Normally for a spontaneous caster using a metamagic rod is a full-round action with the exception of a Quicken Metamagic rod. But what if I add a metamagic rod to a spell that has been Quickened?
Example: 15th level Arcanist with spell perfection Fireball casting a Quickened Fireball (swift action) and Fireball(standard action)
Can I use a Maximize rod with the Quickened Fireball and keep it as a swift action?
Sure, but you'll need a greater maximize metamagic rod to handle the 7th-level-equivalent spell you're maximizing.
Edit: Sorry about that! I missed the Spell Perfection part. Yeah, you should be fine.
For an arcanist that isn't as clear. Arcanists have both the sorcerer and wizard rules for metamagic.
A sorcerer, using anything but a quickened metamagic rod, will have to take a full round action to cast a spell. The quicken rod gets around this, but a quickened spell by itself doesn't. So a sorcerer couldn't do what you just said.
An arcanist can prepare a slot with a quickened spell, like a wizard can prepare a quickened spell, but which rule they use for metamagic rods isn't clear.
Personally, my interpretation is that an arcanist is a spontaneous caster with prepared slots, and for most questions of whether they are like a sorcerer or like a wizard when it comes down to casting, they should be treated like a sorcerer, but I don't know that Piazo has ever fully cleared this up.
A sorcerer, using anything but a quickened metamagic rod, will have to take a full round action to cast a spell. The quicken rod gets around this, but a quickened spell by itself doesn't.
That turns out not to be the case. From the PSRD:
If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
The exact quote:
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
The bolded section provides the key--the metamagic rod is intended to have the same restriction on casting time as applying the feat yourself. Applying additional metamagic to a quickened spell has no effect on casting time, ergo neither does using a metamagic rod on a quickened spell.
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, "just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)."
So an Arcane bloodline Sorcerer with "Arcane Apotheosis (Ex): At 20th level, your body surges with arcane power. You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots". can use metamagic feats w/o increasing casting time.
Can this 20th lvl Sorcerer use metamagic rods w/o increasing the casting time? Relevant text= "just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses"
A sorcerer, using anything but a quickened metamagic rod, will have to take a full round action to cast a spell. The quicken rod gets around this, but a quickened spell by itself doesn't.That turns out not to be the case. From the PSRD:
If the spell’s normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat.
The specific text for metamagic rods is similar, but not identical.
"A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)."
So if you are a sorcerer and using any rod except a quicken rod, it takes a full round. If your spell is modified by the quicken feat, but your are using a rod, it will take a full round action (at least as the rules are written).
Personally, I've always felt that sorcerers having to take a full round action when using rods is stupid. Longer for the feat makes sense, but with a rod they are not changing the spell on the fly any more (or less) than the wizard is, and the rules should be the same.
Can this 20th lvl Sorcerer use metamagic rods w/o increasing the casting time? Relevant text= "just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses"
Nope. Relevant text on metamagic rods: "Possession of a metamagic rod does not confer the associated feat on the owner, only the ability to use the given feat a specified number of times per day."
We appear to be at an impasse, since either reading taken without context is self-contradictory ("still must take a full-round action" vs. "just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses").
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So if you are a sorcerer and using any rod except a quicken rod, it takes a full round. If your spell is modified by the quicken feat, but your are using a rod, it will take a full round action (at least as the rules are written).
So your interpretation is that spontaneous casters lose the benefit of Quicken Spell if they use any other metamagic feat or rod along with it?
That seems hard to justify. "...spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat... can be cast as normal using the feat" is pretty unambiguous. Spells modified both with Quicken Spell and other metamagic feats fall in the category of "spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat". And additional metamagic applied by a rod works "just as if using a metamagic feat".
I interpret this to mean that a spontaneous caster's spell modified with Quicken Spell, whether from a feat or a rod, has a casting time of a swift action, even when modified by other metamagic. Outside of this thread, I'm not aware of any other GMs who interpret differently.
Agreeing with KCC...
If Quicken was designed to not be used with other metamagic feats for spontaneous casters there would be a specific notation in the feat making it an exception to the rule that multiple metamagics can be placed on a spell
Quicken makes any spell that takes up to a certain amount of time into a swift action. Other metamagic spells fall into this time period.
Given that use of the quicken spell feat or the quicken metamagic rod are equivalent operations, as per the "works just as if using the metamagic feat". I don't see how you can then say nope, quicken doesn't really work if you use a rod on a spell you have personally quickening, but works just fine if a rod does so. I think all that was being called out was that use of a rod by a spontaneous caster on a non-quickened spell extends the casting time to a full round action.
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I certainly see the other side of the argument.
Once again, the text is: "A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action)."
The question, as I see it, is whether "just as if using a metamagic feat" is explanatory in nature, or whether it means all of the metamagic spell casting rules are imported, making the everything else in the sentence basically just explanatory and redundant.
