Is there something fundamentally "wrong" with Good aligned outsiders?


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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Redelia wrote:


I'm sorry, but this claim is nonsense. Maximizing profit is not evil. It is doing evil things in order to maximize profit that is evil. And those things would be evil even if they were not done for the sake of profit.

IF

A) There is something evil you could do to increase profits
AND
B) You do not do it
THEN
C) Your profits have not been maximized


^ . . . and
D) Thereby, you are at risk of being sued by your stockholders.


...Or fired by the board of directors (and seriously, most CEOs of late have been getting fired if even just a quarter or two have no profit growth. Was a major discussion in business management class.)


TheAlicornSage wrote:

Evil generally keeps theirs too. The idea of evil guys eternally betraying each other at every chance is silliness. Yes, a bad guy is more likely to betray a group, but they won't do it just because they can, rather they'll do it when it is beneficial to do so in the long term, or think they can evade the consequences, not just from cops and good guys but also from other bad guys.

Bad guys know they can't do everything alone, they also know crossing other bad guys is likely to make enemies, enemies that won't be restrained by the law of moral code, which is a much worse thing to have as an enemy. They are selfish, not stupid. In fact, you generally only need to worry about the bad guys that are smart, because they have to be smart to escape the law, and that means most of the time, they are going to work together. Not as well as good guys, but well enough for each of them to walk away with a profit.

About the only evil people who freely slaughter and betray without care, are the rare individuals who are literally broken in the head, who can't help themselves, and those are even more dangerous, because they fight the world, both good and evil, and that means that in order for them to be more than a one time problem, they have to survive both the good guys and the bad guys, and that means running from forensics chasing detectives and assassins. And yes other bad guys have a vested interest in getting rid of such individuals when they cross paths.

Of course...we are not talking about humans, but rather outsiders. Which are concentrations of distilled alignment, and so not expected to necessarily follow human psychology.


Distilled alignment is not only based on humans, or at least group vs individual dynamics, but more importantly, in a place of evil, stupid dies fast. This means that any evil guys that actually live for any decent length of time, survive because they are smart and practical, and that means acting in a fashion that doesn't encourage other evil guys to gang up on them because of how big a pain in the posterior they have become.

If you removed all emotion, and any instinctual drive to work together, yet kept practicality and smarts, you'd probably get people that do less evil than humanity.

It just doesn't pay to be stupid.

Good guys can afford to be stupid, especially if that stupidity comes from spending too much time getting others to like them, cause there will be people who care enough to help out and work together and protect the person being stupid, even they include admonishments.

Evil however can't afford to be stupid, because no one will protect them from being stupid and so one either dies or quickly learns how to spot dangerous consequences. There is no feeling of protection and support for an evil being. They are always in a do-or-die state of mind, and that means different mindsets will be successful, mainly, practical and smart and manipulative., and most importantly they will be careful about recognizing and taking risks.

That is why true evil, in the form of people that recklessly kill and harm all, are broken. They are broken because they are incapable of recognizing how their own behaviour will get them killed in short order, or they can't help themselves (or worse, they don't care about dying, or possibly even want to die). Being that kind of evil doesn't attract minions, it doesn't gain much cooperation (as that generally requires hope for surviving, or someone else surviving), but it does make everyone, good and evil alike, want to stop that type of individual. Thus such evil doesn't last long, cause they make enemies out of everyone, everywhere they go.

Evil isn't inherently hateful, nor even desires destruction. Evil is usually destructive as an emergent effect. Evil behaviour is rarely directly destructive, rather it affects things tht eventually become destructive through a chain of events. Global warming for example, is the sort of destructive consequence that normally comes from evil behaviour. And while evil might destroy more often than good, it is usually more targeted and limited in scope, such as destroying a rival, or killing a fool that failed one too many times.

This is actually important to any concept of populated planes of evil outsiders, as if evil outsiders just went around killing and maiming whoever they wanted, they would quickly depopulate themselves and the forces of good could easily sweep in and finish them off (if the good guys bothered to pay attention and take the opportunity).


TheAlicornSage wrote:
Distilled alignment is not only based on humans, or at least group vs individual dynamics, but more importantly, in a place of evil, stupid dies fast. {. . .}

That doesn't seem to work in our world . . . .


Our world is has a fair bit of good, and evne if evil is a bit more pronounced than good at the moment, there is still a lot of rules and laws that make simple killing a hassle, which is factored as a cost when a bad guy considers whether to kill or not.

Also, in this you might consider "kill" to be in the same sense as "save-or-die." Save-or-die doesn't mean just spells or effects that literally kill, but basically any effect that removes the target from being able to participate in the fight. In the real world with evil, that includes getting caught and sent to prison, beat up till paralyzed, identified such that returning to the place of the crime would result in capture, etc.

Also, many people assume that stupid is always stupid. But actually, intelligence comes in varieties, so a criminal doing something stupid doesn't mean they are incabaple of showing intelligence in any capacity, it just means their intellect is geared toward something other than the mistake they made, or their intellect is slow requiring more time to process and develop a "smart" decision than they had time for.

I've literally had conversations with a guy who could talk and understand physics, philosophy, mathematics, and complex systems, but literally, and I mean literally, required 3-5 minutes of thinking before each response. He was slow, but not stupid. If he was pressed to do a smart thing quickly though, he'd probably look like an absolute idiot if unprepared.


TheAlicornSage wrote:

Our world is has a fair bit of good, and evne if evil is a bit more pronounced than good at the moment, there is still a lot of rules and laws that make simple killing a hassle, which is factored as a cost when a bad guy considers whether to kill or not.

{. . .}

That depends very much upon who you are and where you are.

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