| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A character can have a secret identity if they want, the only unique thing here is the alignment change.Also the immunity to scrying the identity you're not currently in. If someone of a different class wants to have a secret identity, all someone with the capacity to scry you needs to do is scry your secret identity when you're out shopping for groceries and your cover is blown. The Vigilante never has this problem.
Not quite. Inner Sea Intrigue introduced rules to gain and maintain what amounts to a watered-down Vigilante secret identity. You do gain the immunity to scrying.
|
All player characters can be famous by their adventuring deeds, Vigilante's class features let them be famous by way of being nobles, social celebrities, and business owners, something not normally associated with adventures outside of GM machinations.
Anyone can have a secret identity, but to a Vigilante it is not just a secret or a costume, but an actual separate identity with its own Alignment and mindset, which is why mechanics are involved.
The first is something player characters can have, just like the Vigilante that's a backstory or character choices. If a Vigilante
A character can have a secret identity if they want, the only unique thing here is the alignment change.
They can have, whether present or in their backstory, if the GM allows, a player can't just declare they're the son of a noble with Prestige and clout or they own a prosperous business and get discounts unless the GM is okay with that.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The Vigilante hate is because in order to play them you and your whole party is forced into humouring a very, VERY specific roleplaying niche, swapping identities is time-consuming and disruptive to the game, the dual alignment makes no cosmological/metaphysical sense with the way the game works, the social abilities only really work if your game stays in one small area, and the combat abilities (while certainly capable, as many are quick to point out) are totally redundant with every other class if you decide to ignore the social identity, meaning there's no point in playing a Vigilante if you ignore it.
I think I can sum it up in 6 words, though: WE GET IT. YOU LIKE BATMAN.
Inner Sea Intrigue introduced rules to gain and maintain what amounts to a watered-down Vigilante secret identity.
And that's exactly what I said they should have done instead as soon as they announced the Vigilante class.
It also doesn't help that the playtest version was a broken mess, which kind of colours people's opinions on the class even after they made the fixes for release.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Vigilante hate is because in order to play them you and your whole party is forced into humouring a very, VERY specific roleplaying niche, swapping identities is time-consuming and disruptive to the game, the dual alignment makes no cosmological/metaphysical sense with the way the game works, the social abilities only really work if your game stays in one small area, and the combat abilities (while certainly capable, as many are quick to point out) are totally redundant with every other class if you decide to ignore the social identity, meaning there's no point in playing a Vigilante if you ignore it.
I think I can sum it up in 6 words, though: WE GET IT. YOU LIKE BATMAN.
As been discussed, this is all blatantly not true.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Vigilante hate is because in order to play them you and your whole party is forced into humouring a very, VERY specific roleplaying niche, swapping identities is time-consuming and disruptive to the game, the dual alignment makes no cosmological/metaphysical sense with the way the game works, the social abilities only really work if your game stays in one small area, and the combat abilities (while certainly capable, as many are quick to point out) are totally redundant with every other class if you decide to ignore the social identity, meaning there's no point in playing a Vigilante if you ignore it.
I think I can sum it up in 6 words, though: WE GET IT. YOU LIKE BATMAN.
^ didn't read the class
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
The Vigilante hate is because in order to play them you and your whole party is forced into humouring a very, VERY specific roleplaying niche, swapping identities is time-consuming and disruptive to the game, the dual alignment makes no cosmological/metaphysical sense with the way the game works, the social abilities only really work if your game stays in one small area, and the combat abilities (while certainly capable, as many are quick to point out) are totally redundant with every other class if you decide to ignore the social identity, meaning there's no point in playing a Vigilante if you ignore it.
I think I can sum it up in 6 words, though: WE GET IT. YOU LIKE BATMAN.
Hmm. I like the Vigilante class, but really don't like Batman. Perhaps I don't exist.
Also, vigilante has ways to make spider man, the hulk, falcon, grizzly, Raven, but tinkerer alchemist or simply investigator with a bunch of equipment tricks still makes a better batman.
I have no interest in playing batman or really any comic book hero.
Millionaire Bruce Wayne yada yada yada seems a tad masturbatory to me.
Tony Stark would be just as bad.
Maybe the Tick, but I'd rather do the Roach from Cerebus (the Earth-Pig)
Still a bit too schticky.
Really though,
Scarlet Pimpernel rescuing people from Galt, yeah.
A vigilante based Callistrian agent.
Masked Does Not Mean Spandex Tights.
There are some GMs I would never ever play a vigilante with.