Those who see the wording as indicative of the second option, would indeed conclude that a metamagic rod effect on a quickened spell would only take a swift action.
My reading is that the former is more accurate. In other words, that similar to using a feat you possess it adjusts time, but here are the specific rules for how that time is adjusted.
The reason a quickened spell doesn't increase casting time is that the feat metamagic timing increase rules apply only to standard action or longer spell casting times, since quickened spells don't apply to that, they don't have longer casting times. This exception isn't present in the metamagic rod rules (unless of course you interpret the 'just as if' clause to include importing all of the metamagic timing rules, rather than being 'like' the orignal metamagic timing rules.
So the question isn't really about quicken per se, it is about what happens with a metamagic rod being used with any swift action spell.
For example, if Sorcerer want to cast an extend feather fall spell using a feat he possessed, it would take a swift (actually immediate, but if he is doing it on his own turn it is a swift) action to cast, because feather fall isn't a standard action or longer to cast, and therefore adding metamagic doesn't increase its time.
On the other hand, if he wants to do the same thing with a metamagic rod of extend, instead of his own feat, based on the rules for metamagic rods it would take a full round action, since the metamagic rods increased casting times don't only apply to standard action or longer spells.
So by your interpretation, despite the use of the phrase "just as if using a metamagic feat", rods don't actually work just as if the user was using a metamagic feat, because they didn't reprint the entirety of the rules for metamagic feats a second time under the section for metamagic rods?
I apologize for the acerbic tone, but I find your reading hard to support, and unnecessarily complicated.
This is pure house rule, but we resolved this issue a long time ago by seeing Quicken as ramping up the speed of a spell of standard casting time by one step to swift. Then, if you add anything that requires more time - like a rod of empowerment on a quicken fireball, it puts it back to a standard action, but now losing the swift option of taking another standard action. You get a "quickened" version of using the rod (standard, not full round). We had a Sorcerer who had a quicken rod (1st through 6th) who liked to empower by feat some of his spells and ruled it was a standard action rather than full round if he used the rod. That has worked really well for us.
RAW is certainly unclear on the subject. This solution appealed to all parties.
There certainly are differences between rods and feats. One obvious one is that although you can use multiple metamagic feats on a spell, you can only use a single metamagic rod.
As I said, the 'just as' clause can be read multiple ways. It is either 'similarly to' or 'using the rules of'.
As an example, "You can get from the Manhattan to Greenwich Village by taxi, just as you can by taking the subway" that would be a correct statement both grammatically and factually. It wouldn't imply though that the taxi doesn't have to obey the traffic laws, just because the subway train doesn't.
In other contexts, it would be different. For example: "You can go to prison for unknowingly violating the tax laws, just as you can for knowing doing do" implies that both situations follow the same rules.
I am not sure the context of the metamagic rules is clear enough to determine which is the best reading.
Like I said above though, I find the whole metamagic rods increasing spontaneous casting times but not prepared casting times concept to be idiotic in the first place, and in my games they don't have a time cost so the question is entirely academic for me.
This is one of the most bizarre and convoluted readings of a set of rules I've yet seen.
It is really very simple: Is quicken involved in the casting of the spell (whether by feat or rod)? If yes, it is a swift action. If not the standard action spell becomes a full-round action.
Rods works exactly like the feats with the following exceptions:
Limit 3 uses per day.
Rod size determines what spell levels it works with.
Can only apply 1 rod to a spell.
Does not increase spell slot requirement.
@ Dave Justus: If I have both Quicken and Empower as feats, then I can cast Quickened Empowered spells as a Swift Action, as the rules say would happen. If I have one of these feats and a rod of the other feat that I don't possess, then it doesn't matter which order (or manner) that I apply these effects, the end result is still a Quickened Empowered spell, which means you're still casting it as a Swift Action, as the rules say would happen if both were feats. That's really all a Metamagic Rod does in relation to a given spell.
There is nothing in the rules to support this arse-backwards parsing other than neurons in the brain failing to fire off in regards to the obviously synonymous elements of both subjects.
@ 2bz2p: That would be two steps, if going from Standard to Swift, as otherwise you're skipping Move entirely, the next logical step down from Standard in the grand scheme of things.
It also doesn't take into consideration feats like Spontaneous Metafocus, which were created specifically to reduce the casting time of metamagick'd spells for spontaneous spellcasters. Granted, it's not necessarily difficult to incorporate it into your current rules set, it's still a noticable oversight.
Obviously my alternate interpretation is unpopular, and I have already granted that the more common way people are interpreting this is also a plausible reading.
