Notoriously Under CRed Monsters


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


From time to time you come accross a monster that if played with any intelligence at all is incredibly under CRed.

I have a small list of creatures that I always add a bit to the CR because if the GM plays them correctly they are incredibly difficult encounters

I recently added the Will-O-Wisp to that list.

a tiny flying creature with an AC 25
its NATURAL state is invisible so its basically under the effect of a permanent greater invisibility) I mean... honestly being able to see it is simply a courtesy that the wisp extends for the hell of it.
immune to almost all magic except magic missile and maze (cant magic missile if you cant see it)
averages only 40 hitpoints but it attacks with a melee touch attack at +16 to hit and deals 2d8 electrical damage (does not have to become visible to do this)
and if it manages to scare or put someone under 0 it gets fast heal 5.

bottom line... a group of level 6 characters would be hard pressed to actually defeat one of these things if played correctly and they will likely flee or be in the company of cohorts, allies or a master which will greatly enhance the battle.

seems a little wicked to me for a measly 2400 xp ^_^

Does that seem under CRed to you?
which Monsters make your list?


Shadows, CR 3 incorporeal with a strength drain attack that causes more shadows to appear in a few rounds.

PUGWAMPIS

Shatter, SR, and a touch of DR, combined with a 20 foot "screw you" aura.

Spoiler:

If you want to be mean put several will'o'wisps with a bogeyman from bestiary 3...


Lacedons near water.

Brain Ooze.


Are we talking about just Pathfinder or 3e/3.5 as well?


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Fast Zombie Pit Fiends


Now I am thinking a bunch of Pugwampis, some traps, and a BBEG...

Dark Archive

Mage Evolving wrote:
Now I am thinking a bunch of Pugwampis, some traps, and a BBEG...

A gnoll BBEG, so he's not affected by the Pugwampis. He can in fact have one riding around on his head.

Pugwampis and gnolls mounted on advanced hyenadons.


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Mergy wrote:
Mage Evolving wrote:
Now I am thinking a bunch of Pugwampis, some traps, and a BBEG...

A gnoll BBEG, so he's not affected by the Pugwampis. He can in fact have one riding around on his head.

Pugwampis and gnolls mounted on advanced hyenadons.

I would suggest a Gnoll witch with the Pugwampi being his improved familiar -- go with the beast bonded too just for S&G's.


There was an excellent thread, on a related subject, a few weeks ago.


I was just talking pathfinder.

pugwampi are more annoying than dangerous but still with DR, SR and their aura I cant see where CR 1/2 comes from.

almost any creature with at will darkness or greater darkness can be a severe pain in the butt they are almost never at a balanced CR


Mosquito swarm.

Screw that guy.

Dark Archive

Abraham spalding wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Mage Evolving wrote:
Now I am thinking a bunch of Pugwampis, some traps, and a BBEG...

A gnoll BBEG, so he's not affected by the Pugwampis. He can in fact have one riding around on his head.

Pugwampis and gnolls mounted on advanced hyenadons.

I would suggest a Gnoll witch with the Pugwampi being his improved familiar -- go with the beast bonded too just for S&G's.

Does the misfortune hex stack with unluck aura?

Sczarni

Certain sizes of animated object. Between the magic immuntiies inherent to constructs and the hardness, the fact that an animated object can have a CR as low as 1/2 if it's small enough (and getting smaller only increases its AC) means that a party of level 1 or 2 PCs might actually get TPK'd by a floating candlestick or something similarly absurd. At best they'd be hard up for ways to damage it.

Also there are a few undead creatures that are incorporeal, but low enough CR so that the party isn't expected to have magic weapons yet. At that point you just hope your spellcaster is a blaster.


Silent Saturn wrote:

Certain sizes of animated object. Between the magic immuntiies inherent to constructs and the hardness, the fact that an animated object can have a CR as low as 1/2 if it's small enough (and getting smaller only increases its AC) means that a party of level 1 or 2 PCs might actually get TPK'd by a floating candlestick or something similarly absurd. At best they'd be hard up for ways to damage it.

Also there are a few undead creatures that are incorporeal, but low enough CR so that the party isn't expected to have magic weapons yet. At that point you just hope your spellcaster is a blaster.

That's why Disrupt Undead is a must, but they can easily TPK any weird party,1 barbarian, 1 ninja, 1 ranger, 1summoner are going to have a hard time at level 2 to 5 againt it.


