Aid another on knowledge checks


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Liberty's Edge 1/5

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

During the GenCon PFS specials last month, I was told - by two different GMs, I think - that you can't aid another on knowledge checks. IIRC, these were not during combat, but I might be wrong about that.

I can understand not aiding on knowledge checks during combat or high pressure situations, but I have not been able to find anything in the rule books or the main Rules Questions thread to suggest that you can't aid a knowledge check otherwise. Is this a PFS-specific thing? Have I just missed something obvious?

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Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:

During the GenCon PFS specials last month, I was told - by two different GMs, I think - that you can't aid another on knowledge checks. IIRC, these were not during combat, but I might be wrong about that.

I can understand not aiding on knowledge checks during combat or high pressure situations, but I have not been able to find anything in the rule books or the main Rules Questions thread to suggest that you can't aid a knowledge check otherwise. Is this a PFS-specific thing? Have I just missed something obvious?

I suspect it boils down to how the knowledge is presented.

If it's a spur-of-the-moment thing (combat/high-stress) then it's unlikely that characters could have a discussion about the subtle nuances of the collapse of the Lung Wa empire as contrasted against the collapse of the Taldan Empire, and how they both differ from the Shory disintegration.

However, personally? As a GM, unless there's a ruling otherwise, if players have the appropriate knowledge skills and are willing to roleplay out a discussion?

I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt -- knowledge checks cap at 10 untrained but one never knows what little tidbit one person might remember that might help the learned scholar recall something far more important.

I've seen this happen countless number of times, not just in game, but also in real life. Someone who is an Authority on a given topic is stuck and trying to remember a name, for example, and someone else goes "Wait, you mean 'x'?" And suddenly the Authority on the topic expounds in much greater detail around 'x'. I'd consider that an 'assist', imo?

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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Tusk, I think this is a table and regional variation thing, partly due to different interpretations of the Collective Recollection feat. Some GMs believe that the very existence of that feat means one cannot aid another in Knowledge without that feat. I disagree. I believe that the feat merely allows you to do it better.

Collective Recollection (Teamwork) wrote:

You and your allies can quickly jog each other’s memories to remember essential facts.

Benefit: When an ally who also has this feat attempts a trained Knowledge skill check while within 30 feet of you, you may attempt an aid another check as a free action to improve that ally’s skill check. You must have at least 1 rank in the Knowledge skill to be aided in order to use this feat. If you succeed at the aid another check, you automatically know any information your ally gains from the Knowledge check as if you had rolled the Knowledge check. Whether or not your aid another check is successful, you cannot attempt a Knowledge check to determine the same information as your ally after using this feat.

In Minnesota and online, I allow for Aid Another in Knowledge Checks at my tables out of combat because the feat says "as a free action." Aid another is usually a standard action. So if you and your team are not rushed, of course you can jog each other's memories and figure out a puzzle collectively.

GenCon is where people from around the world meet, and discover the PFS interpretations (house rules) of other regions. Table Variation is a thing that we just deal with at large conventions. Rules interpretations that "have always been done this way" in one region meet opposite interpretations. For the most part, it's the small potatoes stuff that we wind up disagreeing about. Unless it's something big, I just wind up going with my GM's interpretation and move forward with the game.

Hmm

5/5 5/5

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The description of the Knowledge skill does not include a restriction on not being able to use Aid Another. That said, the restriction "In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can't aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn't achieve alone." should still apply (i.e., if you are not trained, you would not be able to aid someone on a Knowledge skill check with a DC over 10). I would suggest that since you may only attempt Knowledge checks once, a character must choose to either make their own check or may Aid Another, but would not be able to do both.

The Exchange 5/5

here ya go...
Thread from 2012 on this subject.

sorry Hmm - it seems this "issue" predates the Collective Recollection feat.

I actually think it finds it's source in the Two Schools of Gaming...
some people just feel the need to restrict the players options.

Player "Can I - "
Judge "No. I don't know what you are about to ask, but I can tell you right now, the answer is going to be, no you can't do that."

yeah - I'm getting to be a cynic in my gaming. But heck, I've encountered this more and more at the PFS table lately. and after all... "The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well."

