgeable about ranged tactics.
I've done this with a alchemist with Toxicant to add int damage poison + conditions and Full Pouch for an infinite supply of DC boosted alchemical weapons. Adding Focusing Flask's into the mix adds +2 dice and +4 DC to attacks. [best...graystone2017-10-15T23:44:42ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Mbertorchhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3192017-10-15T23:19:43Z2017-10-15T23:19:43Z<p>What about the launching crossbow with splash weapons and Int to damage? Super specific and probably garbage, but could it work? I'm asking anyone at this point, since this thread seems to be filled with people knowledgeable about ranged tactics.</p>What about the launching crossbow with splash weapons and Int to damage? Super specific and probably garbage, but could it work? I'm asking anyone at this point, since this thread seems to be filled with people knowledgeable about ranged tactics.Mbertorch2017-10-15T23:19:43ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Gausshttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3182017-10-16T02:29:57Z2017-10-15T23:17:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote><p> If they aren't supposed to be for ranged combat like bows are, then what are they there for? To provide some trap options to fulfill some arbitrary "trap option quota" that the PDT feels has to be there to challenge the optimizers that play the game? Because that's really what you've demonstrated to me thus far, and if that's the case, then there never really could have been such a thing as "ranged combat" to begin with because it was never a niche that was created except in our own (or rather, my own) preconceived notion(s). Archery was created as a niche, not ranged combat.
</p>
So, I will now mandate all mentions of "Ranged Combat" to be changed to "Archery," otherwise I will refer to such people as heretics having badwrongfun and creating rules that were clearly not meant to exist.</p>
<p>As for melee, as you've stated prior, there is a lot more agnosticism to their design. You don't have to use a specific weapon or select a specific set of feats to make them work, and even if you do, there are a lot of different weapons that can cover the options you're looking for, instead of being restricted to a single weapon. Seriously, when Ranged Com-I mean, Archery, has only one good option, and the rest being absolute crap, whereas melee has numerous good options that fill multiple niches of multiple build choices, this just tells me that weapons used at a range are designed poorly, whereas melee weapons have much better design and thought put into their creation.</p>
<p>For Unarmed/Armed, there are numerous classes with archetypes that can make it work; Enlightened Paladins, Brawlers, Monks, Warpriests, even Ninjas can make it viable...And plenty of other classes and archetypes that I can't think of off the top of my head. While a disparity does exist in this case due to simple outscaling, the gap between this and weapons usable at a range is significantly less, and doesn't make the Unarmed options not viable.</p>
<p>For Simple/Martial, there are comparable options between them. Longspear is by and large one of the most popular and mainstream reach weapons in the game, beating out typical Martial reach weapons for its palatable application, and Exotic reach weapons are usually gated by a feat that many would find undeserving of expenditure. Either way, a choice between a Simple/Martial weapon won't make a big difference 90% of the time, which is about the difference between Martial/Exotic weaponry, and in that case the power gap is at an appropriate level.</p>
<p>Size doesn't really matter except in the case of acquiring loot that you can't technically wear by default (Small equipment for Medium characters, and vice-versa), as there have been numerous builds that demonstrated appropriately-sized weaponry making little to no difference except in the most extreme of circumstances (such as Size-abusing Vital Strike builds compared to Tiny-sized static bonus-abusing builds), and even then it's been proven that full attacks (even with Tiny size static bonus cheesing), in a general sense, are still superior, making size of little to no consequence in the grand scheme of killing things.</p>
<p>Compare that to every single Archery option in existence, and it's more akin to the Caster/Martial Disparity than any other weapon or combat style that ever existed in the game. </blockquote><p>I think you are missing the point.
<p>Not all weapons are created equal.
<br />
Crossbows are simple weapons, they are there to give people who have low strength or no martial proficiency an ranged attack option where melee is not an option. </p>
<p>Thus, we get the following:
<br />
If you only have simple weapon proficiency and good strength (+2 and greater), you generally use a sling.
<br />
If you only have simple weapon proficiency and poor strength (+1 or less), you generally use a crossbow.
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If you have martial weapon proficiency and poor strength (less than +0), you use a crossbow.
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If you have martial weapon proficiency and good strength (+0 or greater), you use a bow.
