Hi all,
I'm curious if anyone else has considered changing weapon specialization to being damage = to character level for all weapons.
Just toying with an idea of a change for my own games and it looks like small arms and operative weapons do less static damage solely to limit the Operative.
It also seems to have the effect of forcing people to consider taking a weapon proficiency. What was the point of making small arms deal less damage both from the dice AND the flat modifier?
What is the damage tax that the Operative pays for being an Operative, and why is it this was passed on to everyone else?
A level 20 Gyrojet Pistol (small arm) deals 5D12 or an average 32.5 dmg (42.5 with current weapon specialization).
A level 20 Paragon Seeker Rifle (longarm) deals 12D8 or an average 54 dmg (74 with specialization).
A level 20 Paragon Reaction Cannon (heavy weapon) deals 12D10 or an average of 66 dmg (86 with specialization).
So without even talking about specialization, each tier of fire arm going from small -> longarm -> heavy weapon deals more damage than the last tier.
Currently, if the stars align perfectly, and an Operative hits with 4 attacks at 20 with the pistol above, that is 170 dmg. Bumping up their weapon specialization brings this to 210.
A ranged Solarian with the longarm above would deal 234 since they gain a +4 damage bonus from Photon mode. Non-Photon would be 222 on average. So the Operative with small arms is starting to encroach on the Solarian's damage with a longarm. If the Solarian was using the same pistol as above, their 3 attack damage would average 157.5. Yet, a Solarian's best at melee with an average 315 dmg with a reasonable build. ...An Operative with the best melee weapon would yield 224 average and we're thinking this would include a +8 str mod which is unlikely.
A Soldier using the longarm averages 255 if a Sharpshooter using Bullet Barrage and Focus Fire. With only Bullet Barrage that's the same as a Solarian in Photon mode. A heavy weapon using Soldier that is also a Sharpshooter deals 297 dmg on average. Or 258 average damage if the Soldier decided to not play a Sharpshooter or take Bullet Barrage. And a reasonably optimized melee Soldier will deal around 297 dmg with a 2h weapon or 288 with a 1h.
It doesn't seem like the Operative is that close in damage with the Solarian or Soldier that is is threatening their combat roles that much... or is it?
Genuinely curious on just how overpowered this would be.
**edit: And it would seem that any damage increase in favor of an Operative needs to account for Trick Attack which I didn't really bother with at the time...
So toying around with probabilities of hitting a KAC 34 any buff to an Operative's TA dmg potential (be it improving a sniper rifle shot with TA dice or upping weapon specialization) pushes it closer to the Soldier's single shot damage with a Heavy Weapon and almost always out damages everyone else's single shot (except for a Mechanic using Overcharge).
You are correct in your assessments. Some of us have noticed this as well. You can modify these spreadsheets to make som testing. actually Mechanic (drone version in particular) is up there with the Soldier and solarion as well in terms of damage. I think some people are a little intimidated by the operative hence why they toned it down. But above all I think I the major reason was to keep small arms strictly weaker, despite the lower damage dice.
Personally I think doing what you suggest makes small arms more attractive than being mere backup weapons,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qp_bxrnupacXcHlnhK0Co-9kBs5m-LlqFUU pNqu-Zxs/edit#gid=252665754
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TvFA8RQcZ2ldKOpJ9xWaWvp9Mv8w2eQIvot hoXb-WYE/edit#gid=252665754
You are correct in your assessments. Some of us have noticed this as well. You can modify these spreadsheets to make som testing. actually Mechanic (drone version in particular) is up there with the Soldier and solarion as well in terms of damage. I think some people are a little intimidated by the operative hence why they toned it down. But above all I think I the major reason was to keep small arms strictly weaker, despite the lower damage dice.
Personally I think doing what you suggest makes small arms more attractive than being mere backup weapons,
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Qp_bxrnupacXcHlnhK0Co-9kBs5m-LlqFUU pNqu-Zxs/edit#gid=252665754
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1TvFA8RQcZ2ldKOpJ9xWaWvp9Mv8w2eQIvot hoXb-WYE/edit#gid=252665754
Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I've been considering some changes like allowing for 1/2 Trick Attack dice to Debilitating Sniper as well as a small arms fighting style for Soldiers and then started questioning the general reason as to why small arms just have to suck for everyone that isn't an Operative.