I don't think any of the arguments expressed here are very good at showing one reading is superior to the other, however on consideration, if we look at it from the other direction, say a spell that was a full round or longer casting time normally, and used a rod with it if only the rods timing text applied then that spell would always be cast as a full round action. So a spell that normally took 10 minutes to cast would only take a single round if used with an extend rod.
This is obviously an absurd result, and given that if their are two ways to read rules and one of them yields an absurd result then the other should be considered the correct one, we obviously have to take the rules for longer time spells from metamagic and apply them to rods, and if you are taking some timing rules it only makes sense to take the shorter time metamagic rules as well, so any spell that is a swift action remains a swift action when using metamagic rods.
From the metamagic feat rule
"casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard. (This isn’t the same as a 1-round casting time.) The only exception is for spells modified by the Quicken Spell metamagic feat, which can be cast as normal using the feat."
Obviously my alternate interpretation is unpopular, and I have already granted that the more common way people are interpreting this is also a plausible reading.
I don't think any of the arguments expressed here are very good at showing one reading is superior to the other, however on consideration, if we look at it from the other direction, say a spell that was a full round or longer casting time normally, and used a rod with it if only the rods timing text applied then that spell would always be cast as a full round action. So a spell that normally took 10 minutes to cast would only take a single round if used with an extend rod.
This is obviously an absurd result, and given that if their are two ways to read rules and one of them yields an absurd result then the other should be considered the correct one, we obviously have to take the rules for longer time spells from metamagic and apply them to rods, and if you are taking some timing rules it only makes sense to take the shorter time metamagic rules as well, so any spell that is a swift action remains a swift action when using metamagic rods.
Welcome, fellow member, to the Unpopular Interpretation Club. We have cookies! (But everybody argues about whether to call them "biscuits"....)
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I don't think any of the arguments expressed here are very good at showing one reading is superior to the other, however on consideration, if we look at it from the other direction, say a spell that was a full round or longer casting time normally, and used a rod with it if only the rods timing text applied then that spell would always be cast as a full round action. So a spell that normally took 10 minutes to cast would only take a single round if used with an extend rod.This is obviously an absurd result, and given that if their are two ways to read rules and one of them yields an absurd result then the other should be considered the correct one, we obviously have to take the rules for longer time spells from metamagic and apply them to rods, and if you are taking some timing rules it only makes sense to take the shorter time metamagic rules as well, so any spell that is a swift action remains a swift action when using metamagic rods.
You have a serious flaw in this argument, as the rules already cover the condition for longer casting time spells adequately.
A sorcerer still must take a full-round action when using a metamagic rod, just as if using a metamagic feat he possesses (except for quicken metamagic rods, which can be used as a swift action).
So what are the rules governing the feats?
If the spell's normal casting time is a standard action, casting a metamagic version is a full-round action for a sorcerer or bard...For a spell with a longer casting time, it takes an extra full-round action to cast the spell.
This shouldn't be complicated.
Metamagic rods work as if you are applying metamagic.
If you apply metamagic to a spell that is swifted with quicken metamagic it stays swift.
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I look at it this way: Take away Spell Perfection and imagine the sorcerer is paying the full +4 levels for Quicken Spell. Now she already must use a bigger metamagic rod and a higher level spell slot to cast her quickened spell. Are we really arguing that the sorcerer in this case gets nothing for using Quicken Spell? It seems to me that if you pay the price you should get the benefit.
Dave are you arguing from a point of "This could be written better"
or
"I really think there is strong chance that the Paizo devs intend for this combo to nullify the quicken metamagic feat."
If you look at what Dave wrote last, he's come around to the popular interpretation. He needed to take his own path to get there, but get there he did.
Sorry, folks who still want to argue with him about it, but you've come too late.
Thanks for the feedback. And thanks to Dave for taking the other side of the argument. I save these threads so when questions come up I just have the GM read the thread and then make a ruling. Avoids the hassle of going back and forth.
So it seems consensus is that the rods give the caster access to the feat 3 times per day as a free action just as if he possessed the feat.
So I'm really looking forward to when my Arcane Sorcerer with a Robe of Eldritch Heritage gets to 16th lvl and the ability to use meta magic feats w/o increasing casting time and therefore rods as well. It's going to be fun.
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That part won't work, I don't think (using a Metamagic rod with the Arcane Bloodline capstone).
You can add any metamagic feats that you know to your spells without increasing their casting time, although you must still expend higher-level spell slots.
You don't know the Metamagic feat on the rod. At least, you don't know the Metamagic feat because of the rod. If you happen to have the feat as well, the second part would still apply. You are not increasing the spell slot when you use a rod. So even though the rod functions similarly to the feat, I don't think it functions with that ability. I could be wrong. It is a capstone ability, and they are generally game breaking, but that seems to be correct to me.
Damn. I was looking forward to using rods without increasing casting time. But I understand reading it in a way that doesn't allow that.