How far away is the interdimensional space of a bag of holding?


Rules Questions


I'm asking this on behalf of a witch for an upcoming game, whose cat familiar is almost certainly going to be taking (very temporary) refuge inside her handy haversack during touch-and-go combat (despite having a higher armor class than the witch herself.)

My question is, how far away is something that's inside a closed bag of holding or a haversack with the flaps down? Presumably it's in a pocket dimension, but is it also considered to be within 1 mile for Empathic Link and the benefit to Stealth? The witch could pull her cat out of the backpack as a move action, but while in the interdimensional space, does it could as being in "arm's reach" for Alertness?


Where is the extradimensional space?
Is the 1 mile restriction applicable to 3 dimensions or more?

Scarab Sages

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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps Subscriber

It is basically in a different dimension. Where that dimension is exactly? No one knows. But its most certainly not withing 1 mile. Otherwise you'd regularly encounter floating bubbles of items from other people's handy haversacks.


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Woran wrote:
It is basically in a different dimension. Where that dimension is exactly? No one knows. But its most certainly not withing 1 mile. Otherwise you'd regularly encounter floating bubbles of items from other people's handy haversacks.

We normally only see the three spacial dimensions of the material. The ethereal overlaps with the material and yet we don't normally see it. If your familiar was on the Ethereal, overlapping you in the other three (or more) dimensions, the only question of importance is whether the ethereal is a mile distant from the material or not.

Familiars in bags of holding have the added complication of not being confirmed to fully overlap the material or not.

Scarab Sages

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Ultrace wrote:

I'm asking this on behalf of a witch for an upcoming game, whose cat familiar is almost certainly going to be taking (very temporary) refuge inside her handy haversack during touch-and-go combat (despite having a higher armor class than the witch herself.)

My question is, how far away is something that's inside a closed bag of holding or a haversack with the flaps down? Presumably it's in a pocket dimension, but is it also considered to be within 1 mile for Empathic Link and the benefit to Stealth? The witch could pull her cat out of the backpack as a move action, but while in the interdimensional space, does it could as being in "arm's reach" for Alertness?

No, they certaintly not consider adjacent or within a mile while in that extra dimension space. In effect, the contents of a bag of holding are nowhere.

While inside, the cat should be unable to determine sounds or smells from outside the haversack, so there's really no way to know when to "disembark" the haversack during combat.

The move action to "retrieve" things from the haversack is only for "items" and wouldn't apply to the cat, who is a creature, not an item. The cat should be able to leave whenever, using their own actions, provoided the haversack isn't sealed shut. That said, I don't think the cat can "poke it's head out" only, as I think entering or leaving the extradimensional space is an all or nothing affair.

Additionally, a living creature can only be inside a bag of holding or handy haversack for 10 minutes before they need to roll for suffocation...


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The distance is 'infinite'. There is no way to walk, run, fly or other wise use mundane travel methods to reach such a space. IMO they are considered beyond the reach of Empathic Link or other wise able to provide benefit unless that benefit can cross planar boundries or the range is not relevant. The only spells/effects that have any chance of reaching someone in an extradimensional space are those that can be used across planes/planar boundaries as they are in fact on another plane of existence albeit typically a very small, finite plane and are sometimes referred to as demiplanes.

I also sometimes think of them as a layer of the plane of existence where they are created from.

CRB, Environment wrote:
Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells.
CRB, Environment wrote:

Layered Planes

Infinities may be broken into smaller infinities, and planes into smaller, related planes. These layers are effectively separate planes of existence, and each layer can have its own features and qualities. Layers are connected to each other through a variety of planar gates, natural vortices, paths, and shifting borders.

Access to a layered plane from elsewhere usually happens on the first layer of the plane, which can be either the top or bottom layer, depending on the specific plane. Most fixed access points (such as portals and natural vortices) reach this layer, which makes it the gateway for other layers of the plane. The plane shift spell generally deposits the spellcaster on the first layer of the plane.


