Does teamwork really pay off?


Advice


So first lets work under the premise that your not a cavalier or a inquisitor or any other class made specifically to work with team work feats.

Are they still worth taking? I've been looking through and maybe 3-5 are ok but still requires you and another ally to take the feat. unless your playing in a group with 2 similar classes I feel like you don't get much out of team work feats. They seem to situational.

Am I missing something? Can someone enlighten me on the trick to them.


In my experience the trick to them is they're only worth it if you can use them on your own, gift them to others, or have a dedicated partner who can take them. Otherwise, skip.


In general no.

if I haven't played a cavalier or inquisitor I've basically never seen a party take teamwork feats. I have seen on some rare instances someone build a character with an animal companion or mount and give some teamwork feats that way, but still very rare.

So no, you're not missing anything. Teamwork feats are usually narrowly focused enough that it doesn't work into what you're other team mates are doing.

Looking at the "classic" party of fighter, rogue, wizard, cleric only the fighter really has sufficient feats to try teamworks feats and mostly only if they want to be a bro to the rogue.

The trick is to play a Cavalier and grant them to other players, or an Inquisitor with Solo Tactics, or a Hunter with the ability to share teamwork feats with their companion.

Or any of the various archetypes which get a similar ability.


This sounds more like a general discussion topic.

Ive had games where the players convinced eachother to take a couple, mostly because they didnt know what else to choose and one of them had stumbled across teamwork feats accidentally and thought they looked neat. (They weren't particularly familiar with non-core stuff)

They worked out ok for them, but I doubt more experienced players would want to sacrifice their build's feats unless they had the aforementioned class abilities.


Yeah I wasn't sure where to put it to be honest.


I think outflank is pretty solid for a party with 2-3 melee characters. A lot of them require specific party set ups or campaign styles. If you were playing a stealthy assassin style campaign, then stealth synergy for a party of 4 would provide a much better average bonus then +3 from skill focus.

I tend to think of a lot of them as NPC feats. Amplified rage is obviously pretty decent for a feat, but how often do you really have the party make up for it? A tribe of orc ragers though? Certainly plausible.


Leitner wrote:

I think outflank is pretty solid for a party with 2-3 melee characters. A lot of them require specific party set ups or campaign styles. If you were playing a stealthy assassin style campaign, then stealth synergy for a party of 4 would provide a much better average bonus then +3 from skill focus.

I tend to think of a lot of them as NPC feats. Amplified rage is obviously pretty decent for a feat, but how often do you really have the party make up for it? A tribe of orc ragers though? Certainly plausible.

This is the main problem though, the "classic" party size is 4 players. In such a party you're really looking at only having 2 melee characters, maybe (I'm presuming the cleric after low levels is going to focus on casting and not martial combat). Party composition and having multiple characters which are attempting to fulfill the same role is what's typically required for teamwork feats to be useful, unfortunately due to party size this isn't something that typically happens.

And for things like Stealth synergy, sure it's great if you have a campaign really focused around stealth. But usually it's only short stints were it's required. And the wizard and cleric would like to spend their feats elsewhere. So the wizard is just going to cast Invisibility on them (and anyone else) and forget about other methods of improving stealth.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

We played through Emerald Spire with a teamwork group. The Warpriest, Swashbuckler, Magus and melee Cleric all had Teamwork Feats (and the ring that shares a Teamwork Feat). We'd chain AoOs and slaughter everything that could be Crit and/or Flanked. Only the Wizard didn't have any Teamwork Feats.

It actually made most of the Module trivial. We were regularly dealing 300+ damage in what we called "The Blender".

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Only if you play with dedicated teams, and even then the benefits don't really show much.


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Two Kineticists and Interweave composite blast for the win!


As Nefreet notes it can be incredibly effective, but it is sort of rare to have such a party composition. Out of a 5 person team, 4 were focused on melee. This is pretty rare.

I'm currently playing in a 6 person party for Hell's Vengeance where my Antipaladin and a Vigilante are the only melee characters. The rest of the party consists of a wizard, a devil-binder Cleric, a Msermerist, and a Eldritch Archer Magus.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I should look into some of them for our Hell's Rebels game. My vigilante and the swashbuckler could get some mileage out of them.


