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The bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon and for two-weapon fighting combine for a total of 0.75x STR mod penalty on damage rolls.
There is no 'two-weapon fighting damage modifier'... it doesn't exist.
There is a 'one handed weapon in an off-hand damage modifier', but it applies whether you are two-weapon fighting or not... and only to one-handed weapons.
Metweska has +4 with her off-hands chainsaw... which is consistent with her +1 strength bonus OR that bonus x1.5 (which would then round down back to +1). It is NOT consistent with a 0.75x (or 0.5x) modifier;
+1 bonus (Str 12) * 0.75 = 0.75, would round down to 0
0 + 2 specialization + 1 weapon enhancement bonus = +3
So, as with the Upasunda, a two handed weapon wielded in two off-hands is shown with a damage bonus matching 1.5x str... and specifically NOT matching 0.75x str.
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There is a 'one handed weapon in an off-hand damage modifier', but it applies whether you are two-weapon fighting or not... and only to one-handed weapons.
This is actually wrong. You are only ever counted as having an off-hand while TWFing. I can be holding 2 longswords and attack with either or even both in a full attack and get full str to damage. Only while TWFing to gain extra attacks do you deisgnate an offhand.
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So, did anyone else notice that the Upasunda deals full str damage with it's kukri as well. Unlike a Marilith, it's Multiweapon Mastery ability seems to affect both attack and damage penalties, not just attack. Considering this is the case, I don't think you can use it as an example for how to handle multiweapon fighting, or two weapon fighting. It's not using PC options to get the numbers it does.
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So, did anyone else notice that the Upasunda deals full str damage with it's kukri as well. Unlike a Marilith, it's Multiweapon Mastery ability seems to affect both attack and damage penalties, not just attack. Considering this is the case, I don't think you can use it as an example for how to handle multiweapon fighting, or two weapon fighting. It's not using PC options to get the numbers it does.
The Upasunda multiweapon fighting specifically says this in it's entry.
It cannot be used as an example for how to handle two-weapon fighting, and it isn't. It's being used as an example to determine whether or not two-handed weapons wielded in off-hands receive the STR mod bonus.
This is explained in the source info: "The NPC statblock for Metweska from book 6 of the Iron God's first-party adventure path authored by Crystal Frasier isn't conclusive on whether or not the bonus from wielding a two-handed weapon is applied to the off-hand weapon or not (0.5 x 1 is the same result as 0.75 x 1 when rounded down), either could be valid. So we turn to another example. The monster statblock for the Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 shows the creature wielding a two-handed weapon with it's off hands and receiving the bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon. Note that it's unique version of the "Multiweapon Mastery" special quality which states, "An upasunda takes no penalties when fighting with multiple weapons," does not having bearing on the two-handed weapon bonus question since it is a bonus and not a penalty; it does mean however that the upasunda cannot be used to answer the first two questions or what the attack penalties look like for Kasathas. The Asura, Upasunda entry is of note because it was errated to reflect these rules (previously the stat block showed it receiving only STR mod bonus to damage rolls, and it was changed to be 1.5x STR mod bonus)."
I personally think that the Kasatha NPC from the AP is proof enough that you totally can two weapon fight with 2 handed weapons.
Now, I will admit that the math does need to be clarified by Paizo as we have no way of knowing what the correct damage bonus should be.
No it doesn't, using both stat blocks we can determine them as explained in the SOURCE sections.
Frequent Concerns
An NPC stat block is not a valid source of rule determinations. Paizo has made mistakes in their NPC stat blocks before.
Some agree with this, some do not. I for one do not believe that just because something has the possibility of being wrong that we can't trust it. If that were the case we couldn't use anything in the Core Rulebook because it's had mistakes before. In my opinion we have to accept RAW to be correct unless official word says something else, or a inconsistency or contradiction is discovered.
Doesn't the "Multiweapon Fighting" feat state "This feat replaces the Two-Weapon Fighting feat for creatures with more than two arms?"
In fact it does state that. The Kasatha NPC's stat block shows that a Kasatha can indeed take the "Two-Weapon Fighting" feat chains instead. This is most probably allowed because the wording for monster feats says, "Most of the following feats apply specifically to monsters, although some player characters might qualify for them (particularly Craft Construct)." qualifying for something isn't the same as requiring something.
The Kasatha NPC's stats don't indicate whether the Two-Weapon bonus to damage is applied to the weapon wielded in it's two off-hands. Half of a 1 STR mod is the same as three-quarters of a 1 STR mod when rounded down.
That is why the Upasunda is referenced. The Upasunda's sole purpose in this discussion is to determine whether or not the Two-Weapon bonus to damage is applied to a two-handed wielded in two off-hands.
