Weird Starfinder rules quirks you found


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Are there any quirks in the Starfinder system that make you think "that's weird?"

For me, it's the omission of certain spells on the Mystic and Technomancer lists. Specifically, that Mystics get Telekinetic Projectile and don't get Telekinesis, and vice-versa for the Technomancer. I'm wondering why they both don't get both spells or one just got both spells.

It just seems weird to me that a Technomancer who wants to use telekinetic options can't start with one of the basic telekinesis cantrips, while Mystics can never really get better at telekinesis.

Just something odd I noted.

The Exchange

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Non lethal. It still seems odd to me that if the opponent has 200 hp, and someone deals 199 specifically non lethal damage, then someone stabs them for 1 point of lethal with a toothpick, that person is then bleeding out or dead.


The power armor suits beyond the basic suit being more in the realm of full mecha.


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A nearly disintegrated suit of armor still provides 100% environmental protection, even against the vacuum of space or the harshest of hot/cold environs. So long as it doesn't have the destroyed condition.

Dark Archive

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Solarions' mote of energy comes in one of many colors, including black void. The fact that this color does not change when alternating between Photon and Graviton aspects bothers me way more than it should.

Heck, the first example build is seems very "space paladin" in terms of description and armor color, but his weapon looks like a bolt of pure spite made manifest.

Dark Archive

Darkling36 wrote:
Non lethal. It still seems odd to me that if the opponent has 200 hp, and someone deals 199 specifically non lethal damage, then someone stabs them for 1 point of lethal with a toothpick, that person is then bleeding out or dead.

I guess you could read it that way, but I don't.

If all your damage is lethal, you die.
If some is nonlethal, you are unconscious.

With some GM caveat if the final damage is a massive amount off lethal damage.

The Exchange

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Silbeg wrote:
Darkling36 wrote:
Non lethal. It still seems odd to me that if the opponent has 200 hp, and someone deals 199 specifically non lethal damage, then someone stabs them for 1 point of lethal with a toothpick, that person is then bleeding out or dead.

I guess you could read it that way, but I don't.

If all your damage is lethal, you die.
If some is nonlethal, you are unconscious.

With some GM caveat if the final damage is a massive amount off lethal damage.

RAW it's only the damage that puts you at 0 that matters. There's no reason to record what type the rest of the damage is because only that hit matters. I'm not saying I agree and I may house rule it in a home game, but that is the relivent rule per p. 252. If that last hit isn't non lethal then you're dying, or if you're out of resolve about to be dead.


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I'm fine with that rule about nonlethal damage, because the way I see it, if you get jumped by four guys who beat you black and blue, and then someone comes up to you with a knife to stab you in the kidneys, it doesn't matter if all the previous injuries were from a fist or a lead slug - it still took all the fight out of you and put you defenseless against that knife stab.


The ability for a wounding crit to cut off a hand without doing HP damage is weird.


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Ventnor wrote:
Are there any quirks in the Starfinder system that make you think "that's weird?"

You cannot use any Swift Actions on a turn you use a Full Action. Making a lot of abilities not really that great (like Quick Draw) or some abilities to not work at all as written.


When I get a game I always make a list of interesting ideas, rules, design choices and mistakes.
First I would like to say that I think the game as written would be great system for a video game of 30-60 hours and probably 2 expansion of 20 hours each.
IMHO, most of the changes are intentional design choices by the games creators and if your group like them they then will like the game and if they do not then it is going to be a problem.
One thing I can say is that there is a lot of what I call "Descriptive Vagueness". What the heck is that you ask. Well it is the author(s) attempt to make things clear but in fact do not or that fact they simply gloss over things. An example of each is, "Spell casting is obvious" and "Thrust is important, but from my memory I do not remember how it(thrust) is generated (ie tech, magic, both; can I stand under or behind a Thrust engine and still live?, etc)".
As I said there are quite a few areas in the book that use "Descriptive Vagueness" and for some groups this is not a problem and with other it probably be insurmountable.
The big question I have is why did not the designers see the "Descriptive Vague" issues and if they did why not fix them.
Since they did not fix them I assume that is how they wanted the game to be played and/or assumed it would not be a problem.

MDC

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Darkling36 wrote:
Non lethal. It still seems odd to me that if the opponent has 200 hp, and someone deals 199 specifically non lethal damage, then someone stabs them for 1 point of lethal with a toothpick, that person is then bleeding out or dead.

Nonlethal damage will still knock something unconscious. At that point the target is helpless, and the attacker's nonlethal weapon can become lethal with no penalty.


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That you use strength to determine the accuracy of grenades, but dexterity to set the DC to dodge.


