Constructing tower shields with a better Max Dex


Rules Questions

Liberty's Edge

How can you make a tower shield with a higher max dex bonus? Because RAW is dumb I understand you can't make them out of mithral despite the fact that there are several mithral tower shields in various books. What other materials can you use instead? Noqual and Singing Steel seem to be usable, albeit at a cool 7000 gold for either of them. Non-magical Noqual is of course cheaper but lets assume magic is necessary.


Since the base material is wood, try darkwood.

Liberty's Edge

avr wrote:
Since the base material is wood, try darkwood.

That would be the most logical option, to simply assume that darkwood, offering an 'almost as good as mithral' armor check improvement, would offer a similar benefit to max dex, say a +1 or something. But alas, the RAW is not that prescient and it offers no benefit to max dex.


TheJrade wrote:
avr wrote:
Since the base material is wood, try darkwood.
That would be the most logical option, to simply assume that darkwood, offering an 'almost as good as mithral' armor check improvement, would offer a similar benefit to max dex, say a +1 or something. But alas, the RAW is not that prescient and it offers no benefit to max dex.

If I were a GM and someone asked about a material allowing better Max Dex for a tower shield I would answer "Forget about it, it will never happen, and if there is an official rule allowing it, then there will be a houserule in my campaign disallowing it".

But thats only my standpoint, tower shields are small portable walls that you hide behind. Not much point in moving a lot if it takes you out of cover from the shield. If your Dex is high, use another kind of shield instead.

Grand Lodge

Pretty sure there's not a way to make one with a better max dex. However, there are some feats and archetypes that specifically do increase the max dex of a tower shield.

Specifically the Tower Shield Specialist fighter archetype and the Tower Shield Specialist feat.

Liberty's Edge

MenardidiCantathino wrote:
TheJrade wrote:
avr wrote:
Since the base material is wood, try darkwood.
That would be the most logical option, to simply assume that darkwood, offering an 'almost as good as mithral' armor check improvement, would offer a similar benefit to max dex, say a +1 or something. But alas, the RAW is not that prescient and it offers no benefit to max dex.

If I were a GM and someone asked about a material allowing better Max Dex for a tower shield I would answer "Forget about it, it will never happen, and if there is an official rule allowing it, then there will be a houserule in my campaign disallowing it".

But thats only my standpoint, tower shields are small portable walls that you hide behind. Not much point in moving a lot if it takes you out of cover from the shield. If your Dex is high, use another kind of shield instead.

If I were a GM and someone asked about a material allowing better Max Dex for a tower shield I would answer "Forget about it, it will never happen, and if there is an official rule allowing it, then there will be a houserule in my campaign disallowing it".

But thats only my standpoint, tower shields are small portable walls that you hide behind. Not much point in moving a lot if it takes you out of cover from the shield. If your Dex is high, use another kind of shield instead.

Mithral and adamantine specifically say you can't make wooden items out of them, and a bit of fluff text on the description of tower shields talks about them being wooden. While there are numerous examples of tower shields being made out of both, a stringent RAW interpretation assumes the fluff text is actually rules text and applies to all tower shields. Obviously this requires players and DMs to ignore basic logic and common sense but hey, this is a game with wizards.

No where in the text for either noqual or singing steel does it have the admonition against wooden items and in both it also says shields can be constructed of these materials. There is no interpretation of logic or the printed rules that forbids noqual/SS tower shields. They are just super-expensive.

Liberty's Edge

Jurassic Pratt wrote:

Pretty sure there's not a way to make one with a better max dex. However, there are some feats and archetypes that specifically do increase the max dex of a tower shield.

Specifically the Tower Shield Specialist fighter archetype and the Tower Shield Specialist feat.

The TSS feat is good, but you have to be a level 8 fighter to get it. And weirdly the TSS archetype only modifies the max dex of your armor, and not the tower shield. It has always looked suspiciously like a typo to me, but that is the RAW.

Grand Lodge

TheJrade wrote:
The TSS feat is good, but you have to be a level 8 fighter to get it.

Actually that's not true. The prerequisite is BAB +11 OR Fighter 8.

Any full bab character could pick it up at level 11.


The TSS archetype and the feat interact weirdly; they effectively do the same thing as far as treating your shield and armor as one big penalty for the purposes of the armor training reduction, but only the feat explicitly calls out that it does this. The archetype simply gives you a bigger reduction in ACP when using your tower shield, and lets you extrapolate the rest.

Anyway, yeah, you're basically boned unless your GM says otherwise. It really is idiotic that plenty of special materials allow for shields, except you can't make this one type of shield (Except in 3.5, but shhh)

Liberty's Edge

I have been thinking about it for a minute, and I don't know if the RAW prevents tower shields from being made out of things other than wood. It does indeed say "this wooden shield" in the fluff text, but every item is stated to be made out of a material in it's fluff text. Where does it specifically state that tower shields cannot be made out of anything else? Particularly since we have numerous examples of them made out of non-wood materials?

Grand Lodge

TheJrade wrote:
I have been thinking about it for a minute, and I don't know if the RAW prevents tower shields from being made out of things other than wood. It does indeed say "this wooden shield" in the fluff text, but every item is stated to be made out of a material in it's fluff text. Where does it specifically state that tower shields cannot be made out of anything else? Particularly since we have numerous examples of them made out of non-wood materials?

The special materials rules for Mithral is where this comes from.

Mithral wrote:
Items not primarily of metal are not meaningfully affected by being partially made of mithral. (A longsword can be a mithral weapon, while a quarterstaff cannot.)

Since the towershield is described as being made of wood, you cannot make a mithral version.


Well, you CAN make one, it just doesn't do anything 'meaningful'.


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Force Tower is an enchanted mithril tower shield, so the non-enchanted version must exist. Not sure what it's stats would be though. I guess just the usual Mithril adjustments.


Buy a +1 Folding Mithral Buckler, fold it into a tower shield, enjoy mithral tower shield for about 5005 gp.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Doomed Hero wrote:
Force Tower is an enchanted mithril tower shield, so the non-enchanted version must exist. Not sure what it's stats would be though. I guess just the usual Mithril adjustments.

It could be argued that only exists due to magic, and you can’t make a non magic one.


Snakers wrote:
Buy a +1 Folding Mithral Buckler, fold it into a tower shield, enjoy mithral tower shield for about 5005 gp.

This. This is the only "legal" way to do it. It's even PFS legal.


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James Risner wrote:
Doomed Hero wrote:
Force Tower is an enchanted mithril tower shield, so the non-enchanted version must exist. Not sure what it's stats would be though. I guess just the usual Mithril adjustments.
It could be argued that only exists due to magic, and you can’t make a non magic one.

Which while I can understand I have to ask if it requires magic to make it then clearly we could make an unenchanted version. Or does it become wooden in an AMF.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Talonhawke wrote:
we could make an unenchanted version. Or does it become wooden in an AMF.

Yes

Your GM picks one:

  • You can make an unenchanted version and it works the same.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it works as wooden.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it is a heavier one with more ACP due to Mithril being more dense than wood.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, because the author didn't realize they make an illegal item.


James Risner wrote:
Talonhawke wrote:
we could make an unenchanted version. Or does it become wooden in an AMF.

Yes

Your GM picks one:

  • You can make an unenchanted version and it works the same.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it works as wooden.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, without magic and in AMF it is a heavier one with more ACP due to Mithril being more dense than wood.
  • You can't make an unenchanted one, because the author didn't realize they make an illegal item.

Well its not the only one so i doubt #4 but yeah i mean from a consistency stand point one has to be picked i just wonder which one PF would rule if they ever did.

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