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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In most cases of restrictions being imposed on skill checks at the table the GM is misinterpreting rules or just plain getting them wrong. From how Take10/20 works to when/how you can aid another, etc. the rules often seem to be quite different than what the GM thinks they say or how they are remembered. However, in this case, as Pete quoted above there actually is a rule that to some extent restricts using aid another on knowledge checks. If you are trained and you are out of combat where actions matter, it should not be an issue to pool your thoughts for a combined knowledge check. But, if you are not trained, it is unlikely you can succeed at the check on your own and therefore would not be qualified to aid someone who is.

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
In most cases of restrictions being imposed on skill checks at the table the GM is misinterpreting rules or just plain getting them wrong.

... or just have a huge gray area and a different interpretation of it.

Don't get me wrong, I'm fine with assists on knowledge checks. But calling "you can't do that" wrong is a bit of a stretch.

In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

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Yeah, its the "case-by-case" where a lot of these arguments stem from. Course history has also shown that there are a lot of misinterpretations when it comes to how skill checks work, often involving Take10/20 and there is plenty of evidence to show a lot of those GMs were just wrong.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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I used to think that you couldn't, but earlier this year when I was discussing it in a thread I couldn't recall why I was thinking that, so I now allow it at my tables (and ask other GMs what their reasoning is when I'm not allowed to Aid as a player).

But I think for several years now in this Forum and the Rules Forum I can be seen arguing against the idea. Live and learn.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Bob Jonquet wrote:
Yeah, its the "case-by-case" where a lot of these arguments stem from. Course history has also shown that there are a lot of misinterpretations when it comes to how skill checks work, often involving Take10/20 and there is plenty of evidence to show a lot of those GMs were just wrong.

For taking 10, the only wrong thing I've seen is having take 10 take 10 times as long. 99% of everything else is interpretation.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Also the ones who say you cannot Take10 because the inherent danger in failing is a restriction in and of itself (falling while climbing, etc) which has been refuted by the designer/developers of the game some time back. I'm sure when it comes to the implementation of Take10/20, Nosig has an extensive file on how its been done wrong and references to any commentary to the clarifications.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


I suspect it boils down to how the knowledge is presented.

If it's a spur-of-the-moment thing (combat/high-stress) then it's unlikely that characters could have a discussion about the subtle nuances of the collapse of the Lung Wa empire as contrasted against the collapse of the Taldan Empire, and how they both differ from the Shory disintegration.

However, personally? As a GM, unless there's a ruling otherwise, if players have the appropriate knowledge skills and are willing to roleplay out a discussion?

I'd be willing to give them the benefit of the doubt -- knowledge checks cap at 10 untrained but one never knows what little tidbit one person might remember that might help the learned scholar recall something far more important.

I've seen this happen countless number of times, not just in game, but also in real life. Someone who is an Authority on a given topic is stuck and trying to remember a name, for example, and someone else goes "Wait, you mean 'x'?" And suddenly the Authority on the topic expounds in much greater detail around 'x'. I'd consider that an 'assist', imo?

This seems a perfectly reasonable approach to me. If the PCs have the ability to free consult, why not allow Aid Another on Knowledge checks? It's not likely to be abusive.

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
Also the ones who say you cannot Take10 because the inherent danger in failing is a restriction in and of itself (falling while climbing, etc) which has been refuted by the designer/developers of the game some time back.

Unofficially, and then possibly to probably rescinded by the not-an-FAQ tossing it to the DM.

Quote:
I'm sure when it comes to the implementation of Take10/20, Nosig has an extensive file on how its been done wrong and references to any commentary to the clarifications.

He has a very extensive file on how its been done contrary to his understanding of it. That is not the same as it being done wrong.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

Bill Dunn wrote:
This seems a perfectly reasonable approach to me. If the PCs have the ability to free consult, why not allow Aid Another on Knowledge checks? It's not likely to be abusive.

Perfectly reasonable, though there are some that will say, "because there is a rule that says no." see the quoted text above

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/5 ***

So, it appears that some posters are just here to try and pick a fight with others, so I'll just ignore them and let the rest of you to draw your own conclusions from the commentary in this thread.