You need to have a cause and a storyline to make it work.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A hedonistic noble who actually runs the city's thieves guild as an information network for the monarchy, keeping the crime at a reasonable level and directed at the opponents of the crown.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really not sure the Vig should be a class ... it seems like it's something that could be applied to anybody. Yeah, I know, OMG B4tm4n LOL. But I can't see any reason why a cleric or wizard or anybody couldn't do the whole Secret Identity thing. Seems like it should have just been a feat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really not sure the Vig should be a class ... it seems like it's something that could be applied to anybody. Yeah, I know, OMG B4tm4n LOL. But I can't see any reason why a cleric or wizard or anybody couldn't do the whole Secret Identity thing. Seems like it should have just been a feat.
I would say an archetype. I could see that. I will say I have wanted to play a Zorro type character before and it covers that well, But it does feel like the whole class takes other classes makes them a hair weaker (well except for some that is makes stronger) then adds a secret identity. I could totes see it as a feat chain or archetype.
|
Then your GM is literally soft-balling the encounter to you. This isn't meant to impugn your GM, it's just a statement of fact.
Well, these were canned adventures, so the GM didn't have a lot to do with the CR. I also don't accept not having a creature in their described terrain being a CR reducer as fact, since one of the fights was in a pool of water, which is likely an even worse location to fight them. Even then, a black dragon can fly, just because they can move easily in a bog doesn't mean much, except that they can take a 5 foot step.
Who said anything about charging in that quote? I didn't.
You said that vigilante's could catch up to fighters in damage once mad rush comes online, they have to charge to do that.
I said that the encounter involves a wide range of skills that the Fighter can't manage, which is perfectly true.
It can affect a number of skills, but outside of survival to not fall in quicksand, or swim to get out of it I don't know why a a fighter would usually care. Dex based fighters can have as good of stealth and acrobatics as a vigilante if they want, though most fighters just won't care at all about the penalties cause they won't bother with either skill. Considering most patches of quicksand are 20 feet wide or larger, I don't see too many vigilantes bothering to jump over them until they practically can't fail because the chance of having to swim out just isn't worth it. I also don't see how effects to perception favor either class. And are you telling me vigilantes are going to be taking survival and swim when they have all the social skills, UMD, acrobatics, stealth, perception, disguise, disable device and kn:local as class skills?
As to it being tailored to the vigilante, as I noted, the same logic applies to almost any terrain... Realistically, if you want to talk about a class that's only suitable for certain kinds of campaigns, it's the Fighter. Most of his fixes don't come online until most people are already halfway through their games, and the types of encounters that he can meaningfully contribute in without significant outside assistance are actually quite small.
I kind of don't know what to say to this. I've encountered more gods, demigods and demon lords than I've had fights in marshes. The most common obstacles I find are walls and tight quarters, and most of the really challenging terrain won't be overcome without magic. I'll admit, I would like the fighter options for skills and saves to come online quicker than level 3 or 5, but at those levels the game is more of a craps shoot anyway, it's only mid-level that skill investment really takes over from dice luck when it comes to success. As for fitting the fighter in any campaign, well, pretty much every campaign I've played has had a fair amount of combat, and fighters are good at combat. I've rolled way more attack rolls than diplomacy or bluff, and even in a very combat light/skills game, a fighter can still manage a high number of skill ranks. And aside from that, aid another is a DC 10 check, so even minimal, or no investment at all, still allows the fighter to aid in a large number of circumstances.
Related, look at the classes from a teamwork perspective, given that Pathfinder is team oriented. In a swamp/sewer/mountain pass/dungeon corridor the Fighter will either have to go first and eat all the hazards, hoping they can power through, or they need to stand back while the rogue scouts and then try to dash up to help if/when things take things take a turn for the worse. An avenger vigilante can use aid another to assist the rogue's checks, help them scout, even help them disarm, and when the fight starts they're right there with them. Once combat kicks off the fighter wades in and with a little luck can provide a flank for the rogue to boost the rogue's damage. The vigilante can make the target flat-footed against all attacks for an entire round, boosting the entire group's damage against that target, and allowing the rogue their sneak attack from whatever position is most advantageous, not just a flank. More than that, if the fight is against some mid-range CR=APL type enemies, the avenger can actually feint a different target than the one they're attacking, dropping their own opponent while helping the rogue and/or other party members drop theirs, and they do all that while spending significantly less character resource.
