Are fusions basically half price?


Rules Questions

The Exchange

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I'm hoping I'm missing something, but it seems to me like after the first few levels fusions all become significantly cheaper so long as you buy them in the proper order?

Soldier picks up a stick/club for free and goes into the fusion emporium. Places the free club on the counter and ask them to add the calling fusion to it for 120 credits. 10 minutes later he returns, accepts the club, and then places it and a Mack III Swoop hammer on the counter and ask them to transfer calling from the club to the hammer, for 67,500. Thus saving 67,380 credits over buying the fusion strait out.

I mean I think there absolutely should be a way to transfer fusions, buying a new gun AND all it's upgrades every few levels is a bit much. But maybe that transfer of fusions should be limited to only being able to transfer things to a weapon without any preexisting fusions? As I missing something? I feel like I must be missing something...

Please correct me.

Scarab Sages

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A club is a level 1 weapon and can only accept level one fusions. If you wanted to transfer a level one fusion to a higher weapon you could save some cash that way, but the trick is useless for higher level weapons.

The Exchange

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Imbicatus wrote:
A club is a level 1 weapon and can only accept level one fusions. If you wanted to transfer a level one fusion to a higher weapon you could save some cash that way, but the trick is useless for higher level weapons.

I chose a level 1 weapon and fusion for my example to show the greatest gap possible. It could have just as easily been a left over level 5 gun(who would bother selling old gear at a 10% ratio) which will hold the majority of fusions and only cost 720 to enhance. Said trick if it works doesn't render itself useless. As you upgrade weapons you're only going to get a few levels of space that aren't occupied by a previous fusion at a time anyway. You only need a few levels of diferance in item levels to make it profitable. Putting fusions on a level 8 weapon and running them through a level 5 first still turns a profit, and the greater the difference the more the savings.


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It's not remotely useless. Vorpal is a level 10 Fusion, and can be applied to a level 10 weapon for 3380 credits, and a Battleglove is a cheap level 10 weapon for 16,100 credits, for a combined credit cost of 19480 credits. Transferring this up to a level 20 weapon is still nearly 50,000 credits cheaper than directly paying for the fusion. And Vorpal is the most expensive fusion you can get, at level 10. Everything else? Your net savings go up. Get a Calle, Spellthrower Holy Ghost Killer Vorpal Dimensional Slice Longsword or something. That's 5 fusions. That's somewhere around 250,000 credits in savings.

This is all perfectly rules legal.

Much less extreme gaps are possible and in fact probable, but still useful for savings.


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Omg thats great. Must keep around a level 2 and a level 5 weapon always.

Someone didnt test out that section very well.


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Maybe this is only meant for transferring fusions from captured NPC weapons. There's still the rule that a fusion must be made to match the level of the weapon that it is on.


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P. 191, Fusions - Installing and Transferring Fusions wrote:
It's also possible, though difficult and fairly expensive, to transfer fusions from one weapon to another. Any character trained in mysticism can transfer a fusion; this costs half as much as it would to initially purchase the fusion, using the level of the new weapon to determine the price.

There is no restriction on what sorts of weapons can be transferred from others, nor any restriction on the level of any weapon beyond those imposed by the fusions themselves. Converting a fusion for a level 10 weapon to a fusion for a level 20 weapon is part of the process of transferring the fusion, and accounted for in the price of transferring it to the level 20 weapon.


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Yep, but after you transfer it, it doesn't work because it's not high enough level. Maybe I'm being overly nit-picky, but it looks quite possible that the purpose of the transfer-price-is-based-on-level wording is just to save you money if the infusion is HIGHER level than the weapon it is being transferred to.

EDIT: on further thought, I'm giving the opposing position too much credit. If it worked like the OP says, no-one would EVER make an infusion at higher than the minimum level, and the rules would be written differently.


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Let me try to break this down.

P.192, Fusions - Item Level wrote:
Each weapon fusion has an item level, and a fusion can't be placed on a weapon that has a lower level than the fusion's item level. Once it is attached to a weapon, a weapon fusion uses the weapon's item level for any of the weapon fusion's level based effects.

Alright. The only specification here is that a weapon fusion cannot be placed on a weapon with a lower item level than the weapon fusion's. Continuing into the next section...

P. 192, Fusions - Multiple Fusions and Multiple Targets wrote:
You can place multiple fusions on the same weapon, but only if the weapon's item level is equal to or greater than the combined total of all the fusions' item levels. A weapon cannot hold or benefit from additional fusions beyond this limit.

So, we have two things. First, there's no mention of a weapon fusion having an item level that is in any way modified by the weapon into which it is placed. Second, you can't put a fusion into a weapon with a lower level than the fusion. So you can't put Vorpal, a level 10 Fusion, into a club, which is a level 1 weapon. Moving on...

