Kineticist - duration of Telekinetic Haul


Rules Questions


Telekinetic Haul - duration: "increases" Basic Telekinesis' to 1 minute/level
Basic Telekinesis - duration: unspecified (but references Mage Hand, which has duration: concentration)

I'm seeing (e.g. Telekinetic-Haul-Duration) (also Telekinetic-Haul-a-Whole-New-World and Two-questions-about-the-Kineticist-talent) several "this is how our DM runs it", but nothing official. Is this "the consensus of houserules is acceptable, so there's no need to issue a correction" or "any houserule is fine, it's utterly up to the DM exactly how Telekinetic Haul works"?

I am not the DM in this case, nor am I the player of the kineticist - but I do have a keen interest in finding out whether that character can function as an airship with limited daily lift-offs.


honestly I didn't know there was a controversy. I played an Aether a.k.a. Jedi kineticist and thought it seemed clear that Haul changes the duratation from concentration to 1/minute per level. This makes it so you don't need to waste actions and concentrate to use in combat, and out of combat lets you do amazing things but at a balanced price of burning/killing yourself every X amount of minutes. I feel like everyone in those forums you linked wanted the answer to be different so they created a controversy that isn't there. It would in fact be awesome to be able to do 1000 lbs per level as concentration, but c'mon.... do you reeeeally think thats RAW or RAI? reasonably not.

But.... if you want to really control an airship, you should just play any class with the spell possess object. It's hours per level, and you ARE the airship :D


The duration is concentration unless you accept burn while using TK Haul, in which case it's 1 min/level.


thelemonache wrote:
I feel like everyone in those forums you linked wanted the answer to be different so they created a controversy that isn't there. It would in fact be awesome to be able to do 1000 lbs per level as concentration, but c'mon.... do you reeeeally think thats RAW or RAI? reasonably not.

Yeah, at-will (and permanent) powers are generally nerfed, it seems. If ever-so-slightly ambiguous wording is a pin, though, the magnet is a munchkin.

The player (of this Kineticist) is a 2nd-edition player with no prior experience at Pathfinder - somehow he had the idea that it was a super-powered "I can blast things all day long! And read minds!" type. (He took a Kalashtar, but when helping him through chargen, I pointed out that neither Mindlink nor any of his class abilities would enable him to read minds. There also appear to not be any Favored Class Bonuses, and I offered to redesign/retcon a Vigilante Warlock, but if he has a useful enough ability for the group, it would take less time to figure that out and sell him on it.)

thelemonache wrote:
But.... if you want to really control an airship, you should just play any class with the spell possess object. It's hours per level, and you ARE the airship :D

But then your enemies have an airship to steal/sabotage when left unguarded. (Now, for a spell to sabotage an airship with . . . ) A small platform (enough to cover with an Eversmoking Bottle) could float along slowly, high over the ground, looking much like a cloud. Who needs long-term invisibility when your appearance is utterly innocuous?


I've heard of people playing it as concentration+1 minute per level, which means that when you stop concentrating the 1 minute per level duration kicks in.

You could also play it as concentration or 1 minute per level, whichever is longer.

The issue is that "increases to" has a different meaning than "becomes" or "changes to". "Increases to" implies that the new value should always be greater than the old value.


Melkiador wrote:
I've heard of people playing it as concentration+1 minute per level, which means that when you stop concentrating the 1 minute per level duration kicks in.

Excellent.

I can bring "anecdotal evidence from both sides of the house-rule aisle" to the DM, now; he'll decide what is appropriate for his campaign's power-level.

(I'm not sure the player will want it since I've also figured out, as of last night, what he was looking for: the psychokineticist, "Psions who specialize in psychokinesis are known as kineticists". With the right feat, he can read minds.)

Well, if the DM says yes, he'll have two options. Thanks for sharing what you've heard!


Quote:
When using basic telekinesis, you can move an object that weighs up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess. When using your telekinetic blast, you can throw an object weighing up to 100 pounds per kineticist level you possess, but this doesn't increase the damage. If you accept 1 point of burn, the maximum weight increases to 1,000 pounds per kineticist level you possess and the duration increases to 1 minute per kineticist level you possess.

If you're just moving 100lbs/level then the duration is concentration (as basic telekinesis).

If you accept 1 point of burn, then you can move 1,000lbs/level for 1 minute/level.
After the 1 minute/level, your limit drops back to 100lbs/level until you accept another point of burn.


If you just read the ability text, I fail to see how there is a debate except where players are trying to squeeze more out of it than written. It is pretty clear cut as Helpful Harry has noted.


The issue is where it says, "the duration increases to 1 minute per kineticist level". if it were simply changing the duration to 1 minute per level, then it'd instead say something like, "the duration changes to 1 minute per kineticist level" or "the duration becomes 1 minute per kineticist level". Both of those options would be more descriptive while using fewer characters. But since the duration "increases", then something else is likely meant to be at play.


Not at all. Maybe so if it was "increases by..." But it says "increases to" which means it is explicitly telling what the new duration is.


Only if that new duration was an increase. Which is why I had earlier listed my preferred interpretation that it is to use either concentration or minutes per level, whichever was longer. Because saying that a duration of concentration increases to minutes per level, only makes sense if the minutes per level is actually greater than the concentration.

It is like saying that your "apples increases to oranges".

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