That's not how you avoid traps with a fighter in the party. Fighter goes first with rogue 5 feet behind. Rogue still spots traps before the fighter steps in them, but fighter is at the front in case of ambush. If you're a stealth focused party, then great, a couple of you can scout ahead, but seldom do I find stealth so common that potions/scrolls of invisibility aren't good enough for the handful of times you really can't be seen. Even if you do stealth, it's not like an archer, or two weapon fighter can't manage a decent stealth, while aid another is a DC 10. Even in the case you present, a fighter trying to flank an enemy won't always be the best option, and feinting isn't a guarantee either. You still have to roll for it, opponents can use their sense motive skill instead of BAB+wis, you take a penalty against non-humanoids, creatures with low intelligence, and it doesn't work at all against mindless creatures. To say nothing of other creatures who just can't be caught flat-footed. A vigilante is usually just short of dropping a CR=APL challenge in one round while fighter builds designed to do so usually will. A vigilante giving up it's best attack almost definitely isn't going to drop a CR=APL challenge in a round. Even with the best case scenario of have a class with sneak attack who take advantage of the flat-footed condition, most are usually going to build for their own somewhat reliable way to get sneak attack damage instead of relying on another character. So you're really just trading an attack for whatever action they were going to use.
I mean, I don't want to say there aren't situations that aren't going to favor the vigilante, but this looks a lot more like a comment from one of those threads where people refuse to admit that the core rogue isn't the best class ever because everything they need to be good is going to happen all the time, and nothing that helps other classes is relevant. A vigilante does have easier access to skills, no doubt, and can be fairly good at certain int, wis and cha skills. Their talents also allow for easy access to certain feats, or feat like abilities, as well as some abilities that either require magic or are simply unique to the vigilante. But we're also talking about the vigilante being a better vigilante than the fighter, and even then it can be very close. We're not talking about how a fighter has a much easier time having both good fort and will saves than the vigilante. How a fighter can have an aura boosting will saves of allies. How they have an easier time moving full speed in heavy armor. How they have easier access to some good feats like cut/smash from the sky, greater weapon focus, flight mastery. Options for DR/- up to DR 18/-, or dual wielding falcatas with only a -2 penalty to attack using either strength or dex for attack bonus. Archetypes that allow for 2 times strength to damage on every attack, or being able to fly multiple times a day. And all that's without the stamina system, which recommends giving it to fighters for free.
You said that vigilante's could catch up to fighters in damage once mad rush comes online, they have to charge to do that.
Avenger vigilantes have the same # of feats as fighters do. There are also a couple of options beyond mad rush for finesse/thrown builds to gain some very large damage boosts. Basically its just the weapon training bonus that an avenger lacks compared to fighter.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Is there an option similar to lethal grace for throwing that doesn't appear on archives of nethys, cause I'm not seeing anything. Lethal grace only applies to melee attacks. Regardless, throwing is like, the worst combat style, so I don't see a lot of vigilantes going that way. Vigilantes do have the same number of feats as fighters, but not the same quality of feats (better talents though). Only counting as 1/2 fighter levels means a vigilante is never getting greater weapon specialization. And I wouldn't discount the advantage weapon training provides at higher levels. Those two options plus gloves of dueling account for +6 to attack and +8 to damage over the vigilante.
As for lethal grace, well, the swashbuckler really shows that +lvl to damage is what it takes for a one hander to compete with two hander damage, so you probably don't want to go one handed. It's useful for two weapon fighting, but even then it lacks the accuracy to do decent damage. At least it used to. Take 'em Alive can fix that, but it's both not PFS legal, and means dealing non lethal damage. I still consider it the one true build for avenger though. Nothing else I've run has managed to come close to matching the fighters numbers in combat.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm really not sure the Vig should be a class ... it seems like it's something that could be applied to anybody. Yeah, I know, OMG B4tm4n LOL. But I can't see any reason why a cleric or wizard or anybody couldn't do the whole Secret Identity thing. Seems like it should have just been a feat.I would say an archetype. I could see that. I will say I have wanted to play a Zorro type character before and it covers that well, But it does feel like the whole class takes other classes makes them a hair weaker (well except for some that is makes stronger) then adds a secret identity. I could totes see it as a feat chain or archetype.Why have it have to be either?
This just goes back to how it was a terrible idea years ago for Leadership to have been made a feat and for it to have been left a feat, whereas we've finally managed to get to the point of being capable of conceptualizing the existence of subsystems that aren't locked behind a feat or only available to a single class or two.
Plus, what on earth about being able to play superhero in a fantasy RPG is really worth sacrificing part of your character's core abilities for?
For playing it in a game based around intrigue instead of the standard hack and slash. there is actually a whole book on playing an intrigue campaign. in fact its the one the vigilante is out of.
Also I'll give up w/e you want to play a super hero...
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think some people don't like the class in a non-urban setting because it's frustrating to have some abilities (even if they are not the main part of a very well-designed class) that seems useless or hard to use.
A lot of people including myself like to use almost 100% of what your character can do. Having a decent use for that "very specific ability" makes you feel smart and happy. The same goes for abilities like Countersong, Tracking, Woodland Stride....
By not having Renown up all the time, you feel like loosing some of your potential. But of course it's just my opinion.
However I am convinced that the Vigilante is by far one of the best class for this game. It's strong, offers variety, has flavor and allows you to play Batman.