<br />
(The above assumes you can afford a bow or crossbow, I usually start with a sling at first level with my martial builds.)</p>
<p>So, now we have weapons which are generally bad weapons to use, but are options for people who are unable to use the better weapon, a bow. </p>
<p>Then, Paizo makes archetypes that are built around a 'bad option'. Bolt Ace is one such example. It is built around crossbows which are generally a bad idea.</p>
<p>Bolt Ace turns crossbow use from a bad idea to a passable idea but only because of the dex to damage feature.
<br />
But, now you have ran into it's major drawback, it's inability to gain Manyshot and either Point Blank Master or Improved Precise Shot (before level 11). As a result it suffers for a long time.
<br />
Multiclassing doesn't generally help as that still delays your entry into either PBM (to level 9) or IPS (to level 11). </p>
<p>Just because archetypes are built around a weapon or other game feature does not make that archetype a good one.
<br />
In fact, I would say that about half of all the archetypes in the game are rarely used, if ever, because they are simply bad options. </p>
<p>In short, Crossbows and Slings are <b>usually</b> only an option until someone gets something better, or if they are limited in their weapon choices.</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:If they aren't supposed to be for ranged combat like bows are, then what are they there for? To provide some trap options to fulfill some arbitrary "trap option quota" that the PDT feels has to be there to challenge the optimizers that play the game? Because that's really what you've demonstrated to me thus far, and if that's the case, then there never really could have been such a thing as "ranged combat" to begin with because it was never a niche that was...Gauss2017-10-15T23:17:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Darksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3172017-10-15T23:27:02Z2017-10-15T22:17:32Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>[Spoiler omitted]
[Spoiler omitted]Darksol the Painbringer2017-10-15T22:17:32ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3162017-10-15T20:06:47Z2017-10-15T20:06:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Jurassic Pratt wrote:</div><blockquote>This is actually a really good idea. Do the same build I posted with a light crossbow instead and you could take clustered shots in place of Crossbow Mastery. </blockquote><p>Yeah, +1 damage and +40 feet of range might be worth a feat when you've run out of important feats to take (something it takes fighters well into their career to do), but Crossbow Mastery is generally a bad idea on the front end unless you're trying to cheese something with the Minotaur Double Crossbow from that one book that doesn't have the clause that prevents reloading it from being a free action.Jurassic Pratt wrote:This is actually a really good idea. Do the same build I posted with a light crossbow instead and you could take clustered shots in place of Crossbow Mastery.
Yeah, +1 damage and +40 feet of range might be worth a feat when you've run out of important feats to take (something it takes fighters well into their career to do), but Crossbow Mastery is generally a bad idea on the front end unless you're trying to cheese something with the Minotaur Double Crossbow from that...PossibleCabbage2017-10-15T20:06:47ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Jurassic Pratthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3152017-10-15T19:47:46Z2017-10-15T19:47:46Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">PossibleCabbage wrote:</div><blockquote> Unless you want the really extreme range increment (which it seems like you don't) the heavy crossbow is kind of a trap. Versus the light crossbow it's +1 average damage, and +40 feet of range, and two extra feats to make a free action reload. Rapid shot you'll probably take anyway, but if you go a light crossbow you can give up a bit of range and 1 damage and skip crossbow mastery entirely. </blockquote><p>This is actually a really good idea. Do the same build I posted with a light crossbow instead and you could take clustered shots in place of Crossbow Mastery.PossibleCabbage wrote:Unless you want the really extreme range increment (which it seems like you don't) the heavy crossbow is kind of a trap. Versus the light crossbow it's +1 average damage, and +40 feet of range, and two extra feats to make a free action reload. Rapid shot you'll probably take anyway, but if you go a light crossbow you can give up a bit of range and 1 damage and skip crossbow mastery entirely.
This is actually a really good idea. Do the same build I posted with a light...Jurassic Pratt2017-10-15T19:47:46ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Chess Pwnhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3142019-03-15T01:02:15Z2017-10-15T19:47:24Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> To clarify, it's not that I think bows are bad (at this point anyway), it's that they're overrated/overpowered, and I really think it's unhealthy to make them a standard when everything else similar to its intended function (throwing and other projectile weapons) are trash in comparison. In short, it's the Bow/Ranged Combat disparity (and yes, I mean Bow and Ranged Combat as being two separate entities), and I'd rather not support the concept of yet another major disparity existing in this game.</blockquote><p>See, this is where you're missing the point, thrown and crossbows AREN'T meant to fill the same role as the bow.
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Thrown was designed/meant to be something that a melee guy does maybe if he can't reach his opponent but wants to move in at low levels or for your surprise round action to get an attack off before you can move in and attack.
