Animate Dead and "effects end at the end of the adventure"


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The Concordance Venture-Agent, Utah—Logan aka ShieldLawrence

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

I think another possible issue is that "yak corpse" isn't something you can take from session to session.

As far as I'm aware if your yak dies you just cross it off your item tracking sheet as "yak corpse" isn't a valid item or creature.

I wish "expended" was a better defined term in this case. Whether a Yak is living or dead it is still a yak. I own the Yak in either case as well. If it was destroyed, that certainly spells out "expended" but when it hasn't been destroyed or lost it's still a Yak, and a player can certainly prove ownership and track it.

2/5

I buy five yaks. They all die, through natural or unnatural causes. I buy sixth yak to cart the corpses of the other five around. I animate those five yaks at the start of a scenario and trivialize the entire thing as a result. Your personal discretion to only doing this with one yak doesn't change the fact that it's really problematic behavior which can easily go off the rails if allowed.

The PFS rule just says the spell "ends." It doesn't say it wears off, why it ends, or what that entails. In absence of anything suggesting you get a corpse, the most reasonable interpretation is that the remainder of the Animate Dead spell text kicks in: the only way to end an animate dead spell is to destroy the undead. So at the end of the scenario, your undead was destroyed. And even if you still had a corpse left, it still wouldn't be a valid target for another animate dead.

Shadow Lodge

1st Animate dead is not Permanent its Instantaneous ... and there are some important distinctions

PRD wrote:


School necromancy [evil]; Level antipaladin 3, cleric/oracle 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 4; Domain death 3; Subdomain souls 3

CASTING

Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (an onyx gem worth at least 25 gp per Hit Die of the undead)

EFFECT

Range touch
Targets one or more corpses touched
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw none; Spell Resistance no

the Differences are

Instantaneous
The spell energy comes and goes the instant the spell is cast, though the consequences might be long-lasting.

Permanent
The energy remains as long as the effect does. This means the spell is vulnerable to dispel magic.

PFS Rules that only 4 Spells can go between scenarios
Continual Flame, Masterwork Transmutation, Secret Chest, Secret Page

hard and fast rule is ---

PFS Says that "All spells and effects end at the end of an
adventure with the following exceptions" and Animate dead is NOT on that list

Animated dead "The remain animated until destroyed"

so if you take those 2 pieces ...
Animate dead ends ... therefore its destroyed ...it doesnt matter how ... it just is

and it doesnt matter how .... those are the rules


i like the idea of a yak steak

feed the poor starving kids with yak steak


If a broken item is a condition of hp damage, and can be taken from scenario to another, I fail to see how a dead yak (a yak, that is dead as a condition of hp damage) cannot be taken from one scenario to another.

Whether it could be animated from one session to another is an entirely different kettle of fish that I am unsure on.

Scarab Sages 5/5

J4RH34D wrote:

If a broken item is a condition of hp damage, and can be taken from scenario to another, I fail to see how a dead yak (a yak, that is dead as a condition of hp damage) cannot be taken from one scenario to another.

Whether it could be animated from one session to another is an entirely different kettle of fish that I am unsure on.

If you can figure out how to carry 1,000 pounds around during a scenario, then I won't begrudge you that.

However, Wraith235 has a pretty good logical flowchart of the order of events that as swayed me to disallowing the re-casting of animate dead on the same corpse over and over.

5/5

I can understand why PFS campaign leadership is reluctant to allow necromancers to build an army over time that will completely disrupt scenarios, but since the animate dead spell does not function as written in the CRB in this campaign, I think it is logical to say that the undead is not destroyed by the process that is happening outside of normal rules, and so it should be possible to animate the same corpse again. Because the yak was a purchased item, you have documentation that it is legal for you to have it when starting a scenario (which is not the case for stuff you killed during your last outing unless it appears on the Chronicle). It's status of being alive or dead is only germane to whether it is considered an animal or an object, and not to whether or not you are allowed to own it. That said, my concern is how you are transporting a 1000 lb. corpse around between scenarios? If you have a portable hole or sufficiently large bag of holding (which probably weighs more than most necromancers can handle), no problem, but short of that, I think you are better off just animating the stuff you find in the scenario.


My 2cp, the spell is only ending to prevent shenanigans of amassing an army over the course of a career. I think that it should at least be considered by the PTB, if we want to allow a necromancer to purchase a suitable animal for a corpse, mark it as an expense, and provided it survives to end of scenario allowing the corpse to be available for recasting the spell.

3/5

Just my 2cents, but a yak is 24 gold sure, but more importantly uses the same stats as a bison which is 5HD for 125 gold worth of obsidian every adventure. That's gonna be a net negative unless your somehow getting max on dayjob every session, so keep that in mind. Also, frankly, means the 24 gold for a new yak is the least of your worries, footing that 125 gold spell cost every game is gonna be the rough part.

