I find your lack of shields disturbing


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Azalah wrote:


I did address a character using multiple shields. I said it shouldn't be allowed.

Yes, you did. But you did not address a character with multiple arms, using a shield plus a 2 handed longarm/heavy arm.

That picture with Mass Effect's Cerberus Guardian with a tower shield and a pistol, that's a balanced enemy because it's harder to kill, but does less damage. Cerberus Guardians with both a full shield and a minigun would not be balanced.


gustavo iglesias wrote:
Azalah wrote:


I did address a character using multiple shields. I said it shouldn't be allowed.

Yes, you did. But you did not address a character with multiple arms, using a shield plus a 2 handed longarm/heavy arm.

That picture with Mass Effect's Cerberus Guardian with a tower shield and a pistol, that's a balanced enemy because it's harder to kill, but does less damage. Cerberus Guardians with both a full shield and a minigun would not be balanced.

Hm. You are correct there, I have to admit. Perhaps limit it so that heavy weapons can't be used with shields? I mean, heavy weapons are pretty big and unwieldy normally. Add in trying to use a shield to cover your body at the same time, and it would certainly cause issues no matter how many arms you have.

I'm trying to imagine that Cerberus Guardian with an extra arm and trying to use a minigun at the same time. There is no part of that image that doesn't look extremely awkward.


I've been doing a lot of thinking about shields lately due to an impending Borderlands game I'm gonna run. One of my players wants to play a Nomad Taskmaster, but the current equipment doesn't exactly have a ballistic tower shield. I'm thinking of giving it a cover bonus as well, but maybe in the lines of 2nd Ed with a "deploy" action. At least in the game, the enemy generally doesn't move while shooting around the shield, so maybe a Move Action to deploy the shield to gain Full Cover?


Kemuri Kunoichi wrote:

Light armor and a shield makes perfect sense...

Swashbucklers used buckler shields with little or no armor. How about Agent Coulson with his force field shield and no armor in the latest season of Agents of Shield? Captain America's armor would probably also count as light armor. The Gungan's in Star Wars had energy tower shields and no armor. The Covenant from Halo. And on, and on.

Light armour+shields is a great combo, it allows for a quick defence without limiting your joints or weighing you down too much. A great thing they should add would be an energy shield (buckler or targe) that can be activated or disabled as a swift action for quick characters. That concept might even work for tower shields so the quick character as a quickly deployed mobile cover.


I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?


The_Hidden_GM wrote:
I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?

Initially like them, but I fear the 4 armed creatures having long arms/sniper rifles/two handed melee and a decent shield negating the “can’t wield a weapon in that hand”


Xeall wrote:
The_Hidden_GM wrote:
I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?
Initially like them, but I fear the 4 armed creatures having long arms/sniper rifles/two handed melee and a decent shield negating the “can’t wield a weapon in that hand”

At least Kasathas won't be as shunned in SFS anymore.

Sovereign Court

Xeall wrote:
The_Hidden_GM wrote:
I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?
Initially like them, but I fear the 4 armed creatures having long arms/sniper rifles/two handed melee and a decent shield negating the “can’t wield a weapon in that hand”

I consider that a good thing, because the kasatha's 4 arms were not very impressive as an advantage so far.

Sovereign Court

The_Hidden_GM wrote:
I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?

I'm not sure I like the "spend a move action to gain more defense" mechanic. I think it encourages stand-still behavior that we don't want. Maybe if you could do it while taking a simple move or guarded step (but NOT while doing spring attack or trick attack).


Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ascalaphus wrote:
The_Hidden_GM wrote:
I feel this thread has become relavent again, due to the new shield rules in the playtest. How do you all feel about them?
I'm not sure I like the "spend a move action to gain more defense" mechanic. I think it encourages stand-still behavior that we don't want. Maybe if you could do it while taking a simple move or guarded step (but NOT while doing spring attack or trick attack).

I think its more of a they need to create some cost / trade offs for that extra protection. Otherwise they are a no brainer to use and you fall into that, everyone must use one, trap that kept them from being in the main game to begin with.

Granted that last part is purely my speculation but it seemed to me like that balancing them correctly was a big factor in their initial omission.

I personally like that they have a passive bonus that is something but not over-powerd and a active use cost that gives bonus protection vs a single opponent.


I'm not interested in shields being an option if I can't use multiple arms to have a shield while using a two-handed weapon.

The hoops I've tried to go through to get an orc or half-orc with multiple arms so I could do that in pathfinder, and now starfinder gives me easy access to multiple arms but no shields.


Eh...we've got options for multiple arms, and as far as I know nothing prevents you from using a shield with a two-handed weapon in Starfinder under the new rules.

It's nifty, although not great unless you spend the action to get the shield bonus. And if you spend that action you can't full attack.

What I would like to see is a Soldier fighting style that involves shields that let you do it as part of other actions to do things or makes the benefit last longer so you don't have to spend the action each turn.