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Like seriously, you're throwing your weapon away, and the weapons have low range, this obviously wasn't intended to be a primary combat style that scales and stays competitive with bows.</p>
<p>slings are a free option meant as a way to ensure that all characters have a way to attack at the earliest of levels. Just grab some cloth and a rock off the ground and look now you can attack!</p>
<p>Crossbows as well are clearly able to be seen as not supposed to be considered a primary weapon, they take longer to reload and can't do as much bamage of a bow. they are something given to wizards meant as a back-up option for the wizard when unlimited cantrips weren't a thing and now as an alternative to cantrips. </p>
<p>these weapons aren't meant to be a primary weapon and thus aren't as good as the primary weapons. </p>
<p>again, look at melee, Where are your complaints that unarmed/armed disparity exists? Where are your complaints that the simple/martial disparity exists? Where are your complaints that the small/medium disparity exists?</p>
<p>Slings, thrown weapons and crossbows are to bows as what unarmed attacks, cestus and clubs are to falcata, falcions, and greatswords. Things that have a niche as a backup weapon for early levels that maybe with lots of investment and perhaps need certain specific class, can be made into an okay combat style. </p>
<p>Like this whole idea comes down to the SKR comment about water balloons as weapons. D&D and pathfinder due to inheritance had set ways to play the game. Ranged was to be done with a bow and the crossbow is inherently worse of a weapon than the bow (actual comment from him, a former DEV of the game). And then he said, in an alternate game all the weapons could be just as good, meaning a crossbowman will be as good as a bow user and a water balloon thrower can be just as good as well, since it's all just ranged attacks and a different flavor given to how the weapon looks, but that that's not the path that Pathfinder decided to go down. Pathfinder decided to say that your idea of creating a crossbow king would be harder and worse than creating a bow king because they wanted some weapons to be actually inferior options to other weapons.</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:To clarify, it's not that I think bows are bad (at this point anyway), it's that they're overrated/overpowered, and I really think it's unhealthy to make them a standard when everything else similar to its intended function (throwing and other projectile weapons) are trash in comparison. In short, it's the Bow/Ranged Combat disparity (and yes, I mean Bow and Ranged Combat as being two separate entities), and I'd rather not support the concept of yet another major...Chess Pwn2017-10-15T19:47:24ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?PossibleCabbagehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3132017-10-15T20:05:12Z2017-10-15T17:15:11Z<p>Unless you want the really extreme range increment (which it seems like you don't) the heavy crossbow is kind of a trap. Versus the light crossbow it's +1 average damage, and +40 feet of range, and two extra feats to make a free action reload. Rapid shot you'll probably take anyway, but if you go a light crossbow you can give up a bit of range and 1 damage and skip crossbow mastery entirely.</p>Unless you want the really extreme range increment (which it seems like you don't) the heavy crossbow is kind of a trap. Versus the light crossbow it's +1 average damage, and +40 feet of range, and two extra feats to make a free action reload. Rapid shot you'll probably take anyway, but if you go a light crossbow you can give up a bit of range and 1 damage and skip crossbow mastery entirely.PossibleCabbage2017-10-15T17:15:11ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Jurassic Pratthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3122017-10-16T13:44:38Z2017-10-15T15:52:41Z<p>Darksol, pretty sure you didn't specify a point buy amount. The only thing I saw close to that was an RP limit on races. I went with 20 because that seems to be what most people play with in my experience.</p>
<p>Regardless, just lowering wisdom to 14 fixes the issue. You're not using grit that often on a bolt ace anyway. I'm honestly rather dissapoijted that your whole response to an effective crossbow build being presented was just "the pointbuy is too high".</p>Darksol, pretty sure you didn't specify a point buy amount. The only thing I saw close to that was an RP limit on races. I went with 20 because that seems to be what most people play with in my experience.