Personally, I'm buying batches of small 1hd animals that I play on tossing in the faces of my enemies and letting them cause havock as a skeletal chicken or dire rat attacks them. Not much worse than shelling out for 2 or 3 alchemist fires and more manageable with a possibility of doing more damage depending on which creature and other things.

Scarab Sages 4/5 Venture-Captain, Utah—Utah County aka Yasha Vienne

Christian Cannell wrote:

What happens to the corpses raised by Animate Dead at the end of the adventure?

Guild Guide p.22 wrote:
All spells and e ects end at the end of an adventure with the following exceptions.

Animate Dead isn't on the list of exceptions. I'm inclined to think that spells go away, leaving their targets as they were before being modified. So the Yak I spent 24gp on and later raise as a skeleton should go back to being a mundane skeleton as the Animate Dead wears off, right? As long as it didn't get destroyed during the adventure. [/QUote/]

your skelliton goes poof.. it is considered a pet.. or hireling.. once it dies (even by dismissal or end of a spell) it is dead and needs to be replaced. i buy a dog for example. it dies.. i pick up the bones and either bury them and buy a new dog, carry them with me as flavor text, or pay resurection costs. thus.. if you want a permanant skellital minion.. just keep buying new animals.. i mean what was the cost you had quoted? 24gp.. come on.. your day job of "grave digger/undertaker/mortician" pays for it.

The Exchange

Everyone here is kinda missing the point. He doesn't care about the Yak. He cares about the implication for stuff like the Wooly Rhinoceros he mentioned which would cost 2000g every scenario.

I personally think it be acceptable for Animate Dead cast on a purchased animal to persist between scenarios. It could count against your 1 combat companion limitation. If the animal would be destroyed you can't reanimate it again.

I don't think the current rules support what is being proposed. Casting animate dead on the same target is out of the question by the rules of the spell itself.

I see no reason you couldn't have an animal listed on your inventory tracking sheet with the dead condition. You could always raise it again so that it can die again. This becomes more practical the higher the cost of the animal such as 11000 for the Spinosaurus. Overall it probably costs too much to do this without some quality of life rules changes.

I think the best approach would just be casting necromancy spells until an opportunity to animate dead comes along each scenario.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

3 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

First of all, let's be clear about dead things: they are still around after the session ends, and can be brought to future sessions.

My witch has a familiar. It dies in a scenario. My witch can certainly cart around its corpse in future scenarios. "This was Fluffy. He was my conduit to my guiding spirit. I shall keep him always, as a reminder of the bond we enjoyed. Would you like to pet him?"

The suggestion that "dead" is a condition that must be cleared from an animal companion / familiar / whatever is not in the Campaign Guide.

--

I agree with Wraith235, about the difference between an instantaneous spell and a permanent one. (Handy note: your shambling mockery of a yak is perfectly fine in the Mana Wastes; dispel magic and anti-magic zones have no effect on undead.)

But I also agree with Pete: the PFS version of animate dead does not function the same way as its core game counterpart. The only way for a normal Pathfinder undead to cease being animated is for it to be destroyed. But that's not the same as a PFS animated dead skeleton. Those spell effects cease, not because the critter is destroyed, but because the campaign rules suggest it.

Look: there are unique items in the campaign, like intelligent swords and such. But you can assemble a party where every character has the exact same intelligent sword. Is that some power of the sword, to duplicate itself so freely? No, it's a consequence of the particular campaign rules.

I think that campaign leadership could come visit this issue and explain, in this campaign, what happens to your undead buddies. Are they destroyed? Or just dead?

(Awkward implication: a PC is killed, and the necromancer animates her corpse for the rest of the adventure. Is her corpse destroyed at the end of the adventure, and hence no longer available to be resurrected?)

The Exchange

Nothing awkward about it. That is the same case as an enemy casting animate dead on a PC. You need True Resurrection. These cases are why that spell is available for prestige/spellcasting services despite being such a high level spell.

Of course the player can just say they don't want to be animated to the necromancer's player.

Grand Lodge

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I disagree with the familiar example. Your familiar is a class feature and not a purchased animal so I don't think they can be compared.

This is enough of a grey area that a campaign clarification is needed. Otherwise you're gonna be subject to a lot of table variation.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Ragoz wrote:


Of course the player can just say they don't want to be animated to the necromancer's player.

They can, but animate dead isn't damage, so the necromancer isn't required to obtain consent.