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The space is a different plane, so yeah...it's basically infinitely far away.


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Total cover for tiny familiars will keep them safe from most threats.
You can always allow a small sized version that can be carried by something a little stronger than your average witch


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Kayerloth wrote:

The distance is 'infinite'. There is no way to walk, run, fly or other wise use mundane travel methods to reach such a space. IMO they are considered beyond the reach of Empathic Link or other wise able to provide benefit unless that benefit can cross planar boundries or the range is not relevant. The only spells/effects that have any chance of reaching someone in an extradimensional space are those that can be used across planes/planar boundaries as they are in fact on another plane of existence albeit typically a very small, finite plane and are sometimes referred to as demiplanes.

I also sometimes think of them as a layer of the plane of existence where they are created from.

CRB, Environment wrote:
Demiplanes: This catchall category covers all extradimensional spaces that function like planes but have measurable size and limited access. Other kinds of planes are theoretically infinite in size, but a demiplane might be only a few hundred feet across. There are countless demiplanes adrift in reality, and while most are connected to the Astral Plane and Ethereal Plane, some are cut off entirely from the transitive planes and can only be accessed by well-hidden portals or obscure magic spells.
CRB, Environment wrote:

Layered Planes

Infinities may be broken into smaller infinities, and planes into smaller, related planes. These layers are effectively separate planes of existence, and each layer can have its own features and qualities. Layers are connected to each other through a variety of planar gates, natural vortices, paths, and shifting borders.

Access to a layered plane from elsewhere usually happens on the first layer of the plane, which can be either the top or bottom layer, depending on the specific plane. Most fixed access points (such as portals and natural vortices) reach this layer, which makes it the gateway for other layers of the plane. The plane shift spell generally deposits the spellcaster on the first layer of the plane.

Hekatonkhiers can just straight up punch through dimensional barriers, meaning that, in some sense, planes are close together.


Sort of? But not really.

Lnce per year they can make a jump that acts like a spell.

That seems more like "I can use magic" than "the planes are close together." At least to me.


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Yeah, it's using magic to jump between planes.

From a physical sense, there is no physical connection between universe. It is literally another set of dimensions in another universe.


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The cat is both there and not there. Schrodinger would be proud.


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Humorously, Schrodinger actually opposed the concept his example used (the "Copenhagen interpretation") - his boxed cat thought-experiment was intended to show how ridiculous it was.

This has been your random science moment.

EDIT: better link, dialogue altered. :D


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

There are two major theories in physics: Quantum Mechanics, and General Relativity, both created in the early 20th Century. They have proven to be capable of quite literally unprecedented predictive power, orders of magnitude better than any other physical law or theory ever posited.

They don't play well together. They cannot be correct as currently formulated. I won't bore everyone with the details. They involve pesky infinities at small scales.

Anyway, attempts to unify them (into a quantum theory of gravity) are... difficult. Like, 80+ years and we're still pretty much nowhere.

Anyway, in its bailiwick (without gravity making it go a bit crazy), quantum mechanics is the absolute pinnacle of science. Any suggestion that quantum mechanics is "wrong" is almost laughable. If it's wrong, the internet stops working. Cell phones stop working. Blu-rays stop working.

It's just not completely right.

And to make this post slightly on topic, a pocket dimension is another reality, and being in another reality is effectively infinitely far away.


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dragonhunterq wrote:

Total cover for tiny familiars will keep them safe from most threats.

You can always allow a small sized version that can be carried by something a little stronger than your average witch

How did I miss this in the equipment before? I'll definitely make sure she has this on hand. Her strength is pathetic, but most of her equipment is in the haversack, so she's still got plenty of weight available to carry this and her ten pound cat. Thanks!


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Chemlak wrote:

There are two major theories in physics: Quantum Mechanics, and General Relativity, both created in the early 20th Century. They have proven to be capable of quite literally unprecedented predictive power, orders of magnitude better than any other physical law or theory ever posited.