Regardless, just lowering wisdom to 14 fixes the issue. You're not using grit that often on a bolt ace anyway. I'm honestly rather dissapoijted that your whole response to an effective crossbow build being presented was just "the pointbuy is too high".Jurassic Pratt2017-10-15T15:52:41ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Darksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3112017-10-15T15:13:06Z2017-10-15T15:13:06Z<p>My mistake, it was <a href="http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Crossbow%20Mastery" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Crossbow Mastery</a>.</p>My mistake, it was Crossbow Mastery.Darksol the Painbringer2017-10-15T15:13:06ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Mbertorchhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3102017-10-15T14:48:14Z2017-10-15T14:48:14Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Darksol the Painbringer wrote:</div><blockquote> •• spoiler omitted ••... </blockquote><p>http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rapid%20Reload
<p>http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rapid-reload-combat/</p>
<p>I don't think Rapid Reload does require Rapid Shot... at least, not to acquire it. Maybe to make really effective use of it though.</p>Darksol the Painbringer wrote:** spoiler omitted **...
http://archivesofnethys.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Rapid%20Reload http://www.d20pfsrd.com/feats/combat-feats/rapid-reload-combat/
I don't think Rapid Reload does require Rapid Shot... at least, not to acquire it. Maybe to make really effective use of it though.Mbertorch2017-10-15T14:48:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Darksol the Painbringerhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3092017-10-15T14:28:59Z2017-10-15T14:28:22Z<p>[Spoiler omitted]</p>
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[Spoiler omitted]Darksol the Painbringer2017-10-15T14:28:22ZRe: Forums: Advice: How can Ranged Combat even be feasible?Mathmusehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs2unt6&page=7?How-can-Ranged-Combat-even-be-feasible#3082017-10-15T12:39:05Z2017-10-15T12:39:05Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">dysartes wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Gauss wrote:</div><blockquote> Lets identify the problem: You are either shooting through cover OR you are taking an AoO when shooting. </blockquote><p>Isn't the answer to the first one a class feature - <i>Shooter's Resolve</i>? I appreciate it is a Deed, and therefore Grit management is an issue, but ignoring cover and concealment (unless the total version of either) when you need to for 1 Grit seems handy.
<p>As an aside, I see a lot of people saying to drop Gunslinger/Bolt Ace at level 5 - are the level 7 deeds for either not as good as they appear? <i>Targeting</i> alone seems to make it worthwhile. </blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Gauss wrote:</div><blockquote><p> No, Shooter's Resolve is not the answer, it is in fact almost completely useless. </p>
<p>Almost every ranged combat build requires full attacks for its DPR.
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Shooter's Resolve negates that by requiring a standard action. </blockquote><p>The math is that cover provides a +2 or +4 to AC and partial concealment provides a 20% miss chance. The Bolt Ace has a better chance of hitting by shooting two bolts against cover or concealment rather than shooting one bolt while ignoring cover or concealment. Except when the GM raises the AC of the opponent so high that an extra +2 to AC would make it almost impossible to hit.
<p>If Darksol had not invested in Crossbow Mastery, then loading a heavy crossbow would take a move action and shooting would be a standard action and Shooter's Resolve requiring a standard action would be no problem. But he did invest.</p>
<p>Rapid Reload and Crossbow Mastery are the fastest way to massive damage with a crossbow. However, the grit pool can't keep up with the pace of shooting, and one-shot-per-turn deeds are too slow compared to a full attack. The pair of feats don't mix well with the Bolt Aces's class abilities. This weakens the class and forces Darksol to spend more feats to correct the weaknesses. I prefer a slow-firing build that maximizes the class abilities, but I am in a tiny minority.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">wraithstrike wrote:</div><blockquote>No, it's(targeting) not good enough for a two level wait. It's nice, but it is not that good. It is circumstantial because most of the time the gunslinger is better off just killing whatever he is fighting.</blockquote><p>My wife's gunslinger's favorite deed is Targeting. However, she plays a battlefield control gunslinger rather than a high-damage gunslinger. She took the Experimental Gunsmith archetype that trades away Gun Training, which almost everyone here will say was a terrible choice, but it works for her gadgeteer character.
<p>The higher levels of Nimble also gave her gunslinger the highest AC and touch AC in the party.</p>
<p>Nevertheless, these are minor benefits. More deeds and more gun training at higher levels don't help much because deeds are limited by a grit pool that does not grow with level, and a gunslinger typically relies on a single weapon. And other martial classes offer bonus feats as good as Gunslinger(Bolt Ace)'s bonus feats.</p>dysartes wrote:Gauss wrote: Lets identify the problem: You are either shooting through cover OR you are taking an AoO when shooting.
Isn't the answer to the first one a class feature - Shooter's Resolve? I appreciate it is a Deed, and therefore Grit management is an issue, but ignoring cover and concealment (unless the total version of either) when you need to for 1 Grit seems handy. As an aside, I see a lot of people saying to drop Gunslinger/Bolt Ace at level 5 - are the level 7 deeds for...Mathmuse2017-10-15T12:39:05Z