Mergy wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Mergy wrote:
Mage Evolving wrote:
Now I am thinking a bunch of Pugwampis, some traps, and a BBEG...

A gnoll BBEG, so he's not affected by the Pugwampis. He can in fact have one riding around on his head.

Pugwampis and gnolls mounted on advanced hyenadons.

I would suggest a Gnoll witch with the Pugwampi being his improved familiar -- go with the beast bonded too just for S&G's.
Does the misfortune hex stack with unluck aura?

I would think so. Every time you roll a d20 for both of them so they should multiply. So should Ill Omen. Ill Omen is no save and takes an action to clear. 4 witches can lay on a cycle of Evil Eye + Ill Omen + Misfortune + SoD for 8 saves at -2 if one is a Pugwampi. Throw in persistent metamagic and it's roll 16 times.

One CR=APL encounter is supposed to use up 1/4 of the party's resources. That means killing one member of a typical four member party, right?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
blahpers wrote:

Mosquito swarm.

Screw that guy.

Frankly, any smaller-than-tiny-creature swarm in the event the players are too low level to have many area-of-effect damage spells. A spider swarm is surprisingly lethal against any first level party who didn't bring torches because of light spells, or who doesn't have a sorcerer and their wizard rolled really low on his one casting of burning hands.

Silver Crusade

Burning Skeletons. Take damage for being adjacent. Take damage for being adjacent when it dies. Throws down 2d4 + 2d6 + 4. DR 5/bludgeoning. And you take 1d6 damage for hitting in unarmed or with a natural attack. All for CR 1/2? Seriously? Even a good channel cleric is going to have a hard time handling these rascals without going down!


Probably the most under-CRed thing ever is an Orc Cleric1/Barbarian1 with a greataxe.

I'm of two minds on the Will'o'Wisp. A 6th level party should have enough resources to be able to make that electricity zap completely meaningless, so now you've got an invisible ball just floating around being annoying, rather than threatening. You might not be able to hurt it, but it won't be able to hurt you either.


I just looked at the pugwampi, and it says that anyne with any sort of luck bonus is immune. Aka, all halflings?


I caused a lot more problem than expected to my party with a Witchfire. They had walked through higher CR critters without much problem, but the Witchfire caused them a surprising amount of grief.

Edit:(Though, to be fair, it was partially to do with bad luck on the miss dice)


Jackissocool wrote:
I just looked at the pugwampi, and it says that anyne with any sort of luck bonus is immune. Aka, all halflings?

Halfling's luck is a racial bonus, not a luck bonus.

Dark Archive

Jackissocool wrote:
I just looked at the pugwampi, and it says that anyne with any sort of luck bonus is immune. Aka, all halflings?

Just because it's got luck in the name, doesn't mean it's a luck bonus.

Liberty's Edge

Shadow Demon is a real beast for a CR7.


Archmage_Atrus wrote:

Probably the most under-CRed thing ever is an Orc Cleric1/Barbarian1 with a greataxe.

I'm of two minds on the Will'o'Wisp. A 6th level party should have enough resources to be able to make that electricity zap completely meaningless, so now you've got an invisible ball just floating around being annoying, rather than threatening. You might not be able to hurt it, but it won't be able to hurt you either.

whats so horrible about the orc?

at 6th level the party CAN have enough resources to make the electricity zap meaningless. But not necessarily will have.

they can spam heals for example, but are less likly to have a bunch of immunities or sufficient resistances.

In my mind the problem with the W'o'W is not that its overly powerful. but that a GM playing the creature to its intelligence can significantly hamper a group and the group cant do much about it.


Ferocity is waht makes the orc so hard and a high strength. Lots of orc warrior 1s are hard to fight 6 of them supposedly CR3 can nearly tpk a party of 6 level ones which is apl 2.

Half orcs sacred tatoo is a luck bonus.

Dark Archive

doctor_wu wrote:
Half orcs sacred tatoo is a luck bonus.

True. It's better than the halfling luck version, although it won't stack with as many spells.


Phase Spiders are nasty little buggers.


Tick Swarm.


The Demilich. Mass save or die affecting a large area at very high caster level and a DC high enough to drop half the party on average? Yeah, no thanks. Save or die at long distance? Poor design.

I've had this argument with my DM and he's now threatening to drop one randomly on the party to 'prove me wrong'. I'm going to be even less amused if I lose my (low fort save) character as a result.