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Scythia wrote:
In my experience the trick to them is they're only worth it if you can use them on your own, gift them to others, or have a dedicated partner who can take them. Otherwise, skip.

They only work if your group believes in TEAMWORK.

If you or your group are incapable of this, skip.


Only as good as how people are willing to make them.

Focus on them and they are incredible. Don't and ... wasted a feat


Even with just two melee, Paired Opportunist is incredible if you have the means to force attacks-of-opportunity.

Outflank can also be amazing if you have two melee that crit-fish.


The Phalanx teamwork feats all seem good. Attacking through friendlies, buffing eachother's shields, etc.. I applied them to some monsters to make a more interesting low-level fight and some guardsman to be able to put up a real defense against tougher opponents


Vidmaster7 wrote:

So first lets work under the premise that your not a cavalier or a inquisitor or any other class made specifically to work with team work feats.

Are they still worth taking? I've been looking through and maybe 3-5 are ok but still requires you and another ally to take the feat. unless your playing in a group with 2 similar classes I feel like you don't get much out of team work feats. They seem to situational.

Am I missing something? Can someone enlighten me on the trick to them.

It depends on your group composition and/or the amount of free feats they have. No matter how great the feat is, if you can't get other people to take it it's a dud. However, if you have a group of sneaky gits then something like Stealth Synergy is just amazing.

For a 'normal' group, it's easiest to pick a 'niche' teamwork [and one with little to no prerequisites]. Stealth Synergy, Shielded Caster, Scarred Legion, Shake It Off, ect. In the 'niche' the group will rock and it's only a 1 feat investment.

The real teamwork fun is when the group have a hunter, a cavalier, Pack Rager barbarian, a inquisitor and a Averaka Arbiter Bard in the party...


If you're able to talk with the other people in your group between games and can agree to both take the same teamwork feat, then they're perfectly valid.

If you're in a game where you can't do that (e.g. PFS) I would avoid teamwork feats unless you can use them by yourself or grant them to others. There are probably better things to do with your feats anyway.


I've only ever seen them in play by PCs that got them as a class benefit or in one case between a wizard and their Valet Archetype familiar.

I could see a case to be made for Rogues though. Straight-up vanilla rogues are feat starved, but adding a couple TW feats and partnering with another melee class on the frontline might be a handy way to be always bluffing, feinting and then Sneak Attacking or delivering a never-ending stream of Attacks of Opportunity.

Scarab Sages

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Bonded mind tree ftw


I've seen it 2 times time in a home game when a melee tag team took Outflank. One was a Unchained Rogue and a Slayer. The other was a Summoner who's Eidolon took outflank with a Unchained Rogue in the group.

Both times seemed to work out for them.

But usually, the answer is no.

Sovereign Court

It's possible that so many people play PFS, with constantly changing parties, that teamwork feats don't get enough attention to really sort the gold from the dross.

Emerald Spire is typically the sort of place that might be different because people often do it with a steady group. It's also probably (I'm not that far yet) got a more consistent sort of layout than "all adventures in PFS ever", so picking close-quarter themed feats in a megadungeon can pay off more.

I'm still considering convincing the rest of the group to all take Escape Route.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

My cavalier loves granting Escape Route to the party, allowing them to maneuver without worrying about attacks.

Of course, no teamwork feat is as strong as actual teamwork, like the bard casting Summon Full Attack(Dimension Door on the melee) after beginning Inspire Courage.


If you and a party member agree to make complimentary builds, taking the same Teamwork Feat, then there is a lot of potential there.


There is one Teamwork feat that I have seen paying off in a non Cavalier/Inquisitor build:

Target of Opportunity

You only Need two archers/ranged attackers, then it's basically one extra attack per round for both.


Outflank and paired opportunists are good enough that if you have 2 melee they should probably consider it.

Frankly I think a party that went something like Divine Hunter Inquisitor/Hunter/Eldritch guardian w mauler familiar/Urogue willing to spend at least 2 feats on it would be pretty damned fun


Teamwork feats could work well for GM made mooks, who are often carbon copies of each other, I guess.

Sovereign Court

ChaiGuy wrote:
Teamwork feats could work well for GM made mooks, who are often carbon copies of each other, I guess.

I see those occasionally in PFS. They can be nice WTF moments for the party.

