Jotungrip + Lighten weapon


Advice and Rules Questions


If I use Jotungrip with great sword it makes them 1 handed.
If I the Lighten Weapon it would make them light weapons?
Then i could use weapon finesse and deadly agility and have a dex based rogue barb that destroys?


No, this will not work. The spell Lighten Object does not change the weapon category that Greatswords fall under, namely two-handed weapons. Note that when cast upon armor, it doesn't make heavy armor count as medium armor, or medium armor count as light armer.


I was more thinking the Feat.


Lighten Weapons wrote:
Special: The effect of this feat does not stack with other feats that alter wielding effort or weapon size.

Jotungrip isn't a feat, but a class ability, but I would say it doesn't stack either way. So you can't use both of them to treat a two-handead weapon as a light one.


makes sense, Would that mean that the 11 level two-weapon warrior would also not apply?


Pirot101 wrote:
makes sense, Would that mean that the 11 level two-weapon warrior would also not apply?

I think it does not stack. That is, if you have Lighten Weapon, and you wield a two-handed weapon in the off-hand, Improved Balance won't be able to allow you to treat is as a light weapon.

You can still reduce the penalties for TWF, as described in the first part of the Improved Blance ability.


it would stack you would still take a -2 to hit from jotungrip tho


It's hard to tell how fake feats work with real abilities. Just make it up


True, I haven't noticed that Lighten Weapon is a 3rd party feat. If your GM allows it, ask him for the ruling. There won't be any unified, 'official' interpretation on how 3rd party feats work.

Scarab Sages

Thread should be in forum for 3rd party content.

But to answer your question, no, I don't think they stack nor do I think they are intended to stack.

The big issue is that both of them make the two handed weapon wieldable in one hand, while neither make the two handed weapon into a one handed weapon. Sure, it counts as such for power attack, but it is outside the written effect of either ability to downgrade a two-handed weapon into a light weapon. GM could still allow it, so you could ask nicely.

Paizo Employee Customer Service Representative

This thread has been moved to the Third-Party Advice and Rules forum.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Just keep in mind that the weapon itself never changes, it is still a Two Handed weapon no matter how it is wielded.

Just as wielding a One Handed weapon with two hands imparts the Two Handed bonuses, so does wielding a Two Handed weapon with one hand imparts One Handed bonuses/effects. Still can't use another (Two Handed Weapon) in the off hand, still can't wield a larger one with two, and so on. (Two Weapon Fighting with Two Handed Weapons is not possible here)


thaX wrote:

Just keep in mind that the weapon itself never changes, it is still a Two Handed weapon no matter how it is wielded.

Just as wielding a One Handed weapon with two hands imparts the Two Handed bonuses, so does wielding a Two Handed weapon with one hand imparts One Handed bonuses/effects. Still can't use another (Two Handed Weapon) in the off hand, still can't wield a larger one with two, and so on. (Two Weapon Fighting with Two Handed Weapons is not possible here)

that is incorrect if you can wield a 2h weapon with one hand then you can use two of them at the same time as long as you have 2 hands

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

There is no off hand use for the Two Handed Designation. Two Weapon Fighting does not mention it and it is absent from the Two Handed Weapon designation, referring to needing "both" hands to wield it.

You can use a One Handed or a Light weapon in the off hand as you wield the Two Handed Weapon one handed with the Main hand using the ability that allows it.


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it is treated as a 1handed weapon for feats.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.


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vhok wrote:

it is treated as a 1handed weapon for feats.

Jotungrip (Ex): At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

this^

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It is a Two Handed Weapon being wielded in one hand, just like the One Handed weapon can be used with two. The difference is that you need a Feat (Thunder and Fang) or Class Ability (Jotungrip) to be able to wield the Two Handed weapon in that way.


thaX wrote:
It is a Two Handed Weapon being wielded in one hand, just like the One Handed weapon can be used with two. The difference is that you need a Feat (Thunder and Fang) or Class Ability (Jotungrip) to be able to wield the Two Handed weapon in that way.

yes and when you do it becomes effectively a 1h weapon meaning you can twf with them

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

We continue to disagree.

As I said in the first post I have here... "Just keep in mind that the weapon itself never changes, it is still a Two Handed weapon no matter how it is wielded."

The Inappropriately Sized Weapon section does not come into play here. The weapon is used with one hand, getting the appropriate effects for wielding it in that manner,such as 1.0 str mod damage, +2 damage for every -1 to hit for Power Attack and the like. It does not turn the weapon into a One Handed Weapon.


thaX wrote:

We continue to disagree.

As I said in the first post I have here... "Just keep in mind that the weapon itself never changes, it is still a Two Handed weapon no matter how it is wielded."

The Inappropriately Sized Weapon section does not come into play here. The weapon is used with one hand, getting the appropriate effects for wielding it in that manner,such as 1.0 str mod damage, +2 damage for every -1 to hit for Power Attack and the like. It does not turn the weapon into a One Handed Weapon.

it is however wielded as a 1h weapon which means for the purposes of twf it gets a -4/-4 to hit and also means you can wield a 2nd one in your off hand if you so choose


Lady-J wrote:
it is however wielded as a 1h weapon which means for the purposes of twf it gets a -4/-4 to hit and also means you can wield a 2nd one in your off hand if you so choose

Lady J, you are saying the same thing thaX is saying. Yes, it is treated as a 1handed weapon when you use it because of the feat/class ability. It still remains (for all other intents an purposes) a two handed weapon. That never changes.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Our disagreement is if wielding it in that manner would allow Off Hand use for that Two Handed Weapon. The Rules are mute for this particular case, as the Off Hand can only wield a Light or One Handed weapon.

Grand Lodge

You can easily read it either way. And the thing is, no one is objectively correct because the wording of Jotungrip makes the RAW incredibly vague.

Jotungrip wrote:
At 2nd level, a titan mauler may choose to wield a two-handed melee weapon in one hand with a –2 penalty on attack rolls while doing so. The weapon must be appropriately sized for her, and it is treated as one-handed when determining the effect of Power Attack, Strength bonus to damage, and the like.

That "and the like" clause can be read to encompass all effects related to handedness, just things that effect damage, or anything inbetween.

There's just not an objectively correct answer on this due to the vagueness of the wording. The only thing you can really do is ask your GM.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Yes, GM fiat is the word on this issue. The determination is if the Inappropriately Sized Weapons rules actually come into play here, which is what we are discussing.

I don't think it comes into play when the weapon isn't of an inappropriate size, and others disagree.


Question about Lighten Weapon
"This allows you to wield a weapon 1 size category larger as if it were your own size."
Does it mean that PC treat Huge weapons as Large?


Dual-wielding 2-handers with Jotungrip would be at -6/-6 with Two-Weapon Fighting Feat (-2 from Jotungrip to wield a 1her, -4 for dual-wielding 1hers).

As for using it with Lighten Weapon, it seems to me that they would be similar to virtual size increases not stacking.

Now, Jotungrip with the Impact weapon special ability . . .


That was a necro.

But to answer your question, it depends. The feat lowers the effective handedness of the weapon by 1. So a 1 size larger 1-handed sword remains a 1-handed sword instead of becoming 2-handed.

As for Jotungrip, the FAQ says that you treat weapons with that type of ability as however you are holding it at the time. The feat itself wouldn't work because Jotungrip only works for weapons "created for a creature of your size". So you could dual wield medium greatswords, but not large greatswords.

In other words, lighten weapon is the combination of Jotungrip and Titan Fighter, with an upgrade to work on any weapon (not just 2-handed).

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