Basically, I'm wondering about improving magic items that "act as" this or "function as if it were" that... the Demonspike Pauldrons come to mind as a prime example. http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateEquipment/wondrousItems/shoulder s.html#_demonspike-pauldrons
They "act as +2 armor spikes"... Could I up that to +4? Add Flaming, Holy, whatever? Same question with something like the Clawhand Shield.
you CAN but you'd have to work with your DM for a fair formula pricing.
For example, if a magical sword is 4 k gold. Is it worth a 2k magic sword plus another 2k? or times 2k? or maybe 2 k squared. You can't math it out, but you can subjectively determine what it should be worth.
Cant math it out? Why not?
350: Masterwork Armor Spikes
8000: +2 Enhancement Bonus
That leaves an even 6k cost for the remaining abilities. Clearly they are not an enhancement bonus equivalent.
toastedamphibian wrote: Cant math it out? Why not?
350: Masterwork Armor Spikes
8000: +2 Enhancement Bonus
That leaves an even 6k cost for the remaining abilities. Clearly they are not an enhancement bonus equivalent.
Lets apply that logic to magic weapons
A +1 sword is 2,000
A +2 sword is 8,000
So a +3 sword should be 14,000
And a +4 sword should be 20,000
.. but that's not the case.
Part of the downside to some of the magic items is that they do limit you at a certain plus. Thats a design consideration you have to eyeball if you change that assumption.
Actually, if you look at these things, NONE of them are cheaper than their base items. Also, you bad math'ed.
+1: 2k
+2: 8k
+3: 18k
+4: 32k
+5: 50k
+6: 72k
+7: 98k
+8: 128k
+9: 162k
+10:200k
You were just adding 6k more.
There's no reason that the formula can't apply.
Deomonspikes cost 14,350 to manufacture. That's 50 for the item, 300 for the base masterwork, 8k for the +2, and a 6k 'tax' for putting armor spikes in a non-armor slot.
Clawhand shield is 8158. That's 8 for the Heavy Shield, 150 for the masterwork, 4k for the +2, and a 4k 'tax' for making it out of a non-wood, non-metal material, but have it work like mithral.
There's no reason that the formula can't be applied.
Eh... Probably not a "Tax" for being in a non armor spike fashion. Rather call it the (combined price of the the non +2 armor spike bits)*1.5
Or whatever.
Also, as a DM, I would probably not allow it in this case, depending upon exactly how I decide to interpret the wording of the combination of the pauldrons and armor spike enhancement bonus. It potentially allows for something like +19 equivalent armor spikes for 400k. Yikes.
um how much is a tax on the non-armour slot and how much for the bleed damage? how much (if anything) for the ability to share the enhancement bonus of actual armour spikes? are any of them static, or scaling? if scaling, is it linear or a squared modifier?
There is not enough information to accurately calculate it. A lot of unique abilities are 'eyeballed' anyway.
BNW is right, it's largely guesswork.
Although to be fair in this instance it is very likely to work out as a static modifier but I would still probably add in a premium for each plus added and if it works out its a little over priced refund the premium in extra loot later.
It's easier to give players extra goodies later than it is too take their toys away from them.
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I did not bad math. You missed the point. Try looking at it again, this time without dismissing it because it's not the answer that you like.
Is the pauldrons ability treated like a +1, +2, +1/2, or a flat add on? You don't know. Some items like this should be a flat cost, and some get better as the plus increases.
You bad mathed. You VERY bad mathed. You can't apply a linear price increase to an exponential system. Period. That's bad math.
toastedamphibian wrote: Eh... Probably not a "Tax" for being in a non armor spike fashion. Rather call it the (combined price of the the non +2 armor spike bits)*1.5
Or whatever.
Also, as a DM, I would probably not allow it in this case, depending upon exactly how I decide to interpret the wording of the combination of the pauldrons and armor spike enhancement bonus. It potentially allows for something like +19 equivalent armor spikes for 400k. Yikes.
Important note for you, you can only apply upto the total equivalent of +10 to the armor spikes, and the stuff on the "armor" doesn't affect the spikes at all. It could be argued that the base pauldrons should be able to take an enchantment that isn't related to the weapons under that logic... but it wouldn't affect the armor spikes. At all.
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Zarius wrote: You bad mathed. You VERY bad mathed. You can't apply a linear price increase to an exponential system. Period. That's bad math. that was kind of his point. He was providing an example where in a vacuum with just two numbers you can only guess whether the progression is linear or exponential.
Regardless of the additional abilities, we do have a functioning formula for calculating enhancement bonuses and associated cost, and this formula at least fits within the price of special magic weapons and armor. Using that, you can easily and simply increase the cost of the item in question proportionate to the new enhancement as if you were uograding an existing typical magic weapon. It's not difficult nor does it require much more work on either your part or the GM's to figure out the new price.
Zarius wrote:
Important note for you, you can only apply upto the total equivalent of +10 to the armor spikes, and the stuff on the "armor" doesn't affect the spikes at all.
+1 armor spikes with +9 worth of bonuses and +5 pauldrons clearly work. So atleast +14 weapon is achievable. Even if your looking at something more modest, the pauldrons still provide a huge cost savings, in addition to their other benifts.
BigNorseWolf wrote:
Lets apply that logic to magic weapons
The hell you talking about? The "logic" used is "subtract known costs, see whats left". Cost of enhancement bonuses and equivalent abilites are known. For weapons it is bonus*bonus*2000. It costs less than a +3 weapon, so other abilities are accounted for with the other 6k cost.
The concern is if the item is fair and balanced at the calculated price, not that the cost is some mysterious unfathomable entity.
We are not touching any of the abilities included in the 6k, and that is already smaller than the weapon component so any multipliers are already included there.
Some unique items are difficult to peg a price breakdown for. This is not one of them. A +3 Flaming Demonspike would cost 32000+6000+350. Unless a DM rules otherwise or that it is not allowed.
The only real cause for concern here is Quote: ...use the greater of the two enhancement bonuses to attack and damage—either from the armor spikes (if any) or the demonspike pauldrons.
Clawhand Shield: Wow, never saw that thing before. Quite the steal for casters. Is an even 3k above the cost of an appropriately enchanted mithral shield. See no reason why increasing its enhancement bonus would cost any more than it would for any other +2 shield.
The Claw Hand Shield is a bit of trap item. You can't use one-handed weapons while swallowed whole, and Claw Hand Shield does nothing to circumvent that restriction.
Meh. Its a heavy shield with no ACP, no arcane failure, and that counts as a free hand for somatic components. The claw attack is comparatively irrelevant I would think. Extra AC for 3k over the standard wizards mithral buckler.
Surely specific beats general. It specifically states if grappled/pinned/swallowed you can attack. That explicitly circumvents the one-handed limitation. Being treated as a one handed weapon is more for how it interacts with other, unstated, rules - such as power attack.
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Darksol the Painbringer wrote: The Claw Hand Shield is a bit of trap item. You can't use one-handed weapons while swallowed whole, and Claw Hand Shield does nothing to circumvent that restriction. It circumvents that restriction right in the description, by saying that its user can do so.
toastedamphibian wrote: Meh. Its a heavy shield with no ACP, no arcane failure, and that counts as a free hand for somatic components. The claw attack is comparatively irrelevant I would think. Extra AC for 3k over the standard wizards mithral buckler. I'm not worried about the claw attack, either, since the LAST time I got swallowed, I just created Kitsune Flambe. That mimic was NOT happy with me.
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