They don't play well together. They cannot be correct as currently formulated. I won't bore everyone with the details. They involve pesky infinities at small scales.

Anyway, attempts to unify them (into a quantum theory of gravity) are... difficult. Like, 80+ years and we're still pretty much nowhere.

Anyway, in its bailiwick (without gravity making it go a bit crazy), quantum mechanics is the absolute pinnacle of science. Any suggestion that quantum mechanics is "wrong" is almost laughable. If it's wrong, the internet stops working. Cell phones stop working. Blu-rays stop working.

It's just not completely right.

And to make this post slightly on topic, a pocket dimension is another reality, and being in another reality is effectively infinitely far away.

And of course, without relativity, GPS wouldn't work.


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Are we talking Hausdorff distance or Jaro-Winkler? Also: African or European swallow?


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Taken from D20PFSRD

Quote:

Bag, Handy Haversack

Aura moderate conjuration; CL 9th
Slot —; Price 2,000 gp; Weight 5 lbs.
DESCRIPTION
A backpack of this sort appears to be well made, well used, and quite ordinary. It has two side pouches, each of which appears large enough to hold about a quart of material. In fact, each is like a bag of holding and can actually hold material of as much as 2 cubic feet in volume or 20 pounds in weight. The large central portion of the pack can contain up to 8 cubic feet or 80 pounds of material. Even when so filled, the backpack always weighs only 5 pounds.
While such storage is useful enough, the pack has an even greater power. When the wearer reaches into it for a specific item, that item is always on top. Thus, no digging around and fumbling is ever necessary to find what a haversack contains. Retrieving any specific item from a haversack is a move action, but it does not provoke the attacks of opportunity that retrieving a stored item usually does.
Editor’s Note: Handy Haversack does not indicate the sort of space inside it other than to say it is “like a bag of holding” which is described as opening to a “non-dimensional space” whereas the rules on extradimensional spaces explicitly refer to bags of holding and handy haversacks as examples of extradimensional spaces.
CONSTRUCTION REQUIREMENTS
Craft Wondrous Item, secret chest; Cost 1,000 gp

The important part below...

Quote:

Extradimensional Spaces

A number of spells and magic items utilize extradimensional spaces, such as rope trick, a bag of holding, a handy haversack, and a portable hole. These spells and magic items create a tiny pocket space that does not exist in any dimension. Such items do not function, however, inside another extradimensional space. If placed inside such a space, they cease to function until removed from the extradimensional space. For example, if a bag of holding is brought into a rope trick, the contents of the bag of holding become inaccessible until the bag of holding is taken outside the rope trick. The only exception to this is when a bag of holding and a portable hole interact, forming a rift to the Astral Plane, as noted in their descriptions.

Going by this the extradimensional spaces in bags of holding do not actually exist on other planes... Rather they seem to exist locally in a 'magical space' created specifically for each item.

I would say ask your DM because it does appear to be open to interpretation.


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That editors note is completely provided by d20pfsrd and shouldn't be taken as anything.

The real note to take away is that "non-dimensional" space isn't defined and should probably rewritten as extradimensional space.


Claxon wrote:

That editors note is completely provided by d20pfsrd and shouldn't be taken as anything.

The real note to take away is that "non-dimensional" space isn't defined and should probably rewritten as extradimensional space.

It's also the reason I said I like to think of them as a (demi)planar layer, only connected to the original plane or top layer via whatever spell, ability or item that created the effect.

And to further complicate things some of the planes (I'm looking at you Ethereal and Shadow planes) you can in fact cross over by rather mundane methods (flying, walking etc,) without using much in the way of magic yourself. That said I do think it's a 'mundane' connection but a magical/supernatural connection has been established between the Prime and either the Ethereal or Shadow planes by *cough* 'normal' means that occur in a typical imagined high magic multiverse that many fantasy worlds model.

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