P. 192, Fusions - Price wrote:
The price of a weapon fusion depends on the item level of the weapon into which it's being installed. Installing a fusion into a 7th-level weapon costs more than applying the same fusion into a 6th-level weapon, for instance.

And for price, there is no mention of a weapon fusion's item level. There is only mention of the weapon's item level.

So, looking at these rules, it looks to me like you can put a fusion into any weapon with an item level that is equal to or greater than the fusion's item level. Further, no matter what fusion you are putting into the weapon, the cost of installing the fusion is based purely on the weapon level. Finally, beyond setting a minimum item level for the weapon into which it is being placed, and setting a functional maximum on how many fusions can be combined in a single weapon, I see no other limitations on weapon fusions based on the weapon fusion's level.

Now, in addition to all of that, you have the rules I quoted earlier, about being able to transfer fusions.

Taken altogether, where do the rules in any way disallow transferring weapon fusions into a weapon of a higher level? Have you perhaps confused fusions with fusion seals? I would completely understand if so. The terminology here is perhaps less than ideal, and could very easily lead to such a misunderstanding.


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I consider the way you think it works to be an immersion-breaking abomination. However, I can't prove that you are wrong.

The Exchange

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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

It 100% works like the op suggests RAW, I find it incredibly hard to believe this was RAI.

The Exchange

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Shaudius wrote:
It 100% works like the op suggests RAW, I find it incredibly hard to believe this was RAI.

As I said, I want to be wrong, working like this is silly. While it could be limiting a simple line like "the weapons having the fusions transferred into it can not have any prior fusions." Maybe specifying that the first batch of fusions can be transferred in bulk, so you can keep your personal blend without paying for them all again, which kind of seems like that's what this is supposed to do anyway.


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Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

It does help take some of the sting out of constantly needing to replace a character's weapons every few levels.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber

Huh. And you can save even more by putting it in a grenade at first, since that costs half.

I can't decide if fusions should have a flat price no matter what level the weapon, or if you have to pay full price to transfer the fusion (less what you already spent) but something should be changed.


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Sticking with the apparent intent to make the weapon level matter, the cleanest fix would be to simply pay the difference. This would require some additional rules to allow you to strip fusions from higher level weapons and put them on lower ones as you currently can, but I think that would be doable. Or just don't address it, and make it either implicitly impossible or a source of free money. A very inefficient source of free money, but a source nonetheless.


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Pathfinder Pawns, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Maybe have it say something to the effect of "You pay the normal cost for the transfer, or the difference in costs of getting a new fusion and the one you already payed for, whichever is more."

For example:

A level 10 infusion normally costs at least 3,580 Cr. Transferring it into a level 20 weapon costs 67,500 Cr.

Normally this means you would save 63,920 Cr ( 135,000 / 2 - 3,580 ).

With this new phrasing (which would need to be refined undoubtedly), it that transfer would cost 131,420 Cr ( 135,000 - 3,580 ).


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AnimatedPaper wrote:
Huh. And you can save even more by putting it in a grenade at first, since that costs half.

Surely, the intent is that the grenade fusion is cheaper because it only works once.

The Concordance

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Any update on this?

Shadow Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

crickits? especially for SOCIETY PLAY this is very important... if I have a level 1 (anchoring) fusion... on a PulseCaster (because WHY NOT)
and then I buy a level 4 thunderstrike Sonic Pistol ... how much do I need to spend for moving the anchor fusion (MY VOTE goes for pay the difference like upgrading in Pathfinder) please FAQ soon...


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How are you adding fusions to a club? My copy of the book has the Club as item Level zero, making it inelligible for fusions.


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Pax Miles wrote:

How are you adding fusions to a club? My copy of the book has the Club as item Level zero, making it inelligible for fusions.

Correct, but the same trick works with a tactical baton, just with slightly more overhead. The fact remains that you can buy fusions waaaay more cheaply by owning cheapo low-level gear, buying the fusions for them, and then hiring a mystic to move the fusions over.


quindraco wrote:
Pax Miles wrote:

How are you adding fusions to a club? My copy of the book has the Club as item Level zero, making it inelligible for fusions.

Correct, but the same trick works with a tactical baton, just with slightly more overhead. The fact remains that you can buy fusions waaaay more cheaply by owning cheapo low-level gear, buying the fusions for them, and then hiring a mystic to move the fusions over.

Oh, I got the point of the thread. Was just double checking that I wasn't misreading my book regarding clubs. Thanks.

Continue.


I agree that raw looks that way but I am thinking that cost does not mean monitary but materials. When referring to transfering it says a mystic cand do it for half the cost. Why would a mystic who is doing it them selves pay creds? I am seeing this as a cost in materials. Let me know what you think.