Silver Crusade

Not only dedicated classes (Inquisitors, Hunters and Cavaliers) can use Teamwork feats effectively. Almost every character can get, in fact, a Valet familiar, either through class features, Eldritch Heritage or Familiar Bond.

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Vidmaster7 wrote:
Are they still worth taking? I've been looking through and maybe 3-5 are ok but still requires you and another ally to take the feat. unless your playing in a group with 2 similar classes I feel like you don't get much out of team work feats. They seem to situational.

It's probably true that only about 3-5 teamwork feats are actually good, but those 3-5 are really effective feat choices assuming you can convince your teammates to also take them. Assuming you have a fixed group, of course; in PFS they don't really help.

For instance, Shake It Off: even a +1 to all saves is pretty decent for a feat, and a +4 is really good. It stacks with everything, too. Likewise, feats like Outflank or Precise Strike are usually better than weapon focus and weapon spec, respectively.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

The big problem I have is that many require you to be standing next to your ally, and in my experience that tends to be a bad idea past round one.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

True, but getting +4 to saving throws makes it significantly less bad to stand next to your allies :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Except for those things that don't allow saves or still mess you up on a passed save. :P


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Our Skull & Shackles party (druid, gunslinger, alchemist & daring champion cavalier) took stealth synergy at 3rd level and had lot of fun* using it throughout the AP

Its a really fun choice because you can be sneaky without either
a) the rogue or invisible wizard having a solo adventure while everyone else sits on their hands
or b) several people try to be sneaky at once and almost always get busted because someone is bound to have a low roll.

It was also very flavourful for that AP - think of all the scenes of pirates rowing up to a ship in little dinghies and a whole crew quietly swarming up the side.

As said cavalier I was also giving out precise strike and escape routes a fair amount - escape routes is probably worth taking for real.

The trouble with a lot of the others is they work best for everyone being a very similar character - great if you are all archers or all polearm wielders or all arcane casters, but less so for a normal party. They do make a nice choice for the monsters though. Want to buff those hobgoblins? Give them a couple of levels of fighter, pick teamwork feats and weapons that actually have them working as a team.

*the players had a lot of fun certainly, the ref is still a bit traumatised by the experience


As a GM I give out free teamwork feats if the party can come up with a coherent backstory that warrants it. Just a little something to encourage some pre-game world building


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Our PFS Seeker-level (L12+) party mostly took Lookout. It's paid off,as PFS writers like dropping in a surprise round every 3-4 encounters. But this is an exception, as it's a PFS quasi-campaign with the same six characters for a lot of adventures.


Prof. Löwenzahn wrote:

There is one Teamwork feat that I have seen paying off in a non Cavalier/Inquisitor build:

Target of Opportunity

There's a certain party I would -love- to try out utilizing this, Roman legionnaire style with short spears and shields. This feat was the icing on the cake, and pretty much determined that the party needed to wield thrown weapons.

Then again, there's actually a decent amount of archetypes to go around to pick other styles as well. A good number of them also have mounts or animal companions, which would also receive the teamwork feats these archetypes share using their methods.

A full party of these types of characters would be a blast, but the teamwork feats are hardly worth anyone else's time.


Teamwork feats generally fail with players who feel that any teamwork is an impingement on whatever optimal build/tactic they are currently stuck on. They will always have a reason why it can't possibly work, or is a Trap/waste of time. Those willing to give it a shot tend to find teamwork both effective and, often, more fun for everyone.


ChaiGuy wrote:
Teamwork feats could work well for GM made mooks, who are often carbon copies of each other, I guess.

Can confirm.


Daw wrote:
Teamwork feats generally fail with players who feel that any teamwork is an impingement on whatever optimal build/tactic they are currently stuck on. They will always have a reason why it can't possibly work, or is a Trap/waste of time. Those willing to give it a shot tend to find teamwork both effective and, often, more fun for everyone.

In many cases MORE effective Almost none of this REQUIRES animal companions


Unfortunately, the majority of teamwork feats are too situational or ineffective to take even if they weren't teamwork feats*. And then they added the "everybody involved must use a feat slot" restriction. I agree with ChaiGuy--they seem like they'd work better as a bit of flavor for NPCs belonging to a particular organization as a sort of trademark. As a carrot to reward players for working cooperatively, . . . well, it's a pretty green carrot.