One of my player was a Vigilante in our Council of Thieves, so far he's his favorite character in 10 years of DnD.
People hate the Vigilante?? I know it can step on toes but I thought the concept is solid enough...
Yes, you could make an archetype to go over every class. Of course, balancing all those different archetypes so that they don't end up being the new only thing or just another "Trap" will eat all the creative energy that was better put to use elsewhere. They did fine, if it doesn't suit your tastes, that's OK too. If you are mad because no one should have options that don't suit you, seek help.
Who suggested making an archetype for every class? An optional rule system would have served very well.
|
Yes, you could make an archetype to go over every class. Of course, balancing all those different archetypes so that they don't end up being the new only thing or just another "Trap" will eat all the creative energy that was better put to use elsewhere. They did fine, if it doesn't suit your tastes, that's OK too. If you are mad because no one should have options that don't suit you, seek help.Who suggested making an archetype for every class? An optional rule system would have served very well.
Sounds like excellent design space for the Variant Multi-classing Rules from Unchained to me...
|
|
Take 'em Alive can fix that, but it's both not PFS legal, and means dealing non lethal damage. I still consider it the one true build for avenger though. Nothing else I've run has managed to come close to matching the fighters numbers in combat.Out of interest, is there a reason Take 'em Alive is banned for PFS?
Likely they didn't feel it was balanced with the other options. Most talents are worth 2 feats. Being able to deal nonlethal without a penalty is worth a decent trait. Plus 5 to attack and damage is worth roughly 7 feats and a trait. All in all it's about 8 feats worth of bonuses. It also stacks with every other option the vigilante can take. The fact that it has to be nonlethal damage doesn't really hamper it enough to bring it back in balance with other options.
Although the typo doesn't really help things either.
|
|
Regular play usually ends at 12, but there's both seeker level content and modules. So seeing +3 to attack and damage would be pretty common and +4 still a definite possibility. Technically +5 is higher than you're going to see, but even at +3 it 5 feats worth. Many talents won't even have their second benefit come into play until seeker levels. I also don't think the scaling thing is disingenuous, considering that's how many class features work, but if you want to add "over the course of play" to that comment, that's fine with me.
|
|
"Over the course of play" would make the statement not be disengenous, yes, the previous statement gave the impression that the talent immediately gave you that high of a bonus to attack and damage.
Looking down from the ceiling yes, plenty of abilities and feats give you high bonuses... once you're high up.
As for the numbers at high level play, comparing it to Power Attack takes some of the impact (and you can have both).
|
|
"Over the course of play" would make the statement not be disengenous, yes, the previous statement gave the impression that the talent immediately gave you that high of a bonus to attack and damage.
Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I'm just used to thinking of vigilante talents as abilities that roll out their benefits over time, so I wasn't thinking of the statement being taken otherwise.
|
|
"Over the course of play" would make the statement not be disengenous, yes, the previous statement gave the impression that the talent immediately gave you that high of a bonus to attack and damage.Sorry, that wasn't my intention. I'm just used to thinking of vigilante talents as abilities that roll out their benefits over time, so I wasn't thinking of the statement being taken otherwise.
No worries :3
Has anyone tried the Cabalist or Wedlock? How well do they hold up?
Definitely not worth the equivalent of 8 Feats, but as a quicker-progressing version of Weapon Training that applies to all weapons but doesn't work against undead, Take 'Em Alive definitely is worth more than a single talent with no prerequisites.
|
|
Definitely not worth the equivalent of 8 Feats...
Additional traits shows that 2 traits is worth a feat. Quain martial artist is a trait that adds +1 damage. Merciful Scimitar is a trait that allows you to not take the penalties from dealing non lethal with a lethal weapon. Weapon Focus is a feat for +1 to attack. Weapon specialization is a feat for +2 to damage.
Mathematically, it all adds up. 5 feats for the bonus to attack. 2 for +4 to damage. 1 for not taking a penalty on non lethal and the last +1 to damage. It does only apply to non lethal attacks, but it also applies to any weapon and the bonus to attack is higher than what can usually be attained through feats. It also stacks with the weapon focus/specialization feats. Just because the last bonus comes late doesn't mean it's not part of the ability.
I quite like the class, though I haven't had the chance to play one yet. I've got a pretty spiffy idea for one based on one of the archetypes I wrote, though. ^_^
Did you write everything relating to Gray Maidens or just the prc and vigilante archetype?
|
|
I quite like the class, though I haven't had the chance to play one yet. I've got a pretty spiffy idea for one based on one of the archetypes I wrote, though. ^_^Did you write everything relating to Gray Maidens or just the prc and vigilante archetype?
To my recollection she wrote everything except the magical helm, which is from Shattered Star. It's my favourite chapter from the AG ^w^