As stated, I know this subject is something that Nosig is passionate about and he, if anyone, may have commentary from the designers/developers regarding this very subject that might enlighten those who may be misinterpreting the RAW vs. the RAI vs the GM adjudication

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
So, it appears that some posters are just here to try and pick a fight with others,

When you are telling people that they're doing something wrong that is picking, if not a fight, at least an invitation to present justification for the other side. It also places a great deal of the burden of proof on the person making the accusation.

When you dismiss that as "just picking a fight" without answering, or even acknowledging that there is justification for the disagreement you are dismissing not just whats being said, but the person saying it.

The Exchange 5/5

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look around... tip-toes quietly away. Too tired/bruised/battered to be in this discussion... I had thought this thread was about "Aid Another" and "Knowledge Skill Checks", not T10(T20) - I try not to post in those threads anymore...

Liberty's Edge 1/5

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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Wow, this thread got a lot more attention than I expected! Thanks for all of your responses (and thanks, nosig, for the link to your thread - I missed it before because it is in the PFS GM Discussion forum).

Thinking back a little more, I am certain that at least one of the times we were told we could not aid knowledge checks was outside of combat. Also, all of the PCs offering aid were trained in the relevant knowledge skills. But my group - me, my wife, our two teenage kids - has played very little PFS except as home games. I have played a few PbP scenarios, and my daughter and I played one scenario last winter at a very small local convention. We were not about to get into an argument about it, or even question the ruling.

Certainly regional/table variation could apply - our Saturday night GM (five stars, and he was terrific) and was from pretty far from where we play. Also, this GM in particular was very liberal about every other question we had about skill checks, appropriate circumstance bonuses, etc.

In the future, if faced with the same ruling (edit - outside of a time-sensitive special, that is), I will probably ask gently, once, about the basis for it, and otherwise just roll with it.

Dark Archive 5/5 *

There are scenarios that have pcs all roll and highest is the lead and others check to see if they aided.
I feel its situational otherwise.
Many scenarios have knowledge check charts after vc briefing. Dont see why pcs cant discuss and aid other on those.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

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Gang --

Let's get back to our formerly productive conversation on Aid Another and Knowledge Checks. Everyone's contributions should be valued, so long as they are civil and well-thought out.

IN SUMMATION

Can you do aid another? Yes, so long as you have a chance of making the original check. Do you have ranks in the appropriate skill? Do you have a chance of making the original check? If so, then go for it.

Glad we helped you out, Tusk.

Hmm

The Exchange 5/5

Back on subject...

I like to be able to do this In Game - In Character...

it reminds me of a scene from a popular movie (popular with me anyway). In "The Mummy", during a fight with undead, someone is reading a spell from the Book of the Dead (written in Egyptian Hieroglyphics?), and can't remember the word for "the stork!" character - and shouts out the question... do you remember that scene? (am I aiding you on this knowledge roll?). So... to me, that scene was kind of like someone taking an action to ask for an Aid Another on a Knowledge check, and a second person taking an action to do one... Not usually the best thing to do in combat - but possible... Now, did the undead get an AOO for the check?

I'd love to be able to do this In Game - and would surely try to do it In Character... though the response might be something like...

Katisha "What do Ah know about this monster? Darlin' - Ah'm not that kind of a Bard!" Street Performer doesn't have Bardic Knowledge

1/5

Collective Recollection looks like it's designed to allow aiding a Knowledge check to identify a Monster in combat (such as the Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy ability), which to me suggests that it's allowed in other circumstances.
It also specifically requires you to have a rank in the appropriate knowledge skill, which suggests that you don't need that in other cases.

The Exchange 5/5

Andy Brown wrote:

Collective Recollection looks like it's designed to allow aiding a Knowledge check to identify a Monster in combat (such as the Lore Warden's Know Thy Enemy ability), which to me suggests that it's allowed in other circumstances.

It also specifically requires you to have a rank in the appropriate knowledge skill, which suggests that you don't need that in other cases.

and Collective Recollection makes it a free action - "...an aid another check as a free action ..." - rather than the normal Standard...

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'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

The Exchange 5/5

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DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

I like to think it is for skills that can't be performed untrained - but then I like to figure the nurse assisting the heart surgeon couldn't succeed at the transplant alone, but she does give an Aid another check to help.

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DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

That's a good question that I've not seen answered yet.