... at first I was going to say that as a CR14 its fair.

but goodness gracious your right that thing is insane.

I think it would be balanced if the body does not degrade for 24 hours and the soul could not be consumed as a heal until the body was gone.

but the idea that the demilich can consume one round, then use the soul to heal the next meaning only a wish can bring back is a bit crazy.
Oh... and a 300 foot range and unlimited uses (in fact its ONLY attack is the soul drain) not to mention the -2 levels for SUCCEEDING in the save.

On top of all this, immune to most magic, immune to most damage types (acid, cold, electric, magic) AND DR20/vorpal!!!!

this thing would be under CRed without the soul drain. WITH the soul drain its just ridiculous.

way under CRed creature.

Sovereign Court

It is crazy tough but:
"After 24 hours, the demilich can choose to consume any soul trapped in a gem, healing it 1d6 hit points per Hit Die of the soul, at which point only miracle or wish can restore the dead creature to life. The save DC is Charisma-based, and includes a +2 bonus for the Ability Focus feat."

The demilich cannot consume straight after draining the soul, it has to wait 24 hours.


That's the single SoD, isn't it? I assumed he was talking about the CL 20 wail of the banshee the demilich could do *at will*. That's a mass SoD, and he can do it every stinking round. Fortunately, it's only got a 20' radius. Outside of that, it can only insta-kill one party member at a time. That greater bestow curse is a nasty way to punch past the fighter's fortitude save. Add on all that DR and magic immunity, . . .

For comparison, a "normal" 20th level human sorcerer is CR 19. o_O

Edit: Whoops, forgot, they slip the vorpal susceptibility into the abilities, not the DR listing.

On the bright side, remember back in the day when even a +5 weapon would only ding 1 point of damage on a demilich? Good times.


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Here's a few to watch out for. I won't say they're overpowered, but they can be pretty tough.

  • Most humanoids are pretty beefy at low levels. Especially given their NPC gear. They have most of the options that PCs do, only in smaller quantities. Stuff like Power Attack, 2-handed weapons, point blank shot, alchemical items, potions, and so forth.

    Out of the humanoids, I feel like orcs, goblins, and kobolds are arguably the scariest of them all. Orcs have Ferocity and a +4 racial bonus to Strength, making them the #1 brute enemy at CR 1/3. I've had orc warriors who wielded only clubs with no valuable equipment (bringing their CR down from 1/3 to 1/4) who hit at 1d6+9 with power attack using their clubs. Most could take about 20 points of damage before finally being dead.

    Goblins are amazing due to their stealth. +4 racial, +4 size, +4 Dexterity. Goblins in an area with cover or concealment are a pain to fight. They're naturally great archers, and I've taken down players with little more than some goblins with 1d4 shortbows. They're also very practical for delivering disease or poison tipped arrows.

    Kobolds are arguably the nastiest in my opinion because they have a -1 CR racially. That means you get 1 free kobold for every 3 goblins or orcs you would have gotten. Their small size, dex bonus, and +1 natural armor means their AC can be very good. They are exceptionally nasty when using alchemical weapons, as a group of CR 1/4 kobolds with Point Blank Shot and a couple of alchemist fires will almost assuredly kill any 1st level PC (4d6+4 initial plus 4d6 on the following round).

    Brutish warriors with reach weapons and a potion of enlarge person (well within their NPC gear allotment values) can be exceptionally scary for their CR range.

    Humans are also a worthy mention. Their bonus feat can let you go a bit further with them. Human adepts are particularly worthwhile, since they can take both Skill Focus (Enchantment) and Greater Skill Focus (Enchantment) and a +2 ability modifier can give them a pretty scary DC for sleep spells at CR 1/3. 10 + spell level (1) + 2 (ability) + 2 (feats) = DC 15 save or suck at 1st level. If their ability scores are tweaked slightly (NPCs use 3 point buy), then it might even be as high as DC 16 or 17.

  • Most large aquatic brutes are viciously dangerous for their CR, because they are strongest in the only environment that they are encountered in. A shark can emerge from the watery abyss in a charge->grapple surprise round, win grapple on round 1, then move away from the group at 1/2 speed. Since non-swim speed creatures only move 1/3 as fast as they can walk with a successful swim check, the shark will almost assuredly out pace any attempts to flee; leaving the poor PC to have to deal with being pulled deeper underwater and having to break free. This tactic is equally good with the dire shark (better actually) and creatures such as sea-cats, giant squid/octopi/kraken, and so forth.

