RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8
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And for scribing to spellbooks/formula books, I have run Wizards (and Alchemists) sense my PC -1 in season zero. I currently have over a dozen active PCs that have Books...(not counting Witches - who have something similar, but different).
Sense and since have very different definitions. I assume that you mean 'since'.
Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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This is a case where not allowing Take 10 would just be dumb. Because to be able to copy spells you have to have lots of quiet time on your hands to begin with. You shouldn't be trying to write spells at a moment when there's "drama" or "tension".I try really hard never to consider the actions of the person running a table for me to be "dumb". Perhaps they know something I don't (they are running the game after all), or perhaps I am just looking at it thru "personal goggles" and just seeing whatever the issue is from only my perspective. Sometimes I slip up and do consider what the judge did to be ... less than "good gaming", but when that happens, I like to think I keep it to myself (at least until after the game when I might discuss it with the judge to gain a better understanding).
There are absolutely cases when someone running the table does something I'd call "dumb". Just because the GM has the authority to make a decision doesn't make every decision he makes a good decision.
In any event, the ability to use the Take 10 rule is in the control of the judge running the table. That's one thing the FAQ makes clear. Whenever we (as players) wish to "Take 10" we have to ok it with the person running the table we are at. "Can I Take 10 on that?" or even "When I Take 10 I get...". That's all it takes. That way the judge knows what we're doing and can rule on wither the rule applies or not. Kind of like when we do a skill check using a Masterwork Tool - we need to mention this when we are using the rule, as the judge controls that aspect of the game. ...
** spoiler omitted **
The GM absolutely has the authority to forbid taking 10. But it can still be a dumb decision.
Consider:
A level 10 PC comes across a series of twenty 10ft wide pits, 10ft deep. If he falls in he'd take a bit of damage and climb out. He has enough Dex to jump across on a Take 10. Should the GM insist on rolling because of "drama"? No, that's lame, 1d6 damage won't hurt the PC and rolling 20 times and maybe using a few wand charges to heal isn't interesting.
Then the PC comes to a 10ft lava pit and need to jump across. Falling in is bad. Like, 20d6 fire damage per round bad. But he PC has no penalty to Acrobatics so he'd make the jump on rolling a 10. Is it reasonable for the GM to deny Take 10? Yes says the FAQ, because this is a big dramatic moment.
The PC finds a scroll with a spell that could be extremely useful in the next battle in the scenario. He could use the scroll, or he could copy it into his spellbook and keep the spell afterwards. However, if he fails he won't have the spell anymore for the big battle. Is this a reasonable moment for the GM to prohibit Take 10 on Spellcraft? Sure. It's an exciting risk to take.
A while later a slightly singed PC comes to the courtroom and has to present three pieces of evidence against the BBEG. He's got a high diplomacy and thinks he can auto-succeed on Take 10. Should the GM deny it? Probably, because auto-succeeding at the climactic challenge of the scenario isn't very dramatic.
A week later he's sitting in a nice quiet library copying some spells. He can make the DC on a take 10. Should the GM deny it? No, the adventure is already over, there's no more drama or tension to be had, and there is no danger of any kind since the GM already ran out of monsters in his scenario.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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A while later a slightly singed PC comes to the courtroom and has to present three pieces of evidence against the BBEG. He's got a high diplomacy and thinks he can auto-succeed on Take 10. Should the GM deny it? Probably, because auto-succeeding at the climactic challenge of the scenario isn't very dramatic.
What one person considers dramatic, another may not.
I would much rather Take 10 and give some role-play around it than roll. If I roll, there is a high probability of me doing much worse than normal because of the way that skill rolls are done. I know it did not enthuse me the night I was in a scenario with a lot of social elements and my character with a +20 Bluff failed once and never got above a 27 total the whole night. I was told that since it was social combat I could not take 10.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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A while later a slightly singed PC comes to the courtroom and has to present three pieces of evidence against the BBEG. He's got a high diplomacy and thinks he can auto-succeed on Take 10. Should the GM deny it? Probably, because auto-succeeding at the climactic challenge of the scenario isn't very dramatic.What one person considers dramatic, another may not.