There's an FAQ request from 2011 on the subject, one from 2016 on Knowledge specifically, and several other threads that never get FAQ requests. Usually the threads end quickly with one side or the other just giving an answer, but a few threads have gone into a full debate.

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

Let's assume that you have a rank in a Knowledge skill, but it's not a class skill for you, so your skill is only a +2. If the knowledge check is a DC 25, you cannot aid another because you would not be able to make the roll on a 20. The highest you could get in this case would be a 22.

Does this make sense?

Hmm

2/5

I have to agree with most of what HMM said. The only difference is that can give away to the players what the dc is. I normally allow them all to roll, and they can either aid, and even harm the other, by giving me examples of HOW they are aiding. That way the wizard who should have made the check, and rolled to low, is now suddenly agreeing and saying this has to be the answer, because the other PCs gave bad info.

Liberty's Edge 1/5

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

Let's assume that you have a rank in a Knowledge skill, but it's not a class skill for you, so your skill is only a +2. If the knowledge check is a DC 25, you cannot aid another because you would not be able to make the roll on a 20. The highest you could get in this case would be a 22.

Does this make sense?

Hmm

That does seem to be the way Aid Another is described in the CRB:

Aid Another, CRB p. 86 wrote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.

This seems to mean that if the DC of the knowledge check is higher than 20 + (the modifier for the PC with the highest bonus in that skill) + (any circumstance or situational bonuses), it will be impossible for the party to succeed by pooling knowledge if no single party member could do it alone. That feels counter-intuitive to me, at least in some cases - Knowledge (history) may be mostly about recalling facts, but Knowledge (engineering) seems like it ought to be more about figuring things out.


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Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:
Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

Let's assume that you have a rank in a Knowledge skill, but it's not a class skill for you, so your skill is only a +2. If the knowledge check is a DC 25, you cannot aid another because you would not be able to make the roll on a 20. The highest you could get in this case would be a 22.

Does this make sense?

Hmm

That does seem to be the way Aid Another is described in the CRB:

Aid Another, CRB p. 86 wrote:
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone.
This seems to mean that if the DC of the knowledge check is higher than 20 + (the modifier for the PC with the highest bonus in that skill) + (any circumstance or situational bonuses), it will be impossible for the party to succeed by pooling knowledge if no single party member could do it alone. That feels counter-intuitive to me, at least in some cases - Knowledge (history) may be mostly about recalling facts, but Knowledge (engineering) seems like it ought to be more about figuring things out.

I do not interpret it the same way. The use of Disable Device in the example leads me to believe they're getting at whether or not a character needs to be trained in the skill, not whether or not they can achieve the DC on an actual roll with their bonus. With respect to actually hitting the DC, all sorts of circumstantial bonuses may put the DC in or out of reach for a character. But being trained sufficient to making a check is an objective way to tell if a character should be able to at least attempt a task.

The Exchange 5/5

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Hilary Moon Murphy wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:
'A chance to make the original check': Does this mean you'd have to be able to make the DC yourself if you rolled a 20 (for any skill, not just knowledges)? Or does the restriction more refer to skills that can't be performed untrained? I think that the interpretation of that could impact all sorts of Aid Anothers I've seen, and if the latter interpretation is correct, then the waters seem a bit muddied for untrained knowledge aiding.

Let's assume that you have a rank in a Knowledge skill, but it's not a class skill for you, so your skill is only a +2. If the knowledge check is a DC 25, you cannot aid another because you would not be able to make the roll on a 20. The highest you could get in this case would be a 22.

Does this make sense?

Hmm

While I originally (back in 2012) believed it should be done that way - I currently do not.

Judge: "Make a Knowledge Local check"
Player A: "Can I aid Mr. Wizard on this?"
Judge: "What's your bonus?
Player A: "+4"
Judge: "Sorry, nope - you can't make the DC on your own..."
Players B and C go back to playing games on their phone, leaving this "encounter" to the skill monkey.
Mr. Wizard: "wow... guess I should roll this check, as my +14 is not going to make it with a Take 10..."

It just goes so much FASTER and CLEANER and more "In Character" to have it go something like....

Judge: "Make a Knowledge Local check"
Player A: "Can I aid Mr. Wizard on this?"
Judge: "Anyone with a rank in it can aid."
Players A, B, C: all rolling dice - two turn to the Wizard player and say... something that gives them a +2.

