Grenade Arrow DCs

[Vrakk Kybosh]

I'm a little confused on how to interpret the reflex save DC for Grenade Arrows.
- Grenade Arrow I - Item Level 6, but uses the statistics of a level 1 grenade. Easy enough, you can attach a Frag, Shock, Smoke, or Sticky Bomb Grenade of Mk I stats and quality, so d6 to d8 damage or effect...
- However, do you calculate the DC using the arrow's level or the grenade's level? e.g. If my Dex is 18 (+4), is a Grenade Arrow I DC 14 (10+ 1/2 +4) or DC 17 (6/2 + 4)?

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

Only the stuff from the special line is determined by what grenade you are emulating. Price, item level, and as a result of item level the save DCs, are all based on the grenade arrow.

So a grenade arrow I that works as a frag grenade I is still a 6th level item, and calculates its save DC for the explode effect as a 6th level item.

[baggageboy]

This is good as it makes grenade arrows better which seems to be important due to the cost involved in procuring such.

[Owen K. C. Stephens]

baggageboy wrote:

This is good as it makes grenade arrows better which seems to be important due to the cost involved in procuring such.

Sure, the price is balanced as level 6 weapons, the save DC should work like level 6 weapons. And the flexibility of draw reloading a bow with quick reload allows pick-as-you fire full attacks with grenades, which increases the usefulness of arrow grenades over standard grenades, justifying the higher item level and cost (as long as the save DCs are at the correct level).

I mean, I PRESUME everyone making a grenade I with frag grenades would use frag grenade IIs...

[Vrakk Kybosh]

Awesome, always nice to have a design lead clear things up.

[Zwordsman]

still seems almost too costy to use.. and something I'll never really get to drop.

Though I'll probably see if Gm would allow cheap crafting if I supplied the arrow and grenade, and just used the crafting goo to reformat the grenade into arrow grenade

Granted I kind of love it.. but considering arrow's damage itself can not go up ever (which seems odd to me.... You'd think you could upgrade the bow materials, or upgrade the arrow materials over time)

Like I want that bow and such.. but seems like its a pretty expensive dead end. albeit really fun

Unless there is another way to add damage than versatile specialization.

Well.. I'm a mechanic so i'll probably keep it anyway cause it is neat and amusing and theoretically quiet. Bow, needler, some sorta energy pistol. Though i wish there was a small arms acid dart option too.. would've been eprfect

[Bloodrealm]

Grenades of any kind other than Smoke Grenades are so prohibitively expensive that nobody in their right mind would bother.

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

I mean, I PRESUME everyone making a grenade I with frag grenades would use frag grenade IIs...

I assume you mean "everyone making a Grenade Arrow I with frag grenades would use Frag Grenade IIs", but that isn't possible, since Grenade Arrow I can only act as a 1st-level grenade but a Frag Grenade II is a 4th-level item. You would need a Grenade Arrow II, which is more than twice the item level and nearly 8 times the price of a Frag Grenade II.

By the way, to act as the 14th-level Frag Grenade V you'd need the Grenade Arrow IV, which is a 20th-level item and a whopping 13 times the price of the grenade it would be emulating. That's more than 1/15 of the highest WBL in the game just to deal 10d6 damage in a 15 foot radius ONCE.
Please correct me if it's wrong somewhere but, if I do have my math right, you'd have to be a blithering idiot to buy Grenade Arrows.
A much better way to launch grenades from a distance is one of the two grenade launchers since they don't require you buy overpriced sticks, are low level items, and require Heavy Weapons Proficiency rather than Special Weapons Proficiency. Even then, as previously stated, it's only particularly useful for Smoke Grenades, which are the only grenades with an affordable price and useful effect. I might actually consider getting a level 1 grenade launcher loaded with 6 Smoke Grenades if I were a character with Heavy Weapons Proficiency, which is more than most people could probably say about any other grenades.

[Zwordsman]

Would be nice if bow proficiency allowed you to combine normal grenades with arrows..

The real reason theyr'e so damn expensive I suspect is because of demand.. Very few folks would be using bows well in that time period and even fewer still would use it in legit combat...
So they cost so much more because so few people make or sell them.

I hope a later book adds in a feat or something for tech arrows or something neat.

-----

I get shooting two gren in one round is strong.. but considering the relative dead end of that line and how the bow isn't terribly feesable as an actual weapon.. that its sadly not really that useful in the end. I don't imagine folks would get long arms and bow.
or maybe just not on my mechanic. Though I really do like the sound of acid dart rifle.. would have to see about a small arms version with gms

[Vidmaster7]

Hmm can you fire multiple grenade arrows a round? I feel like that could put out some damage.

[Bloodrealm]

Yes, you can fire multiple grenade arrows in a round. But you know what? You can use Quick Draw or a grenade launcher for multiple grenades in one round, too, and it doesn't require Special Weapons Proficiency or grenade arrows.

[whew]

You never need to spend a move action to reload your bow, you can change grenade types at will, and it only takes up one hand when you're not using it.

That said, the bow still sucks unless the campaign is going to be full of enemy elves or something that can be looted for free grenade arrows.

[Zwordsman]

I really wish that the gre. Arrows sold in batchs for that cost.