*Compared to non-teamwork feats--plenty of "hmm" regular feats out there, too, of course.


blahpers wrote:

Unfortunately, the majority of teamwork feats are too situational or ineffective to take even if they weren't teamwork feats*. And then they added the "everybody involved must use a feat slot" restriction. I agree with ChaiGuy--they seem like they'd work better as a bit of flavor for NPCs belonging to a particular organization as a sort of trademark. As a carrot to reward players for working cooperatively, . . . well, it's a pretty green carrot.

*Compared to non-teamwork feats--plenty of "hmm" regular feats out there, too, of course.

Teamwork feat mirror feats as a whole for quality. A few awesome ones, several that are good if you know what you're doing and a whole lot that have you scratching your head saying 'why would I ever take that'.


So out of a couple dozen pages of feats, there are only 3-4 that are worth taking?

That sounds like the averages for feats in general.

I will say that coordinated charge can be transformative. Since it is basically pounce for everyone other than the guy that charged first (and you can just make that the guy with actual pounce).


I think the bias against teamwork feats is because some people like the plan out characters from level 1 to 20 (or 12, or whatever). So if your first 7 levels of feats are spoken for before you sit down to play, you probably didn't consider teamwork feats (for a non-Inquisitor, Hunter, etc.) unless you had prior knowledge that someone else in the party was going to take that feat. If someone else wants you to take a teamwork feat, and you've already planned out your feats and you don't have an empty spot, you might not want to change your plans.

I think it's more of a social/culture thing than a game mechanics thing.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think the bias against teamwork feats is because some people like the plan out characters from level 1 to 20 (or 12, or whatever). So if your first 7 levels of feats are spoken for before you sit down to play, you probably didn't consider teamwork feats (for a non-Inquisitor, Hunter, etc.) unless you had prior knowledge that someone else in the party was going to take that feat. If someone else wants you to take a teamwork feat, and you've already planned out your feats and you don't have an empty spot, you might not want to change your plans.

I think it's more of a social/culture thing than a game mechanics thing.

I agree but I also think there are lots of players that build a character on their own and not as a party. You know, the old 'you meet in a bar/inn/ect'. And it can be both, compounding the issue. So it take a certain type of character [with free feats] that's in a group that builds a party togehter. Add to that logistical issues, like adjacent requirements, and it's no surprise the average character has little use for a teamwork feat.


In pathfinder you build a character, you plan out race, class, features and feats, there are lots of options.

Teamwork requires that you and someone agree to take a specific feat and then fight in a specific way to gain a benefit from it. So at minimum 2 players to be on board.

There are decent team work feats, it's just even a Rogue who wants Outflank may need to think twice when they need Weapon Finesse, weapon focus, two-weapon fighting, etc


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A Necromancer with Charnel Soldiers and Ally Shield is a fun combo.


NoTongue wrote:
it's just even a Rogue who wants Outflank may need to think twice when they need Weapon Finesse, weapon focus, two-weapon fighting, etc

Pssst... rogues these days get Weapon Finesse for free. ;)


lemeres wrote:

So out of a couple dozen pages of feats, there are only 3-4 that are worth taking?

That sounds like the averages for feats in general.

I will say that coordinated charge can be transformative. Since it is basically pounce for everyone other than the guy that charged first (and you can just make that the guy with actual pounce).

Outflank

Paired opportunists
Coordinated charge
Precise Strike
Shake it Off
Broken Wing Gambit
Escape Route
Bonded Mind
Amplified RAge

All pretty universally useful if you've got melee in the party

Situationally the Feint teamwork feats can lead to an absolute whirlwind of bonus attacks, letting a party one round things quite a ways outside their "should be able to one round this" tier.


I've made a lot of Pathfinder characters just for fun, and the only one that has teamwork feats is the Hunter. My build was Weapon Finesse, Outflank (Class Feature), Pack Flanking and Weapon Focus, Dervish Dance, Broken Wing Gambit, Paired Opportunists, and Precise Strike and Shake It Off. My 27 pound halfling was doing more damage than the big Barbarian and we had only made it up to level 5. (That particular campaign gave everyone Weapon Finesse for free so I got everything quicker.) Teamwork feats can work really well, but you have to coordinate with the other players or there's no point.

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