But by far the biggest reason I like the less Restrictive interpretation? Cause the small investment of a rank or two in trained only skills will allow a player to FEEL like they are able to influence the outcome of a skill check.

(with the more Restrictive interpretation we teach the players) "Why should I put any points into Knowledge skills? My guy has an INT of 13, so it would take at least 4 points to get me up to a where the wizard is with a Take 10. And I can just put the points in Perception and Acrobatics and then play more Candy Krush on my phone during "those encounters"...

Grand Lodge 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Venture-Captain, Minnesota

I do see your point. Let's just put down our differences to regional table variation, shall we?

Hmm

1/5

Page 86 of the CRB:
Aid Another
You can help someone achieve success on a skill check by making the same kind of skill check in a cooperative effort. If you roll a 10 or higher on your check, the character you’re helping gets a +2 bonus on his or her check. (You can’t take 10 on a skill check to aid another.) In many cases, a character’s help won’t be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once.
In cases where the skill restricts who can achieve certain results, such as trying to open a lock using Disable Device, you can’t aid another to grant a bonus to a task that your character couldn’t achieve alone. The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well.

Page 99-100 of the CRB describes the Knowledge Skill, and no where in that description does it say that Aid Another cannot be used on a Knowledge skill check.

It seems abundantly clear that Aid Another can be used to aid a Knowledge skill check.

There are restrictions on whether a character can actually make a Knowledge skill check, and their is special funniness about Disable Device, but for most skills those who can make the skill check can certainly Aid Another.

Edited to separate last paragraph conceptually.

Silver Crusade 4/5

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My two coppers:

1. Yes, you can aid on knowledge checks. As everyone in this thread seems to agree. And it bugs the heck out of me when GMs don't allow it, which I've seen a few times.

2. I agree with nosig and others that the restriction on being able to aid should only mean that you have to have the skill trained if it's "trained only" (unless you have something like bardic knowledge that lets you roll it untrained), not that you need to be able to hit this specific DC. But I can see both sides of that argument, and I might just be interpreting it that way because that's how I wish it worked. So call that one "table variation", and not a settled question. I do wish Paizo would give us an FAQ response on that.

1/5 5/5

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I would *much prefer* to have a table that may not have 'the best of knowledges' have a crack at some information by Cooperating with each other as indicated by the Society mantra than withholding said information because they didn't make it a priority to put all their skill points into one knowledge skill, and praying they sit down at a table with others that can 'cover the difference'.

After all, if I have to prep and reread the information blocks a dozen times, I want my players to have access to them if it is reasonably feasible -- and not have most of the party looking at their smartphones for the most recent play in the local sportsball game because they've tuned out feeling they cannot contribute. This has happened to me once, local team was in the playoffs, and getting the party to engage was... a challenge.

5/5 *****

Fromper wrote:

My two coppers:

1. Yes, you can aid on knowledge checks. As everyone in this thread seems to agree. And it bugs the heck out of me when GMs don't allow it, which I've seen a few times.

2. I agree with nosig and others that the restriction on being able to aid should only mean that you have to have the skill trained if it's "trained only" (unless you have something like bardic knowledge that lets you roll it untrained), not that you need to be able to hit this specific DC. But I can see both sides of that argument, and I might just be interpreting it that way because that's how I wish it worked. So call that one "table variation", and not a settled question. I do wish Paizo would give us an FAQ response on that.

This is pretty much exactly where I am although I don't believe the alternate argument is particularly valid. A FAQ would help put an end to the issue but I doubt we will ever see one.

3/5

I've always seen Aid Another as teamwork achieving more than one could alone, rather than just a probability enhancer. Also, the main actor doesn't seem to have a restriction of neesing to be able to succeed without help before accepting it. The interpretation that those Aiding must be able to succeed on their own, but not the peraon their helping leads to very nonsensible situatioms where it potenrially becomes better to have your lower-skilled person be the primary.

So my vote is for the trained/untrained interpretation (or like, someone trained in Disable Device but without Trapfinding couldn't help in disabling a magic trap). If that's the case, however, what about knowledges where you can roll untrained but are capped at DC 10 (which is the DC needed to Aid Another)?