And they could make single target for like 1/2 cost of grenades. Same effect or damage. But no aoe on it.
Thats be interesting
Well still want a bow with all elements on it. If fusions can work thst way. Need to reafd up. I dont think they do

Sidenote a out choising grenade arrow on the fly

Pretty sure grenlauncher has a line that says you can specify which gre ade loaded you shot. So you can still chose on command. Though o ly up to the ....6? Thats loaded

Phone typed. Sorry fpr typos

[Bloodrealm]

6 for the Level 1 launcher, 12 for the Level 8 launcher. And yes, it does say you can pick whichever one you want to fire.

[whew]

The grenade launcher is a heavy weapon. The bow needs less STR and fewer feats, so it shouldn't be as good.

So the bow does have a niche: it's for high-DEX, low-STR non-soldiers who want to use grenades at really long range. For sniper-rifle-friendly campaigns only?

[Zwordsman]

Yeah but you don't get proficiency with only the grenade launcher.. you get it with all heavy weapons when you pick it up.. So that feat is already better.
and it is already far better due to cost and literally using any grenade you find through the course of the game.

Not saying Bow should be better.. but currently it is weird.
I get its archaic... and if they didn't have grenade arrows, there would be no discussion about why its bad.
but the fact they're putting in something like grenade arrows opens up the whole question of why its so hard to use them, and why there are no other tech arrows, or bow modifications. Sure wood and string is a level 1 archiac.. but why no lv 10 carbon fiber, high tension metal string (or something) and taser arrows? (I don't have book but.. bow is lv1 and always lv 1 yeah? meaning yo ucan't really put fusions on it much either.)
With the addition of grenade arrows the bow went from "primitive usage" to "something that comes up even in later areas"
Had there been some kind of progression then the grenade arrows would come off more of a specialty item-Kind of like how grenades are currently to folks with small arms/long arms. As it stands the grenade arrows are more "the entire point of the bow's existence to players" because there is nothing else going for it yet has something truly unique. (Excluding "start from low tech world and learn as you level up" or for the random weapon creation on a world without tech--which honestly speaking the opportunity cost is too high for that kind of "precaution")

Honestly with the cost, that soldier would probably never use it due to costs and having to shuffle around with it+his main weapon(s) because bow damage will never truly progress(that I know of).
Other than I guess being significantly more quiet, why would someone snag the bow over a sniper? yeah grenade damage looks nice but the cost is so high, the bow doesnt' have nearly the range of the sniper.. and while folks dont think the sniper does enough damage (seems fine to me) the bow does way less.

Would do more damage with a Bolter I think. sure pain to reload but it goes along. Plus.. you can fire grenade arrows from a bolter. So all you lose over that is the "free reload, fire two gren arrows in a round" the bow does. Of course.. the grenade arrows could have easily been meant for the Bolter first and only, and its just a coincidence the bow can use them. Though the Ammo usage on a bolter confuses me.. I guess to use grenade arrows in a bolter.. YOu'd have to pay for two arrows for one? So yeah... actually the grenade arrows seriously can't have been intended for the bolter then.
So back to the Bow and the above weirdness.

granted this is all core. So plenty of pastabilities later.

[Bloodrealm]

whew wrote:

The grenade launcher is a heavy weapon. The bow needs less STR and fewer feats, so it shouldn't be as good.

So the bow does have a niche: it's for high-DEX, low-STR non-soldiers who want to use grenades at really long range. For sniper-rifle-friendly campaigns only?

You mean "high-Dex, low-Strength non-Soldiers who are willing to waste a feat on Special Weapons Proficiency and have multiple times their intended WBL that they are willing to spend on weak damage-dealing consumables." No, wait, Exocortex Mechanics get Longarms, so it's only one feat away from Heavy Weapons for the launchers.

[Deadmanwalking]

Bloodrealm wrote:

You mean "high-Dex, low-Strength non-Soldiers who are willing to waste a feat on Special Weapons Proficiency and have multiple times their intended WBL that they are willing to spend on weak damage-dealing consumables." No, wait, Exocortex Mechanics get Longarms, so it's only one feat away from Heavy Weapons for the launchers.

In fairness, an Exocortex Mechanic who wants to use Heavy Weapons other than the Grenade Launcher need a second Feat for Versatile Specialization.

The rest stands, though. Bows are pretty shaky, quality-wise. They'd maybe be worth it for low Str non-Soldier grenade-users...if grenades were remotely reasonably priced.

[Nyerkh]

Not to add to the confusion, but do we have a better idea now regarding the interaction between 'nade arrows and crossbolters with their up to 8 arrows-per-shot usage ?

Paying 8 to get the effect of 1 seems absurd, but so does having 8 grenades blow up on the same target for each attack ...
Or is it a case of "if grenade arrow, then only one is needed and possible, no matter the normal usage" ?

[Zwordsman]

I looked around about taht after writing that giant block of text

near as I can tell... there is no notation about it. I was hoping it would have mentioned somethinga bout it when the description talked about bolters using gren arrs.

[Bonnapart]

Does someone has an answer about how work bolter with grenade arrow?
And one other question, does the dommage pr a bow (1d6) stack with the dommage of an grenade arrow ?

[Bonnapart]

And one other question, when I fire grenade arrow, what do I need to Select, Monster or intersection (CA 5)?