Ok I am trying to build a level 1 soldier that will use a light reaction cannon but I think if I read the ammo right I can't buy the heavy rounds for my gun till level 2. Is this right?


mbcarver wrote:
Ok I am trying to build a level 1 soldier that will use a light reaction cannon but I think if I read the ammo right I can't buy the heavy rounds for my gun till level 2. Is this right?

You can buy equipment up to your level +1 in 'typical settlements'. Which means you should be able to buy ammo which is level 2.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

Technomancer is supposed to be a mage that manipulates technology, but there's very few abilities and spells that actually do so.

There's no polymorph spells even though there's a now a god of evolution and transformation.

Powered Armor totally replaces your Strength score.

Using the mechanic's exocortex to do combat tracking requires you to be in combat. The issue is that this creates a number of action economy problems as discussed here.

Thrown weapons use Strength for attack rolls. Several other games at least let you choose either Dexterity or Strength, or use of them depending on the size of the weapon.

There's absolutely no option to use solarian stellar weapons with Dexterity, even though the weapon is essentially weightless.

Some abilities (like the mechanic's overcharge) treat powered melee weapons like they spend charges on each attack, despite the fact that they remain powered for a few minutes with just a single expenditure of power.

Gilfalas wrote:
Ventnor wrote:
Are there any quirks in the Starfinder system that make you think "that's weird?"
You cannot use any Swift Actions on a turn you use a Full Action. Making a lot of abilities not really that great (like Quick Draw) or some abilities to not work at all as written.

And this, too.


While I'm still skimming the PDF, I do have two major irritations.

1. NPCs not built on same principles as PCs.
Yeah I know it makes the game much more manageable, but my suspension of disbelief shattered faster than the speed of light when I learned about it. If the nightmarish event of a PC style statblock "transforming" into an NPC style one ever happens in an adventure path... (shudders in fear of going amok)

2. Solarians' super MAD-ness.
The Chained Monk problem Mark-II. They managed to (mostly) fix Fighter and Rouge in this game, but why not our Jedi-esque space monks? Well, guess no Yoda archetypes for me, shame...

Liberty's Edge

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Lucas Yew wrote:

2. Solarians' super MAD-ness.

The Chained Monk problem Mark-II. They managed to (mostly) fix Fighter and Rouge in this game, but why not our Jedi-esque space monks? Well, guess no Yoda archetypes for me, shame...

MADness is vastly less of problem in Starfinder due to how ability points from leveling work.

Dark Archive

Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

2. Solarians' super MAD-ness.

The Chained Monk problem Mark-II. They managed to (mostly) fix Fighter and Rouge in this game, but why not our Jedi-esque space monks? Well, guess no Yoda archetypes for me, shame...
MADness is vastly less of problem in Starfinder due to how ability points from leveling work.

They're the only class where your main functional stat (Strength for melee) does not tie in to your key ability score (Charisma for Resolve and DCs on some abilities)

Hilariously enough, a common fix that I've heard is to start your first level in Soldier. Specifically with the Blitz fighting style. Not only do you get that sick initiative and movespeed, and proficiency with the heavy armor that you already want on a melee Solarion, but it means your key ability score for Resolve will be calculated off of Strength.


Yeah I don't think any character can be Mad in SF. unless there is one that require more then 4 attributes.

Silver Crusade

Short of skills.

One skill do 3-4+ things


Rosc wrote:
Deadmanwalking wrote:
Lucas Yew wrote:

2. Solarians' super MAD-ness.

The Chained Monk problem Mark-II. They managed to (mostly) fix Fighter and Rouge in this game, but why not our Jedi-esque space monks? Well, guess no Yoda archetypes for me, shame...
MADness is vastly less of problem in Starfinder due to how ability points from leveling work.

They're the only class where your main functional stat (Strength for melee) does not tie in to your key ability score (Charisma for Resolve and DCs on some abilities)

Hilariously enough, a common fix that I've heard is to start your first level in Soldier. Specifically with the Blitz fighting style. Not only do you get that sick initiative and movespeed, and proficiency with the heavy armor that you already want on a melee Solarion, but it means your key ability score for Resolve will be calculated off of Strength.

I've seen the math on that. the blitz soldier build is overall less effective. with a straight solarion you end up dealing more damage. In fact the way it seemed you could have a strength score 6 points lower then max and still out damage a soldier in melee combat.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah I don't think any character can be Mad in SF. unless there is one that require more then 4 attributes.

... or the character could just be below 5th level? Which is a lot of characters.

Liberty's Edge

Rosc wrote:
They're the only class where your main functional stat (Strength for melee) does not tie in to your key ability score (Charisma for Resolve and DCs on some abilities)

I'd actually disagree with this. Both Mechanic and Envoy are largely in the same boat if they want to participate in combat at all.