Roleplaying Guild Guide wrote:
Accidental friendly fire can happen (due to missed attack rolls or other factors), but players must obtain the consent of other players before deliberately including fellow PCs in damaging effects.

That's the length and breadth of the restrictions on player-vs-player. A lot of GMs broaden that to "you can't take any action other players don't like" but it's pretty specific. Butt out of other PCs affairs, unless offering to help, and don't damage other PCs.

(Indeed, a previous campaign director observed that a paladin PC was within her rights to kill a necomancer's animated dead skeletons, because it's not damage to the character.)

Scarab Sages 4/5 Venture-Captain, Utah—Utah County aka Yasha Vienne

Christian Cannell wrote:

What happens to the corpses raised by Animate Dead at the end of the adventure?

Guild Guide p.22 wrote:
All spells and e ects end at the end of an adventure with the following exceptions.
Animate Dead isn't on the list of exceptions. I'm inclined to think that spells go away, leaving their targets as they were before being modified. So the Yak I spent 24gp on and later raise as a skeleton should go back to being a mundane skeleton as the Animate Dead wears off, right? As long as it didn't get destroyed during the adventure.

i hereby addendum my statement. after much, much, much research. we understand the cost associated with animals as they gain in hit dice. it is not unreasonable to look for a less costly method to gaining something creative in game. as we know spells have durations. the persist for as long as the duration lasts. even dead wizards with mage armor still have mage armor as a persistant effect even though we ignore it. thus i propose a middle ground solution. summon natures ally. it has a duration of afew rounds. however in the realm of magic we also understand last in first out dichotemy.. so.. summon natures ally "yak" command it to lay down and coup de grace the thing.. then animate dead while its remains persist. just because we are trained to ignore bodies of summoned critters in pfs doesnt mean they arent there. animate dead says "persists till destroyed" thus allowing the animated critter to remain till the end of the scenario. since we have not come up with a legal method to remove the spell and allow the remains to persist.. i offer this as your alternate...

The Exchange

Chris Mortika wrote:
Ragoz wrote:


Of course the player can just say they don't want to be animated to the necromancer's player.

They can, but animate dead isn't damage, so the necromancer isn't required to obtain consent.

Roleplaying Guild Guide wrote:
Accidental friendly fire can happen (due to missed attack rolls or other factors), but players must obtain the consent of other players before deliberately including fellow PCs in damaging effects.
That's the length and breadth of the restrictions on player-vs-player. A lot of GMs broaden that to "you can't take any action other players don't like" but it's pretty specific. Butt out of other PCs affairs, unless offering to help, and don't damage other PCs.
Player VS Player In Glossary of Guild Guide wrote:
"...to kill, harm, or otherwise contribute to the injury of another PC. PVP is strictly prohibited.

The definition in the most recent version of the guide is much broader than damage alone.

Scarab Sages 4/5 Venture-Captain, Utah—Utah County aka Yasha Vienne

Christian Cannell wrote:

What happens to the corpses raised by Animate Dead at the end of the adventure?

Guild Guide p.22 wrote:
All spells and e ects end at the end of an adventure with the following exceptions.
Animate Dead isn't on the list of exceptions. I'm inclined to think that spells go away, leaving their targets as they were before being modified. So the Yak I spent 24gp on and later raise as a skeleton should go back to being a mundane skeleton as the Animate Dead wears off, right? As long as it didn't get destroyed during the adventure.

nevermind.. i redact my statement.. summons do vanish

Sovereign Court 5/5 Venture-Captain, Canada—Manitoba aka Kess, Humble Servant of Abadar

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Matthais777 wrote:
.... a yak is 24 gold.....

I can't believe we're arguing about 24 gold per session.

Shadow Lodge 5/5

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Believe it!

Also consider that what is good for the yak is good for the colossal centipede.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dave Baker wrote:
Matthais777 wrote:
.... a yak is 24 gold.....
I can't believe we're arguing about 24 gold per session.

We're not. It was just the first example used by the OP. The consequences of this decision could also be applied to a herd of Woolly Rhinoceros.

The Concordance Venture-Agent, Utah—Logan aka ShieldLawrence

Nefreet wrote:
Dave Baker wrote:
Matthais777 wrote:
.... a yak is 24 gold.....
I can't believe we're arguing about 24 gold per session.
We're not. It was just the first example used by the OP. The consequences of this decision could also be applied to a herd of Woolly Rhinoceros.

A herd of wooly rhoniceros can be yours for only one easy payment of 6,000-24,000gp!

Scarab Sages 5/5 ⦵⦵⦵

9 people marked this as a favorite.