I mean... it could be a measurement of anything. Space whale tears. You're still spending credits. Half of them, in fact, to move the fusion versus buying a new one.


Sorry but I think you're missing my point. With it being a cost of materials, I think they're called it Ubi, then the vendor can charge whatever they want for you to transfer your Fusion from one to the other they could charge you the price of a full Fusion. More likely than not they will give you a discount say 10% off. I believe these rules were for the Mystic class or someone in high mysticism skill should be able to move the fusions themselves at half the UBI. The way it is written in the core rulebook seems to lend a hand more towards crafting then it does towards vendors. Now I have not played much so I do not know how often players get Ubi or how much Ubi is used in creation of an item. But this seems insentive for item creation during time in drift ir transit.


It's not uncommon for PCs to be trained in the mysticism skill. 'Any character trained in Mysticism can transfer a fusion; this costs half as much as it would to initially purchase the fusion, using the level of the new weapon to determine the price.' & a little later, 'In either case, installing or transferring a fusion takes about 10 minutes of uninterrupted tinkering.'

Sure, they'd be using materials bought with credits rather than credits. How does that change anything?


The materials i believe are 1 cred to 1 Ubi ratio. How hard is it to get Ubi? How often is it dropped as treasure? I believe this is how the system regulates its self. Now again, have not played much but any gm can contain the issues of players tryig to abuse the system/rules by limiting thier access to ubi. What i don't know is how often we have seen in published material that ubi is given out as treasure. Would you all allow players to an infinante amount of ubi on a 1 for 1 cred basis? If not how much would you give your players access to?


Starfinder Superscriber

The math doesn't always come out cheaper if you move the fusion.

The only exceptions I noticed so far was going taking a level 2 fusion off a level 2 item and putting it on a level 4 weapon costs like 20 credits more than just putting it on the level 4 weapon initially. Level 2 to level 5 costs the same as just putting it on the level 5 initially.

I haven't done the math for all of them, but the big jumps I've done all seem to work out in your favor.

I really think they meant for this to be more expensive, since the fusion seals (which are innately moveable) are more expensive.


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Garrett, if you mean Universal Polymer Bases (UPB) then 'UPBs are so ubiquitous that they are usable as currency in many major settlements and trade hubs.' i.e. they're dirt-common.


Thank you avr, that helps. Kills my theory :P


Wow, they still haven't addressed this? I guess when this eventually becomes relevant in my game, I'm just going to have them pay either half the fusion cost based on the starting weapon's level, or the difference between the cost of the higher level fusion and lower level fusion, whichever is higher. This preserves the RAI of transferring between comparable weapons not being free, while making sure transferring fusions to a much higher level weapon isn't some huge money exploit.

Silver Crusade

I must have been blind not to read notice this one before, any clarification would be really welcome.


I know this post is old but I recently looked for an answer as my new character is Solarian (modelled on Doomfist from Overwatch) with the Soulfire (lvl 1) fusion and a Photon shard (lvl 1). Together they cost me 265cr.

I saw that if I get a level 2 weapon crystal it will cost me 360 cr. install a new Soulfire fusion, or given I do have Mysticism I can transfer it for 180cr. As has already been identified, the higher the level of the weapon (crystal) the more I'll save by simply transferring it.

For example, I could install the same fusion into a level 10 weapon crystal for 3580 cr. or if I transfer it it will only cost 1910 cr.

Personally I don't really care that this seems a bit broken but if people wanted a "fix" you could rule that you have to pay half the cost for all the intervening levels. So looking at my level 10 example, transferring my fusion into a level 10 weapon crystal the cost would be 120 + 0.5 * 360 + 0.5 * 440 + ... + 0.5 * 3580 = 4390 cr. which is actually more than simply buying a fusion for a lvl 10 weapon (3580cr.). The only time transferring is better here is transferring the lvl 1 fusion into a lvl 2 weapon.

Again I (and I hope my DM) will go with the RAW. At the end of the day the difference is minor.

The other odd thing is some fusions (e.g. Tauon, Least) are better than similar ones (e.g. Electron, Shard) given it has a critical effect, but for some reason the "better" one is cheaper? Does it really matter? Probably not.


This still works, and i don't see anything changing it in the upcoming errata.

Paizo Employee Starfinder Lead Designer

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It is indeed cheaper to transfer fusions than purchase them new, allowing for the methods mentioned above. There are no plans to errata this at this time.


Joe Pasini wrote:
It is indeed cheaper to transfer fusions than purchase them new, allowing for the methods mentioned above. There are no plans to errata this at this time.

What about the grenade trick? Since fusions are half priced on a grenade you're looking at paying somewhere between a half and a quarter for the fusions, not just the low level ones.

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