Can't access those links, and I didn't forget about the Mechanic. I just excluded it since Soldiers and Solarians tend to be the gold standards for range and melee damage respectively. However, it is worth tinkering with probabilities of hit success to see just how much nicer it is to play an Exocortex or Drone Mechanic than a cursory glance would suggest.
You are aware that pistols, rifles, and heavy weapons like a machine gun do differing ammounts of damage a 9mil pistol, 556 rifle and a .50 cal machine gun do very different ammounts of damage also the operative gets the chance to make more attacks than the other people im willing to bet damage is roughly equal across the classes and yes the soldier and solarion should do more thats their only job
Yup, I'm aware of how muzzle energies works, thank you. A discussion on real life weapons doesn't exactly address the question I raised.
Also, if you're just "willing to bet" on the damage aspect, then you haven't actually analyzed the math of it. That's the point of this discussion. To analyze the math behind the decision of granting only 1/2 character level to small arms and operative melee weapons. Because that ruling in this game has absolutely nothing to do with creating a sense of disbelief on the damage disparity of real weapons. The double dipping of lower damage on small arms (smaller dice pools + smaller static damage) is obviously done to reign in Operative damage. And the tier structure of proficiency isn't disrupted at all if you grant full character level to weapon specialization on small arms. Doing this wouldn't create a scenario in which now the average damage of small arms is suddenly higher than a long arm or heavy weapon of the same level grade. So I'm not sure what you think you're accomplishing with your reply.
What I question is, how much of a problem is it, if an Operative can potentially do 210 damage on average in a 4 hit full attack cycle vs a Soldier's 297 damage average in a 3 hit full attack cycle. Because as it stands, the Operative is doing roughly 170 in my original post. The issue can bring a better comparison of single hits using small arms + trick attack vs a single shot or maybe even a 2 hit cycle of a full attack from a Soldier (or Solarian if checking melee).
And again, the reason why I want to consider these things is to answer the question of if I want to improve the static damage of small arms as a benefit for all classes. However, I need to weigh that with how it will impact the Operative since those weapons seem to be balanced solely around the potential of 1 class out of 7.
So, do you have something else to contribute?
Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I've been considering some changes like allowing for 1/2 Trick Attack dice to Debilitating Sniper as well as a small arms fighting style for Soldiers and then started questioning the general reason as to why small arms just have to suck for everyone that isn't an Operative.
Can't access those links, and I didn't forget about the Mechanic. I just excluded it since Soldiers and Solarians tend to be the gold standards for range and melee damage respectively. However, it is worth tinkering with probabilities of hit success to see just how much nicer it is to play an Exocortex or Drone Mechanic than a cursory glance would suggest.
I advice you test out the spreadsheet. Actually A trick attack (with full Trick attack damage dice) with a sniper rifle deals less damage than a soldier at lvl 15 and 20 (at 10 it seems sniper rifle is slightly better). A trick attack Sniper rifle will always be better than TA with a small arms and sort of equal (or slightly below) to Quad Attack with small arms.
I have been considering adding 1/2 trick attack damage with sniper rifle to be a default option (to use the long range use must sacrifice the movement from the TA). And a exploit (lvl 11 maybe) to allow the full TA damage to sniper rifles.
The idea is to use trick attack against long range single targets and smalls arms against numerous targets or in close combat (due to the exploit that enables you to shoot in CCQ)
Lets try this see if I can post these spreadsheets
Otherwise enter your
The poster sunderedhero made these spreadsheet in this thread. Just make copy of it and you can edit in it. And make sure to give credit (maybe ask for permission to use as well). There are various versions but they are very useful for trying out stuff. He proved alot of things in the beginning by using these. For instance the Solarian isn't underpowered. Thats why adding full lvls to small arms should be examined first. In my opinion. Good luck have fun
See the thread below
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uic2?What-if-sniper-rifles-had-Trick-Attack
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uif5?Solarion-and-Soldier-Damage-Comparison
Glad I'm not the only one that feels this way.
I've been considering some changes like allowing for 1/2 Trick Attack dice to Debilitating Sniper as well as a small arms fighting style for Soldiers and then started questioning the general reason as to why small arms just have to suck for everyone that isn't an Operative.