The Upasunda's stat block shows it has a unique version of the "Multiweapon Mastery" special ability which states, "An upasunda takes no penalties when fighting with multiple weapons." You see this clearly in it's kukri entry getting full strength damage. Thus it cannot be used to determine bonuses or penalties normal multiple-armed characters get.
Correct in-so-much-as because of this the Upasunda cannot be used to determine what the two-weapon fighting penalties look like. However the ability does not change what bonuses a character gets for wielding a two-handed weapon in two off-hands (it only affects penalties). As previously stated, that is all the Upasunda's stat block is being used to prove. In fact the original entry for the Upasunda did not add the two-handed weapon bonus, but was later officially errated to reflect that it does.
What about "Double Slice" feat and "Vestigial Arm" Alchemist Discovery?
The "Double Slice" feat will remove the two-weapon fighting penalty for using an off-hand, and thus you will receive only the bonus for wielding a two-handed weapon (1.5x STR mod).
Vestigial Arms have special rules that dictate what they can and can't do as explained in the official FAQ. It is worth noting that a representative from Paizo said that RAI they cannot be used to wield 2 two-handed weapons.
You are multiplying the Two-Handed bonus and Two-Weapon penalties wrong. 1.5 x 0.5 is normally 0.75, but Pathfinder multiplies differently. As stated in the CRB p.12 & p.179 you add not multiply modifiers. So it ends up being [STR mod] x 1.5 x 0.5 = [STR mod] x 1
I am still unsure about this point. The rules for multiplying specifically apply to "rolls" and "damage". I am not convinced they apply to multiplying strength modifiers. The examples given in these rules are talking about multiplying damage rolls à la multiplying your damage roll of 1d8+2, not multiplying your strength modifier to figure out what your roll is in the first place. I would love anyone who could conclusively settle this specific question.
I made a typo here:
So it ends up being [STR mod] x 1.5 x 0.5 = [STR mod] x 1
It should read: "[STR mod] x (1.5 + -0.5) = [STR mod] x 1"
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As far as the NPC statblock I think you misundertand. I do think they can be used at times. As an example if I can show how several monsters can only use claws or weapons that can back up a point due to consistency, but at the same time one single statblock is not proof without something to back it up. It is evidence at best, and in this case the evidence is weak.
The Multiweapon Fighting feat has its own confusion. Does it mean that it replace the entire TWF tree or just the one feat. There have been debates on this alone. The writing could be a requirement or an option. There is no way to know, no matter what side of the argument someone is on.
There is no proof that double slice allows you to add 1.5 strength mod. We don't even know how TWF and two-handed weapons officially act.
Basically the rules do not say how this works, and until an FAQ covers it then it falls to "ask your GM".
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As far as the NPC statblock I think you misundertand. I do think they can be used at times. As an example if I can show how several monsters can only use claws or weapons that can back up a point due to consistency, but at the same time one single statblock is not proof without something to back it up. It is evidence at best, and in this case the evidence is weak.
The Multiweapon Fighting feat has its own confusion. Does it mean that it replace the entire TWF tree or just the one feat. There have been debates on this alone. The writing could be a requirement or an option. There is no way to know, no matter what side of the argument someone is on.
There is no proof that double slice allows you to add 1.5 strength mod. We don't even know how TWF and two-handed weapons officially act.
Basically the rules do not say how this works, and until an FAQ covers it then it falls to "ask your GM".
I am amazed at how so many people do not understand the difference between evidence and proof.
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I still maintain that no matter what weapons are use while TWF/MWF, the character will only ever get the total of 1.5 total Str Mod use. This would be 1.0 for the "Main" hand and 0.5 for the off hand(s).
The overall confusion about this issue stems from having TWF particulars be in one section of the CRB while the Designation particulars are in another. They both relate to one another and TWF is mentioned in the Designation section, but neither has any mention of Off Hand use for Two Handed weapons, only Light and One Handed weapons.
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I still maintain that no matter what weapons are use while TWF/MWF, the character will only ever get the total of 1.5 total Str Mod use. This would be 1.0 for the "Main" hand and 0.5 for the off hand(s).
...and the fact that this is contradicted by every 3+ 'hand' attack block in the game (not to mention numerous 2 hand attack blocks, e.g. Double Slice, Monks, etc) will never change your mind.
Sadly my biggest hope for clarification on how 3+ arms work in combat getting an explanation was SF. With the Kasatha as a race we would have to have info, but it looks like it's closer to Star wars Saga edition with only 1 attack/rnd from what i understand.
Sadly my biggest hope for clarification on how 3+ arms work in combat getting an explanation was SF. With the Kasatha as a race we would have to have info, but it looks like it's closer to Star wars Saga edition with only 1 attack/rnd from what i understand.