I would much rather Take 10 and give some role-play around it than roll. If I roll, there is a high probability of me doing much worse than normal because of the way that skill rolls are done. I know it did not enthuse me the night I was in a scenario with a lot of social elements and my character with a +20 Bluff failed once and never got above a 27 total the whole night. I was told that since it was social combat I could not take 10.
I may have overstated that one. "Should the GM" - not necessarily. "Could he" - definitely, this is the sort of case where the FAQ wants to give the GM discretion to choose what is right for the situation.
It's hard to say what's right for your particular case, since I know almost nothing about it. But in general, if a roll is a significant turning point for a scenario, then it makes more sense if the GM doesn't want you to Take 10.
Likewise, some scenarios are written with the idea that the PCs should succeed at most checks (80% or so) but fail a couple, and have to deal with a few complications. Using Take 10 too much in such a scenario can make the whole thing too routine and bland.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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I fully agree that a GM is allowed to veto taking 10 and there are instances where it may make sense. Just try to read the table and watch it so someone doesn't end up looking incompetent because of dice luck in a skill their character is supposed to be skilled at.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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If someone really has all the bad luck in the world it's hard to fix that. You can try to smoothen it out with shirt rerolls and such, but you can have the same problem with your unbelievably OP melee monster that rolls only 1 the whole night.
As a GM I'd look at the following when making a decision:
- Does the scenario require a "perfect" score on checks to get full rewards, or is it intended that groups can make a few mistakes and still get full awards? I'd be more lenient if they really need a perfect track record.
But I prefer scenario design where you can get full awards without being optimized to the point where you can't fail; where you're allowed to miss a few checks as long as you're playing smart and are reasonably competent.
- Is it intended to be a tense competition, with back-and-forth moments but where the most skilled person eventually wins out? I'm more inclined to veto Take 10 on opposed rolls.
- Is the roll the climax of something you've been working towards in the scenario?
- Is a lot of the content of the scenario going to pass unseen if everyone takes 10?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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- Is a lot of the content of the scenario going to pass unseen if everyone takes 10?
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you please explain it to me, Lau?
I've generally found your posts to be very insightful and interesting, which is why I would like you to explain this point. To me, there is no difference in content if you roll a dice or declare a result. Those are just game mechanics to represent how good a character is with a skill. Thus my confusion when you say content would pass unseen if you choose one game mechanic over another.
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Aside from the issue of taking 10:
I've got a mid- to high-level PC with Lore Warden levels, and I am considering just converting him to a wizard as a complete rebuild.
What are the rules for rebuilds and copying spells from spellbooks found during adventures?
Since a full rebuild includes selling back any equipment you have at full price (if you wish), and buying any new equipment you desire and qualify for, I should think you can copy any spells from spellbooks and scrolls that you've gained access to. Your chronicles stay as they were, so they'll need to have the spells listed on them (in spellbook or scroll form). If they're not on the chronicle, there's no way to know what spells a wizard would have gained access to during the adventure. (Well, if you own the scenarios in question then you'd know what's potentially available but I'm not sure that's enough).
I don't see any way to obtain the spells that you might have got from other PCs or non-chronicle-sheet sources during play though.
In other words, you can scribe what you had access to but your only "proof of access" is the chronicle sheets (as far as I can see).
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Opps, meant to say doesn't make them available.
Just like rebuilding into ranks in appraise doesn't let you go back and get a prestige point you missed from failing a check, rebuilding into wizard doesn't let you go back and copy spells that you didn't copy the first time around.
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I actually have faced this question before - with more than one PC... so I've seen this from both sides of the issue (bet you didn't know there were two sides right?).