Can't access those links, and I didn't forget about the Mechanic. I just excluded it since Soldiers and Solarians tend to be the gold standards for range and melee damage respectively. However, it is worth tinkering with probabilities of hit success to see just how much nicer it is to play an Exocortex or Drone Mechanic than a cursory glance would suggest.
I advice you test out the spreadsheet. Actually A trick attack (with full Trick attack damage dice) with a sniper rifle deals less damage than a soldier at lvl 15 and 20 (at 10 it seems sniper rifle is slightly better). A trick attack Sniper rifle will always be better than TA with a small arms and sort of equal (or slightly below) to Quad Attack with small arms.
I have been considering adding 1/2 trick attack damage with sniper rifle to be a default option (to use the long range use must sacrifice the movement from the TA). And a exploit (lvl 11 maybe) to allow the full TA damage to sniper rifles.
The idea is to use trick attack against long range single targets and smalls arms against numerous targets or in close combat (due to the exploit that enables you to shoot in CCQ)
Lets try this see if I can post these spreadsheets
Otherwise enter your
The poster sunderedhero made these spreadsheet in this thread. Just make copy of it and you can edit in it. And make sure to give credit (maybe ask for permission to use as well). There are various versions but they are very useful for trying out stuff. He proved alot of things in the beginning by using these. For instance the Solarian isn't underpowered. Thats why adding full lvls to small arms should be examined first. In my opinion....
I tried a link before your edit and it worked. I've read those threads and the work is great. Originally it had me scratching my head since the comparisons are just average damages but didn't show actual hit probabilities. Later in the thread on the sniper rifles you'll see how the comparison on full attacks and trick attacks are far closer. This is because the probability of a trick attack landing is more favorable than landing all 4 hits of the Operative's full attack. I know that sounds like a "duh" statement, but it is a significant bit of math analysis that needs to be considered. It is also a comparison that needs to be made against other classes.
I had a long winded example with an Operative and Soldier each with weapon focus and a 24 Dex vs a KAC of 27 and level 15 weapons and level 15 abilities. The Soldier had a 21.6% chance to land all 3 hits but the Operative has an 80% chance to land a trick attack. When you grant an Operative full trick attack damage to sniper weapons the Soldier *has* to land all their hits just to keep up. The DPR is in favor of the Operative under those conditions, not the Soldier.
Hmm
Yes you make a point but one could also say that the Trick attack skill check must be included as well into the probabilties. Not sure if you already included that. Usually we try to keep it as simple as possible. And most of use the DPR calculator at the bottom of the spreadsheet. Did you see the DPR at the expected KAC/EAC for the various classes
Yes adding TA to sniper rifles is NOT clear cut. At certain lvls it simply better than anything the soldier can do and thats a little so-so IMO.
Actually the comparasions include probability to hit as well critical hits. look at the tabs at the bottom.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_bB4nyrv0jgeGCxm5AtqS3GYwX59QOeNVm4 SeR21yXA/edit#gid=1653197313
Hmm
Yes you make a point but one could also say that the Trick attack skill check must be included as well into the probabilties. Not sure if you already included that. Usually we try to keep it as simple as possible. And most of use the DPR calculator at the bottom of the spreadsheet. Did you see the DPR at the expected KAC/EAC for the various classes
Yes adding TA to sniper rifles is NOT clear cut. At certain lvls it simply better than anything the soldier can do and thats a little so-so IMO.
Actually the comparasions include probability to hit as well critical hits. look at the tabs at the bottom.
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1_bB4nyrv0jgeGCxm5AtqS3GYwX59QOeNVm4 SeR21yXA/edit#gid=1653197313
Yeah, the TA skill gate is worth considering. However, I find this is largely trivial for the Operative after 7th level since they can auto succeed against equal level CR's and likely auto succeed on CR's higher level. I guess some rare builds that never increase an ability score tied to their specialization won't hold true to this, but generally speaking any reasonable investment into an attribute enhancing this feature will allow auto success.
Ah well. I think I have an idea on where the damage comparison lies so I can further my own tinkering.
So as far as I can tell from my own toying with numbers, if you grant small arms full CL with weapon specialization, then an Operative's trick attack can average the same as if you allowed 1/2 trick attack dice to sniper rifles.