Silver Crusade 3/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Online—PbP

DrakeRoberts wrote:


So my vote is for the trained/untrained interpretation (or like, someone trained in Disable Device but without Trapfinding couldn't help in disabling a magic trap). If that's the case, however, what about knowledges where you can roll untrained but are capped at DC 10 (which is the DC needed to Aid Another)?

I would say that you can only aid another untrained if the DC on the original check is 10 or less. The rules say that you can't _attempt_ a knowledge check untrained if the DC is above 10.

3/5

Redelia wrote:
DrakeRoberts wrote:


So my vote is for the trained/untrained interpretation (or like, someone trained in Disable Device but without Trapfinding couldn't help in disabling a magic trap). If that's the case, however, what about knowledges where you can roll untrained but are capped at DC 10 (which is the DC needed to Aid Another)?

I would say that you can only aid another untrained if the DC on the original check is 10 or less. The rules say that you can't _attempt_ a knowledge check untrained if the DC is above 10.

Ah, if that is the wording, then I agree.

5/5 5/55/55/5

There's also other things to consider. If you're dangling the rogue down a shaft on the end of the rope, the cleric with a rank in disable device may not be able to aid from up top... or they might be able to yell down advice on gear ratios or shout suggestions. DMs call.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

As a data point the scenario I ran over the weekend had the following instructions for PCs attempting to find out information.

Quote:
If they actively consult with [redacted] when making a Knowledge check, his body of knowledge grants a +2 bonus.

4/5

Tusk the Half-Orc wrote:
I can understand not aiding on knowledge checks during combat or high pressure situations, but I have not been able to find anything in the rule books or the main Rules Questions thread to suggest that you can't aid a knowledge check otherwise. Is this a PFS-specific thing? Have I just missed something obvious?

Aid Another has some caveats,

Aid Another wrote:
"In many cases, a character's help won't be beneficial, or only a limited number of characters can help at once. "

and

Aid Another wrote:
"The GM might impose further restrictions to aiding another on a case-by-case basis as well."

These caveats give the GM a lot of leeway on aid another rulings and one should expect table variation. One of the reasons you'll see GM's not allow Aid Another is because of

Knowledge Skill wrote:
"Try Again: No. The check represents what you know, and thinking about a topic a second time doesn't let you know something that you never learned in the first place.

implying that Knowledge determines whether you learned something in the past, and someone aiding you in the present can't help you learn things in the past if you didn't already know it. So it really comes down to whatever the GM decides.

4/5

I do have to point out that a certain

boon:
boon from Confirmation reads : Friend of Janira Gavix: The field agent who oversaw your Confirmation is appreciative of your bravery and camaraderie in the face of danger. She helps you perform research, granting you a +1 bonus on Knowledge checks attempted while you are in the Grand Lodge.
looks an awful lot like getting an aid another on your knowledge check from an NPC to me.

The Exchange 5/5

RealAlchemy wrote:
I do have to point out that a certain ** spoiler omitted ** looks an awful lot like getting an aid another on your knowledge check from an NPC to me.

So clearly you cannot do this without the Boon that allows it right?

And it only gives a +1, so clearly Aid on Knowledge is only a +1.....

4/5 5/5 ***

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It's a lot easier for me to imagine someone helping out with research than it is to allow someone to jog your memory about the history of the weird cult in the region. I take it case by case.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 *

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We play trivia at a local bar every week. That is a prime example of Aid Another on knowledge.

One example:
A: "I'm pretty sure it's <this> or possibly <that>."
B: "I know it can't be <this>, so I guess it must be <that>."

Another:
A: "That sounds familiar ..."
B: "Weren't we just talking about that with C last week?"
C: "Oh yeah, I almost forgot about that ... I think it was <this>."
A: "No, it was like <this>, but it turned out to be <that>."

And so on.

5/5 5/55/55/5

could we not argue about the definition of words that don't have a standardized meaning ?

Sovereign Court 5/5

BigNorseWolf wrote:
could we not argue about the definition of words that don't have a standardized meaning ?

we are still on the boards right? don't we argue about EVERYTHING on the boards?

I mean, we're arguing about arguing right?

and what do you mean by "standardized meaning"?

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