I have more than one PC that has played their first level as one class, only to re-train as another upon hitting 2nd. First Steps gives access to a scroll that can be scribed into an Alchemists book... Now before their 4th game, (first time playing as a 2nd level), while re-building for 2nd level, I decided to make the PC who was a Bard into an Alchemist. When I asked my VC he stated that I couldn't use the access retroactively - because we had no way of knowing if I actually got the scroll during the game... did we find it? Did we use it and thus not have the scroll to scribe after the game? Did the Witch that was playing actually feed it to her Familiar (and thus I didn't get access to scribe it as the Witch used it up).
Another PC played as a Wizard first level, scribed several spells into his book from different sources, then upon hitting 2nd level rebuilt so that his 1st level was Rogue... but kept his book with the spells he gained as a 1st level Wizard - even though after re-building he was actually a Rogue 1st level and a Wizard 2nd. He could easily have adventured as a 2nd level Rogue, and taken a level of Wizard later...say at 3rd or 4th level. And all the time he would have had a Wizards book, that he built, while he was a wizard - that he wasn't any more.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Minnesota—Minneapolis
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Another PC played as a Wizard first level, scribed several spells into his book from different sources, then upon hitting 2nd level rebuilt so that his 1st level was Rogue... but kept his book with the spells he gained as a 1st level Wizard - even though after re-building he was actually a Rogue 1st level and a Wizard 2nd. He could easily have adventured as a 2nd level Rogue, and taken a level of Wizard later...say at 3rd or 4th level. And all the time he would have had a Wizards book, that he built, while he was a wizard - that he wasn't any more.
Since he received the spellbook as a free part of being a wizard, I don't think he could keep it when he rebuilt out of that class. If he had bought a spellbook with his own money, I believe it is an open question as to if he can keep it or not.
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Another PC played as a Wizard first level, scribed several spells into his book from different sources, then upon hitting 2nd level rebuilt so that his 1st level was Rogue... but kept his book with the spells he gained as a 1st level Wizard - even though after re-building he was actually a Rogue 1st level and a Wizard 2nd. He could easily have adventured as a 2nd level Rogue, and taken a level of Wizard later...say at 3rd or 4th level. And all the time he would have had a Wizards book, that he built, while he was a wizard - that he wasn't any more.Since he received the spellbook as a free part of being a wizard, I don't think he could keep it when he rebuilt out of that class. If he had bought a spellbook with his own money, I believe it is an open question as to if he can keep it or not.
ah! you are correct. If he had actually not taken his 2nd level as Wizard, he would have had to buy a blank book and then copy the spells into it (paying the cost of his "original allotment" of spells he got for being a 1st level wizard - his 3+INT). This would have resulted in him having 2 spell books when he eventually took his level of wizard... but he actually took his 2nd level as Wizard...
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I'm not sure that works Muse, unless the PC in question retrained his 1st level after hitting level 2. Then he'd be a level 2 Wizard (however temporarily), who retrains a level into Rogue. But if he used the free level 1 rebuild to change from Wizard to Rogue before levelling up, he should have lost the free wizard spellbook because there was a point where he was simply a level 1 rogue.
Which brings up a question I am not sure of the answer to: when do you retrain, precisely?
1. retrain my level 3 feat after applying my last chronicle but before I level up, so effectively at level 6?
2. retrain my level 3 feat when I have levelled up to 7, allowing me to select the new feat that has the prereq that I have retrained into?
3. retrain my level 3 feat after I have levelled up to 7, meaning that I also have to retrain the level 7 feat because I couldn't take it when I actually levelled up, only after the retrain?
4. retrain before I gain my 18th xp, because otherwise I have to level up immediately. Therefore I have to play at least one game with the feat I retrained into before I level up to 7?
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Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden
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- Is a lot of the content of the scenario going to pass unseen if everyone takes 10?
I'm not sure what you mean by that. Could you please explain it to me, Lau?
I've generally found your posts to be very insightful and interesting, which is why I would like you to explain this point. To me, there is no difference in content if you roll a dice or declare a result. Those are just game mechanics to represent how good a character is with a skill. Thus my confusion when you say content would pass unseen if you choose one game mechanic over another.