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My only real inmediatr concern about the playtest shields is tactical shields acting as a buff to Ring of Fangs. Because that's the last thing that needs to happen.


I'm assuming your concern with the Ring of Fangs is because it adds double weapon specialization?

And being able to use a shield would give you something to do with your other hand?

But the unarmed strike normally only does 1d3+str+double specialization. And so far as I recall nothing increases the damage dice. And it's also archaic.

So if you spec into it really hard, which allows you to remove the archaic property (IIRC) and use unarmed strikes the Ring of Fangs allows you to stay competitive with people once they start getting multiple damage dice. You're just much more consistent with damage.

Unless there's something I'm forgetting, which there very well may be.

The one case where I can see it being a problem is an armor storm soldier that gets to treat unarmed strikes as though they did battleglove damage, and then add double level to damage.


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Shield bashes are not archaic, meaning the buy in is actually extremely low, nit specking hevil in at all. IUS with the ring and not archaic damage deals more average damage per hit than any weapon you can buy until about level 12. Only solar weapons beat it out, at some levels.

Armor storm is not an issue, since it is treated as an attack with a battleglove, so no 2 level spec on it.

While an unarmed strike being viable is good, and increases character diversity, an unarmed strike being BETTER than purchased weapons at a much lower cost provides incentive to break out the cookie cutter, and is bad.


You combo the shield with improved unarmed strike feat to remove archaic and add fusions, you add the ring of fangs for the extra specialization damage.


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Hmmm.

I mean, the ring of fangs is clearly supposed to be you biting, which I would argue shouldn't work with shield bashing. I understand though that we are discussing RAW not RAI, and the ring of fangs has some awkward wording.

But like... This is already in the game. Even a 1st level polymorph spell can give you a lethal non-archiac unarmed attack to apply Ring of Fangs to (Vesk or Morlamaw natural attacks).

Sovereign Court

Wait, are you guys arguing that you can combo a tactical shield with a ring of fangs to make non-archaic bite attacks with the shield and add fusions to it? That doesn't sound like it should be possible..


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It should not be. But is. I hope that will change before release.


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My shield... it hungers.


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The problem is the RAW of the Ring of Fangs simply says you can elect to have your unarmed attacks deal lethal piercing damage, and if you do you get the double weapon spec.

The Exchange

I am curious how they will interact with the Vanguard more. I like the idea of explosive shield bashes.


Claxon wrote:


What I would like to see is a Soldier fighting style that involves shields that let you do it as part of other actions to do things or makes the benefit last longer so you don't have to spend the action each turn.

This works for me. Like a Sci-fi Phalanx archetype.

As it stands for me, shields seem to be a joy for casters who just need to cast and little else.

Quick thought, does this make the haste circuit even better as it allows a full attack and then raise a shield?


Xeall wrote:
Claxon wrote:


What I would like to see is a Soldier fighting style that involves shields that let you do it as part of other actions to do things or makes the benefit last longer so you don't have to spend the action each turn.

This works for me. Like a Sci-fi Phalanx archetype.

As it stands for me, shields seem to be a joy for casters who just need to cast and little else.

Quick thought, does this make the haste circuit even better as it allows a full attack and then raise a shield?

No, the extra move action from Haste effects has to be used for actual movement.

The shields definitely open up a new caster build, but I'm not sure it's a very good one. They need to invest in Heavy Armor (they're not going to do Advanced Melee) to get shield proficiency, which means their dex is going to suffer for a strength diversion, hurting their (small arm instead of longarm) ranged attack accuracy when the spells run out. Which they will.

Until then, you're standing in place and only getting a big defensive boost against a single enemy. You're generally going to be better off just getting into cover and saving the build resources. But it's a cool flavor idea, and probably workable for a Kasatha mystic who can still wield a longarm with their shield and gets bonus strength to go with their casting stat bump.


Xenocrat wrote:

The shields definitely open up a new caster build, but I'm not sure it's a very good one. They need to invest in Heavy Armor (they're not going to do Advanced Melee) to get shield proficiency, which means their dex is going to suffer for a strength diversion, hurting their (small arm instead of longarm) ranged attack accuracy when the spells run out. Which they will.

If you just want shields, why not take advanced melee proficiency? A max Dex caster has decent AC in light and could take advantage of operative advanced melee weapons for melee range options when spells would provoke an AoO. The whole point of a shield is AC when you can't afford to move to cover with a move action, which might be due to you being in melee range.


The whole point of a shield is to provide a shiny mildly trap option to profit off and silence the people who have been bizarrely begging for shields in their science fantasy game.

And to buff extra arms races.

If you’re taking Advanced Melee as a Technomancer you need strength for damage and heavy armor anyway, your real decision is between 1h and shield or 2h melee build.


oh hey look they are being playetested with the Vanguard.

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