  • Spiders are pretty awesome enemies. Being mindless vermin they are immune to all kinds of bad things, while also being able to spin and throw webs at people. They can set webs on the ground, between trees, in hallways, and all over the place. The webs can be difficult to see (DC 20 Perception checks) and multiple spiders spurting webs means the party is almost assuredly going to be entangled throughout the encounter. Toss in poisons, and spiders can quickly become very awesome encounters.

    Combine them with ettercaps for maximum fun. I personally prefer the spider statistics presented in the 3.5 SRD, however. Way more variety, as it comes with pre-made statistics for all kinds of spiders, instead of telling you how many HD they have and then expecting you to stat them out yourself. For a comprehensive list, see Monstrous Spiders.

  • Some creatures with class levels are pretty nasty. Toss sorcerer levels on a shadow and you get a barrel of torment for your players. Cantrips like mage hand and prestidigitation allow them to interact with physical objects; and they can deliver touch spells as part of their strength-draining touch attack. Best part is if they miss with their natural attack, they don't waste the charge from the touch spell. Their ability to slink off from the fight by falling through floors and walls to take the time to cast their spells before returning to do battle.

  • Troglodytes are really beefy. They have a stench ability which inflicts a -2 to checks to enemies on a save, and it's difficult to gain immunity to stench. They also have a +6 natural armor bonus racially, which makes it trivially easy to amass exceptionally high armor classes. Toss some class levels on them and you can get some nice results. Their +2 strength and +4 con racial modifiers make up for their -2 Dex and -2 Int racial modifiers.

    Much like troglodytes, lizardfolk also have very nice natural AC bonuses (+5), and both reptilian races sport natural attacks. Lizardfolk also have a 15 ft. swim speed, making them clearly superior humanoids underwater. Lizardfolk have a +2 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int.

  • Gorgons and Medusa are pretty scary, since petrification tends to be a b!+@@. Gorgons can petrify an entire party with a first turn breath attack. Particularly beefy gorgons (such as having more HD, the advanced template, giant gorgons, or whatever) can be particularly scary. A charisma-focused medusa antipaladin riding on a Gorgon is pretty scary. Many parties may end up looking like a rock garden.

    ==============================

    Interestingly, however...I don't know that I would view any of these guys as over CR'd. Just kind of tough. Most have an achilles heel, and for pure over the top (for CR) potential probably goes to the orcs, since good strength, potions, and ferocity is a nasty combination. My PCs put up with this sort of thing all the time though; and it's been a long time since anyone bit the dust.


  • Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
    Zonto wrote:
    Shadow Demon is a real beast for a CR7.

    I had a first hand experience with running one of those against a party of 6th level characters. Fear drove one character running, and Shadow Evocation at caster level ten dropped another and put a third on his last legs.

    10d6 is a lot for a level 6 or 7 character to deal with, even if there are technically two saves you need to fail, and that's even before the flying, incorporeal, deeper-darkness, and shadow-blend are concerned.

    Dark Archive

    I nominate the chaos beast. CR 7 for four chances per round to fail a DC 17 Fortitude save, leading to melting and wisdom drain. A cruel GM doesn't try to kill anyone with this thing; just get it moving around with its Mobility, inflicting its curse on anyone within reach.


    Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
    Zonto wrote:
    Shadow Demon is a real beast for a CR7.

    I had a first hand experience with running one of those against a party of 6th level characters. Fear drove one character running, and Shadow Evocation at caster level ten dropped another and put a third on his last legs.

    10d6 is a lot for a level 6 or 7 character to deal with, even if there are technically two saves you need to fail, and that's even before the flying, incorporeal, deeper-darkness, and shadow-blend are concerned.

    I had it be over-confident, and full of bravado, not using the darkness or shadow-blend, just to give them a chance.


    Silent Saturn wrote:
    Certain sizes of animated object. Between the magic immuntiies inherent to constructs and the hardness, the fact that an animated object can have a CR as low as 1/2 if it's small enough (and getting smaller only increases its AC) means that a party of level 1 or 2 PCs might actually get TPK'd by a floating candlestick or something similarly absurd. At best they'd be hard up for ways to damage it.

    Assuming hitting it while it's attacking you is your only option. I can't imagine it'd be too hard for the party to grapple something like that. Then tie it to something and beat it until it stops moving. Then beat it some more.

    Silver Crusade

    Red Caps are very nasty for their CR in my opinion.

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