In Starfinder you can make a single attack as a standard action.
Two attacks as a full-round action at a -4 penalty to all attacks.
Some classes get abilities that let them make additional attacks as part of a full-round action.
Basically there isn't even TWF in Starfinder, except that you might want to have different kinds of weapons or to combine melee and ranged. In any event its not advantageous to use two weapons in Starfinder is your goal is simply damage.
I really do wish they'd release rules for how to handle things for Pathfinder though.
It really could be as simple as saying "Almost all character rules are designed around having 2 arms only. Kastha have 3 off-hands and one primary" should resolve things pretty well. They would at most get 2 extra attacks worth of damage at 1/2 strength each.
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It really could be as simple as saying "Almost all character rules are designed around having 2 arms only. Kastha have 3 off-hands and one primary" should resolve things pretty well.
That's actually what the Bestiary Kasatha rules DO say;
"Multi-Armed (Ex) A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands."Alternatively, the Advanced Race Guide gives Kasathas the 'Multi-armed' trait, which states;
Multi-Armed (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
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It really could be as simple as saying "Almost all character rules are designed around having 2 arms only. Kastha have 3 off-hands and one primary" should resolve things pretty well.That's actually what the Bestiary Kasatha rules DO say;
"Multi-Armed (Ex) A kasatha has four arms. One hand is considered its primary hand; all others are considered off hands."Alternatively, the Advanced Race Guide gives Kasathas the 'Multi-armed' trait, which states;
Multi-Armed (4 RP): Prerequisites: None; Benefit: Members of this race possess three arms. A member of this race can wield multiple weapons, but only one hand is its primary hand, and all others are off hands. It can also use its hands for other purposes that require free hands. Special: This trait can be taken up to twice. When it is taken a second time, the race gains a fourth arm.
Thank you for referencing this...
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So, did anyone else notice that the Upasunda deals full str damage with it's kukri as well. Unlike a Marilith, it's Multiweapon Mastery ability seems to affect both attack and damage penalties, not just attack. Considering this is the case, I don't think you can use it as an example for how to handle multiweapon fighting, or two weapon fighting. It's not using PC options to get the numbers it does.The Upasunda multiweapon fighting specifically says this in it's entry.
It cannot be used as an example for how to handle two-weapon fighting, and it isn't. It's being used as an example to determine whether or not two-handed weapons wielded in off-hands receive the STR mod bonus.
The monster statblock for the Asura, Upasunda from Bestiary 3 shows the creature wielding a two-handed weapon with it's off hands and receiving the bonus to damage from wielding a two-handed weapon. Note that it's unique version of the "Multiweapon Mastery" special quality which states, "An upasunda takes no penalties when fighting with multiple weapons," does not having bearing on the two-handed weapon bonus question since it is a bonus and not a penalty; it does mean however that the upasunda cannot be used to answer the first two questions or what the attack penalties look like for Kasathas. The Asura, Upasunda entry is of note because it was errated to reflect these rules (previously the stat block showed it receiving only STR mod bonus to damage rolls, and it was changed to be 1.5x STR mod bonus)."
The point I was trying to make is that the multiweapon mastery ability doesn't refer simply to penalties as things specifically called out as penalties in the rulebook, but anything that negatively affects using multiple weapons. Dealing half str damage with an off-hand attack isn't a penalty, it's just how attacks with offhands work. The Upusandra seems to treat every hand as a primary hand, so using it to figure out how off-hand attacks work doesn't make sense.
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Personally, I'd say the two-hander wielded in primary and one off-hand would get 1.5x Str (1x + .5x), while the two-hander wielded in two off-hands would get 1x Str (.5x + .5x).
Going on the premise that it is allowed by the GM (To Double Wield Two Handed Weapons), there is nothing about how to adjudicate the Two Handed Weapons bonuses on damage other than using the normal Two Weapon Fighting normal parameters. (Main at 1.0, Off at 0.5)
It is when the weapon is used normally that one can get the higher bonus for using "both" hands.
Adding the "second" hand into it is an adjustment that doesn't add up. (The Off Hands would be .5 + .25, hence the .75 that is mentioned above.)
The main point is that the advantage for having the bigger weapons wanes once the particulars are fettered out, likely having an addition penalty for the higher designation weapon (TWF with -6/-6), having the same Str mods as One Handed weapons when TWF with them, and having to carry two Medium sized objects around to use in this manner. (Yes, the weapons are the same size as the character)
However cool is seems for the look of the thing, the likely way to TWF/MWF with a Four Armed Character is with Light Weapons in the Off Hands. (So the total off the BAB is -2/-2)