Rosc wrote:
Hilariously enough, a common fix that I've heard is to start your first level in Soldier. Specifically with the Blitz fighting style. Not only do you get that sick initiative and movespeed, and proficiency with the heavy armor that you already want on a melee Solarion, but it means your key ability score for Resolve will be calculated off of Strength.

This is a valid strategy but hardly an optimal one.


Milo v3 wrote:
Vidmaster7 wrote:
Yeah I don't think any character can be Mad in SF. unless there is one that require more then 4 attributes.
... or the character could just be below 5th level? Which is a lot of characters.

Well if your only playing the game to level 5 then you probably have some unique circumstances anyways. besides its all guess work until we see what the monsters are gonna look like.


Vidmaster7 wrote:
Well if your only playing the game to level 5 then you probably have some unique circumstances anyways.

I have no idea where you getting this from....

I'm saying the 4 ability scores increased every 5 levels doesn't stop the class from being MAD for the first four levels of the game.


ok but I still don't see it being that big of a deal.


Most people don't like having their characters suck for the first two chapters of the campaign?


Define suck.


Your just makeing broad strokes. have you personally made a solarion from 1-4 and played it in a game and it sucked? or are you just guessing? I'll need some empirical data.

Liberty's Edge

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Milo v3 wrote:
Most people don't like having their characters suck for the first two chapters of the campaign?

+4 to hit for 1d6+4 damage, with AC 14/16 and 3 Resolve at 1st level isn't sucking.

Indeed, it's better at offensive combat than (or at least as good as) anyone but a Soldier or Exocortex Mechanic is gonna manage, and Exocortex people usually go ranged.

Yeah, a Soldier can have +5 to hit for 1d8+4 damage, AC 15/17, and 5 Resolve...but being a bit behind the most optimal build possible at that level isn't exactly the end of the world.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Narratively, I find the Starstone's super-beacon status problematic...

Getting lost in space and trying to find a way home is a good, timeworn, well-honored trope... but if Absalom station is always a short jump away, how lost can you get?

I mean, yeah, I could one-off some schlubs beyond the Rim, but... if all Drift-capable vessels can pop into Absalom Station's orbit in the blink of an eye, it's hard to maintain a real sense of distance...


You could do what they did in voyager get thrown into deep deep space by some weird alien science and then have their drift drive malfunction or blow up or something maybe even get stuck in a different ship that doesn't have one.

Dark Archive

Right at the back in the settings section, regarding personal comms:

p. 430 wrote:
Small enough to be carried in a pocket, they also come automatically integrated into all armor of 1st level or higher.

So you don't actually need to buy one (assuming you have armour).

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Deadmanwalking wrote:
Rosc wrote:
They're the only class where your main functional stat (Strength for melee) does not tie in to your key ability score (Charisma for Resolve and DCs on some abilities)
I'd actually disagree with this. Both Mechanic and Envoy are largely in the same boat if they want to participate in combat at all.

But combat is generally not the main role of a mechanic or envoy. Even for a combat mechanic or envoy, their key ability score is still an integral part of their class role and abilities. This isn't the case for a solarian. Charisma doesn't do anything for a solarian except raise their saving throw DCs. However, most solarian abilities with saves are just save-or-suck crowd control powers that are not an integral part of being a solarian. So the solarian ends up with a key ability score that is NOT central to the class.


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Shin Bilirubin wrote:

Right at the back in the settings section, regarding personal comms:

p. 430 wrote:
Small enough to be carried in a pocket, they also come automatically integrated into all armor of 1st level or higher.
So you don't actually need to buy one (assuming you have armour).

And assuming you go out for coffee wearing heavy assault armor.


Omnius wrote:
Shin Bilirubin wrote:

Right at the back in the settings section, regarding personal comms:

p. 430 wrote:
Small enough to be carried in a pocket, they also come automatically integrated into all armor of 1st level or higher.
So you don't actually need to buy one (assuming you have armour).
And assuming you go out for coffee wearing heavy assault armor.

Of course. People always wear armor, never take it off (even for sleeping or sex), and never have any other items of clothing. Also, they never take the time to wash.

Just look at the thread for starting equipment. Look at how many people didn't pick up an extra pair of clothes.


Token Spell means never having to say you're sorry you haven't taken off your armor or changed your underwear for several years.


The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?


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RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

Part of their security is the false advertisement of their security system.


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RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

That makes perfect sense.

"Beep! Please present thumbprint."

*Complies.*

"Beep! Subject... alive. Sounding alarm."