Well for example if it's a "heist" type scenario, like
In that scenario you are preparing a heist and part of that involves making a lot of skill checks. For each skill check that you fail, there is a Complication. Each complication is a mini-scene where you for example have to outrun a guard dog, or talk your way out of the guards getting suspicious of you asking so many questions. Each complication requires another skill check to handle nicely. If you succeed, no harm done. If you fail the recovery skill check, you don't earn that "point" - and you need at least some points to have a good shot at the actual heist.
This whole thing simulates a gang preparing for an Ocean's Eleven style heist, where some of the plans almost go wrong (complication) but then get salvaged. Or not; and the little mistakes pile up until the point the enemy security starts to realize something is happening.
The thing is, the scenario of course favors the PCs, so the DCs are low enough that if you focus on skills you're good at, you have a better than even chance of succeeding. You're sort of supposed to fail 1/4 checks the first time so that a couple of complications happen, but you have a good shot at resolving those. But statistically speaking, expect to get 75% of the points, and it's fine as long as you get at least 25%.
Now imagine everyone wisely taking the jobs they're skilled in, and then taking 10; no complications happen at all, and everything goes super-smooth, instead of a couple of exciting hijinks and tense moments where players wonder if they blew it. Sure, you get 100% of the points, but you miss out on part of the scenario.
So I guess what it comes down to is: if the scenario writer uses the "a bit of failure makes things interesting" style of design, too much Take 10 isn't a good thing.
If the writer is an "all or nothing" or "succeed or die" kind of writer, it's another story. (And I don't like that style as much.)
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Taking 10 also makes skillmonkey characters trivial. 10 + stat mod + skill ranks + trained skill is higher than you can reasonably set the DCs. There's little if any reason to make a real skill monkey if you can take 10.
Skills have diminishing returns. Your first +2 is a masterwork tool that will cost you 50 gold. your second +1 is a ioun stone, that will set you back 200 gp. A circlet of me talky good will run you around 1,500 per plus for a bunch of different skills. A feat is around 5 k gold,m that will cost you 1,500 per plus in one skill...
That sort of investment will let you succeed on a 3... but there's no need to make it at all if you can waltz through the investigation on take 10s.
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Taking 10 also makes skillmonkey characters trivial. 10 + stat mod + skill ranks + trained skill is higher than you can reasonably set the DCs. There's little if any reason to make a real skill monkey if you can take 10.
Skills have diminishing returns. Your first +2 is a masterwork tool that will cost you 50 gold. your second +1 is a ioun stone, that will set you back 200 gp. A circlet of me talky good will run you around 1,500 per plus for a bunch of different skills. A feat is around 5 k gold,m that will cost you 1,500 per plus in one skill...
That sort of investment will let you succeed on a 3... but there's no need to make it at all if you can waltz through the investigation on take 10s.
Ok, you got me. I wasn't going to respond but...
** spoiler omitted **...
If it helps, I'm similar - most of my PCs are skill monkeys in some way, with uRogue and Investigator still being my favourite PC classes. Taking 10 does not detract from my enjoyment - if it's a skill I'm invested in to a ridiculous level, it's true that I'm going to beat the DC by a great amount each time, but that doesn't really matter. A character with +30 linguistics at level 9 should be making all of those checks, because they're one of the best linguists in the world - the interesting part of skills for me is creating situations in which to use those skills in an imaginative manner.
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Casting Thread Necro -
Ok, just had a game where we got a scroll during the adventure, but needed to use it in the game.
The scroll appears on the CR.
so - do I have access to scribe the spell into my book?
Basically, does the CR listing give me access to scribe the spell?
Depends on what you mean by "access."
If it's a scroll of a spell that is not normally PFS legal, then yes, you can buy and scribe the scroll.
If you are asking "do I get to scribe without paying for the scroll?" then no, you don't. You have to buy a new scroll since you used the original during the adventure.