L20 Gyrojet pistol 5D12+20 +10D8 = 97.5 and L20 Shirren Eye 10D10+20 +5D8 = 97.5.
After musing over this more, I'm not sure I'd actually implement this in my home game. First off, changing weapon specialization for small arms and operative weapons doesn't really change the fact that Longarms are still better for all the other classes. Adding 10 more points to small arm damage doesn't really close the gap enough to make other feat choices more appealing if damage dice are the only goal. Which is honestly, a good thing. However, tweaking any damage like this starts to close the gap between the Operative and Soldier a little too much.
Thanks for indulging me in this, Erk Ander! I still have some more work to do, but this helps with some of the homebrew ideas I have been toying with like...
Small arms fighting style for Soldiers - John Woo fans shouldn't just be Operatives!
Trick Attack musings for sniper rifles
Monk conversion (identifying the damage sweet spot helps with my conversion on unarmed damage)
Yeah, the TA skill gate is worth considering. However, I find this is largely trivial for the Operative after 7th level since they can auto succeed against equal level CR's and likely auto succeed on CR's higher level. I guess some rare builds that never increase an ability score tied to their specialization won't hold true to this, but generally speaking any reasonable investment into an attribute enhancing this feature will allow auto success.Ah well. I think I have an idea on where the damage comparison lies so I can further my own tinkering.
So as far as I can tell from my own toying with numbers, if you grant small arms full CL with weapon specialization, then an Operative's trick attack can average the same as if you allowed 1/2 trick attack dice to sniper rifles.
L20 Gyrojet pistol 5D12+20 +10D8 = 97.5 and L20 Shirren Eye 10D10+20 +5D8 = 97.5.
After musing over this more, I'm not sure I'd actually implement this in my home game. First off, changing weapon specialization for small arms and operative weapons doesn't really change the fact that Longarms are still better for all the other classes. Adding 10 more points to small arm damage doesn't really close the gap enough to make other feat choices more appealing if damage dice are the only...
Yeah I know after lvl 7 they are pretty much autosucced on TA by taking 10 on the skillcheck. But technically this sort calculation should be included.
Did the link work ? Did you see the probability chart for hitting a certain KAC and the resulting DPR ? Its a nice sheet because you can test out the damage potential of critting 19-20 (in case u create a feat that enables that, I did). OR how a +1 to hit affects things. OR even create new weapons.
IMO the most important is to make sure the Operative doesn't eclipse the Soldier. After lvl 10 or so a soldier will always do more damage than TA with sniper rifle. So until then TA damage with snipers rifles should be half the TA-damage imo. You can see it on the tab in the spreadsheet if you modify it a bit.
Also don't forget the cost of weaopons. It relevant
Did the link work ?
Unfortunately it didn't. :(
Unfortunately it didn't. :(
Did the link work ?
Did you go to the threads I pointed out, the links in those threads work
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uic2?What-if-sniper-rifles-had-Trick-Attack
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uif5?Solarion-and-Soldier-Damage-Comparison
Unfortunately it didn't. :(
Did the link work ?Did you go to the threads I pointed out, the links in those threads work
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uic2?What-if-sniper-rifles-had-Trick-Attack
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uif5?Solarion-and-Soldier-Damage-Comparison
Ah, I thought you were talking about a different set of information. I've seen those threads, and I'm looking over the level tabs with the formulas.
Thanks!
Unfortunately it didn't. :(
Did the link work ?Did you go to the threads I pointed out, the links in those threads work
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uic2?What-if-sniper-rifles-had-Trick-Attack
http://paizo.com/threads/rzs2uif5?Solarion-and-Soldier-Damage-Comparison
Ah, I thought you were talking about a different set of information. I've seen those threads, and I'm looking over the level tabs with the formulas.
Thanks!
Search for the poster Sundered Hero, he did the spreadsheet and linked to them.
The Google doc links posted ITT don't work.
Hello Gals/Guys I fixed the links
Operative comparasion TA vs Full attack .
Operative comparasiom TA, vs Sniper vs TA with sniper.
Sundered Hero is name of the creater and all credd goes to him. by adding full spec to the damage at the brakpoints you can see the effect of full spec on small arms.