*Guards come.*

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Lucas Yew wrote:

1. NPCs not built on same principles as PCs.

Yeah I know it makes the game much more manageable, but my suspension of disbelief shattered faster than the speed of light when I learned about it. If the nightmarish event of a PC style statblock "transforming" into an NPC style one ever happens in an adventure path... (shudders in fear of going amok)

I'm finding a bigger problem being the way that the designers are trying to control the balance of combat - which ironically is leading to balance problems.

  • The idea that NPCs will be more accurate and do more damage, but the PCs will have more armor class and hit points sounds good on paper but it isn't working out quite so well in practice. PCs going unconscious every combat can become quite a strain on healing resources.
  • The "sameness" of NPC armor/hit point/accuracy/damage can lead to some quirky results. For example, it is just as difficult to hit a CR 3 goblin as a C3 ogre. That doesn't make a lot of sense.


Omnius wrote:
RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

That makes perfect sense.

"Beep! Please present thumbprint."

*Complies.*

"Beep! Subject... alive. Sounding alarm."

*Guards come.*

heh, I figured it was something like that, but also, aside from skeletons and incorporeal Undead they still have biometrics, since that covers pretty much everything about your body (fingerprints, DNA, face/iris recognition, hand symmetry, etc).

So even Skeletons have biometrics.


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Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Omnius wrote:
RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

That makes perfect sense.

"Beep! Please present thumbprint."

*Complies.*

"Beep! Subject... alive. Sounding alarm."

*Guards come.*

heh, I figured it was something like that, but also, aside from skeletons and incorporeal Undead they still have biometrics, since that covers pretty much everything about your body (fingerprints, DNA, face/iris recognition, hand symmetry, etc).

So even Skeletons have biometrics.

Phrenology is an important part of Eoxian security systems, apparently.


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Ventnor wrote:
Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:
Omnius wrote:
RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

That makes perfect sense.

"Beep! Please present thumbprint."

*Complies.*

"Beep! Subject... alive. Sounding alarm."

*Guards come.*

heh, I figured it was something like that, but also, aside from skeletons and incorporeal Undead they still have biometrics, since that covers pretty much everything about your body (fingerprints, DNA, face/iris recognition, hand symmetry, etc).

So even Skeletons have biometrics.

Phrenology is an important part of Eoxian security systems, apparently.

Have you seen their noggins?


RainOfSteel wrote:

The Eoxian battleship, Thaumtech Omenbringer, has biometric locks for security.

At first, I did a double take, biometrics for undead? They don't have any, right?

The definition of the system just says it can only be used by certain creatures as designated.

So, just what are the "bio"-metrics for a type of creature where most examples no longer have a working biology or even any flesh left?

Do you know how the vast majority of facial recognition software works? By calculating the distance between facial features, like eyes (or eye orbitals in this case) or the nose (or nose cavity, in this case). There's no problem here.

OR, if you want to make the doors essentially unhackable by living creatures, the machine could test their bone marrow.


I'm pretty sure the marrow decomposes faster than the flesh?


Analog quality on weapons results in some weird interactions. The 5th level Creation spell, for example, an only create "nn- technological" items, but that seems to include any machine gun or sniper rifle.

Liberty's Edge

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Cyrad wrote:
But combat is generally not the main role of a mechanic or envoy.

Combat is sort of a necessity for everyone. And thus highly relevant.

Cyrad wrote:
Even for a combat mechanic or envoy, their key ability score is still an integral part of their class role and abilities. This isn't the case for a solarian.

It isn't? In the case of Mechanic all they get from Int is a bonus to skills like everyone else. Envoy admittedly gets more from Cha, but so does Solarian. Envoy admittedly gets more but not a whole lot more.

Cyrad wrote:
Charisma doesn't do anything for a solarian except raise their saving throw DCs. However, most solarian abilities with saves are just save-or-suck crowd control powers that are not an integral part of being a solarian. So the solarian ends up with a key ability score that is NOT central to the class.

Eh. Save DCs seem relevant to me, as do social skills. Being good at those is nice.


bookrat wrote:
Omnius wrote:
Shin Bilirubin wrote:

Right at the back in the settings section, regarding personal comms:

p. 430 wrote:
Small enough to be carried in a pocket, they also come automatically integrated into all armor of 1st level or higher.
So you don't actually need to buy one (assuming you have armour).
And assuming you go out for coffee wearing heavy assault armor.

Of course. People always wear armor, never take it off (even for sleeping or sex), and never have any other items of clothing. Also, they never take the time to wash.

Just look at the thread for starting equipment. Look at how many people didn't pick up an extra pair of clothes.

If RAW = no penalty, then why leave space without it?

No doubt this will get FAQ'd and then a new Feat will appear: Armor All or a "back door" enhancement to the armor.

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