Tacks up a sign

ATTENTION WOOLLY RHINOCEROS SALESMEN

Do not sell any of your fine animals to anyone exhibiting any of the following behaviors

  • Black robes
  • Skull motifs
  • Scyths
  • Making quips about literally making friends
  • Unholy symbols
  • Flames for eyes
  • Shovels
  • Muttering anything resembling "I'll show them all
  • Asking for bulk quantity black onyx sales


So jokes aside, Is there an actual answer to this one?

I fall firmly in the "Animate it once, then its dead and gone" camp

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

That is what I believe the answer to be as well.

It's how I run my Necromancer, and it's how I'd rule as a GM if someone really pressed the issue.

Most players IME opt for the less expensive and more interesting option of animating what they find anyways, though.

The Concordance Venture-Agent, Utah—Logan aka ShieldLawrence

Thefurmonger wrote:

So jokes aside, Is there an actual answer to this one?

I fall firmly in the "Animate it once, then its dead and gone" camp

No actual answer unfortunately! I'd say run it by your GM and if they're gonna mark your skeleton as expended after one scenario whether it survives or not, use that info as to whether you choose to animate your buddy.

Scarab Sages 4/5 ⦵⦵

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

I truly hope that campaign leadership doesn't respond in this silly thread. Their time is better spent elsewhere.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Christian Cannell wrote:
run it by your GM and if they're gonna mark your skeleton as expended after one scenario whether it survives or not, use that info as to whether you choose to animate your buddy.

I should hope the section I bolded is unquestionable.

If an animated corpse is destroyed, it quite unambiguously cannot be animated again.

If need be I would write that down in big purple ink on the Chronicle.

I understand the ambiguity of the spell effect simply not persisting beyond the scenario (I simply disagree with how you'd rule it), but on this there should be no table variation.

The Concordance Venture-Agent, Utah—Logan aka ShieldLawrence

Nefreet wrote:
Christian Cannell wrote:
run it by your GM and if they're gonna mark your skeleton as expended after one scenario whether it survives or not, use that info as to whether you choose to animate your buddy.

I should hope the section I bolded is unquestionable.

If an animated corpse is destroyed, it quite unambiguously cannot be animated again.

If need be I would write that down in big purple ink on the Chronicle.

I understand the ambiguity of the spell effect simply not persisting beyond the scenario (I simply disagree with how you'd rule it), but on this there should be no table variation.

I could have worded that better. "Expended after one scenario even if it survives"

Destroyed is a definite no-go, the corpse wouldn't exist anymore for animation.

Sczarni 5/5 ⦵⦵

Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Kk

3/5

Christian Cannell wrote:

Can someone show me why a spell wearing off is being assumed to destroy the target of the spell?

The spell is gone, poof, so we are left with the target of the spell, a corpse. The spell doesn't have any language to suggest it irrevocably changes the target of the spell, just that a destroyed skeleton can't be reanimated...

If the yak corpse become an undead and was destroyed, it should be assuredly stricken from the ITS.

But if it survived the encounter and at the end the Animate Dead wore off, we are just left with a yak corpse.

If I had Masterwork Transformation cast twice in a scenario, once on my silver long sword and once on my cold iron long sword, and st the end of the scantily I decided to keep the spell effect on the cold iron one, is my silver sword similarly destroyed? No, I'd say it just a goes back to becoming what it was before the spell affected it because the effect wears off.

The effect of Animate Dead is turning a corpse into an undead. When Animate Dead wears off (due to the super duper between scenarios dispel event) we have the corpse as it was before the spell affected it.

It was undead, and now it's not. So its undeadness has been destroyed.

The Concordance Venture-Agent, Utah—Logan aka ShieldLawrence

whew wrote:
Christian Cannell wrote:

Can someone show me why a spell wearing off is being assumed to destroy the target of the spell?

The spell is gone, poof, so we are left with the target of the spell, a corpse. The spell doesn't have any language to suggest it irrevocably changes the target of the spell, just that a destroyed skeleton can't be reanimated...

If the yak corpse become an undead and was destroyed, it should be assuredly stricken from the ITS.

But if it survived the encounter and at the end the Animate Dead wore off, we are just left with a yak corpse.

If I had Masterwork Transformation cast twice in a scenario, once on my silver long sword and once on my cold iron long sword, and st the end of the scantily I decided to keep the spell effect on the cold iron one, is my silver sword similarly destroyed? No, I'd say it just a goes back to becoming what it was before the spell affected it because the effect wears off.

The effect of Animate Dead is turning a corpse into an undead. When Animate Dead wears off (due to the super duper between scenarios dispel event) we have the corpse as it was before the spell affected it.

It was undead, and now it's not. So its undeadness has been destroyed.

It's "undeadness" ends, because it was the effect of a spell that ends. It was undead and now it's not, it's a corpse without its undeadness.

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