Fusion Item Levels


Rules Questions


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

If I'm understanding this correctly, the RAW say that you can only attach a single fusion (seal or otherwise) to any given weapon, and that said fusion has to be the exact same level as the weapon.

I'm getting this from these two lines: "A fusion seal affects only weapons of a given level or less, as noted in parentheses after the name of the fusion seal. For example, a holy fusion seal that could be applied to any weapon of 10th level or lower would be written holy fusion seal (10th)." (pg 191) Holy is naturally a second level fusion. So now fusion seals A) have an item level of their own, chosen at creation, and B) can only apply to weapons with a level equal to or LESS than their own level.

But on the next page, under Multiple Fusions and Multiple Targets, the text reads "You can place multiple fusions on the same weapon, but only if the weapon's item level is equal to or greater than the combined total of all the fusion's item levels." (pg 192) So now C) fusions can only affect weapons with a level equal to or GREATER than their own level.

Taken all together, our 10th level holy seal can only be applied to any weapon 10th level or lower, but can only affect a weapon 10th level or higher. Therefore, we can only attach it to a 10th level weapon, and we can only attach the one seal. There is no possibility for multiple seals, and whenever you get a higher-level item you have to throw out your old seals and buy a new one of the same level. If I want to attach Called to my 20th level weapon, it costs me 135,000 credits, and I certainly can't attach Vorpal as well.

This can't be what Pazio MEANT. It's just what they SAID. So what do I do?


Quote:
A fusion seal affects only weapons of a given level or less, as noted in parentheses after the name of the fusion seal. For example, a holy fusion seal that could be applied to any weapon of 10th level or lower would be written holy fusion seal (10th).

There's two different things going on here. A fusion seal has a special limit of what weapons it can effect, which in this example is 10th. That is separate from the level of the fusion itself and those normal rules, which for holy is only level 2 and is not changed by the separate seal limitation. So a holy fusion seal (10th) can only apply to a weapon of level 10 or below, and it counts as 2 levels of fusion for determining the maximum number of fusions that can apply to that weapon.


So you're treating the item level of the fusion seal and the level of the fusion itself as two separate things?

That doesn't sound like a RAW answer - the RAW use the words "item level" throughout, and don't seem to make that distinction. However, I need a practical answer more than I need an official one, so that's fine.

Therefore, practically speaking, the Called seals everyone bought at level 1 would be worthless the instant you got a level 2 weapon, and you'd have to buy a higher seal level. That's why you'd get a 10th level Holy seal in the first place - so it can be applied to your level 8, 9, and 10 weapons. Yes?

However, it also implies that Vorpal and Holy for a 10th level weapon cost the same, with the only difference being the number of additional fusions that can be used. This seems weird.


Lord Ryst wrote:

So you're treating the item level of the fusion seal and the level of the fusion itself as two separate things?

That doesn't sound like a RAW answer - the RAW use the words "item level" throughout, and don't seem to make that distinction.

The text never calls the parenthetical level of the weapon that it affects the item level of the fusion seal itself.

Fusion Seal wrote:
A fusion seal affects only weapons of a given level or less, as noted in parentheses after the name of the fusion seal. For example, a holy fusion seal that could be applied to any weapon of 10th level or lower would be written holy fusion seal (10th).
Lord Ryst wrote:


Therefore, practically speaking, the Called seals everyone bought at level 1 would be worthless the instant you got a level 2 weapon, and you'd have to buy a higher seal level. That's why you'd get a 10th level Holy seal in the first place - so it can be applied to your level 8, 9, and 10 weapons. Yes?

However, it also implies that Vorpal and Holy for a 10th level weapon cost the same, with the only difference being the number of additional fusions that can be used. This seems weird.

Right. There's the cost level, which determines how much you pay and the maximum level of the weapon that the fusion goes on. Then there's the level of the fusion stated in its description, which is the limit on how many fusions of what power you can put on a weapon. The "power level" of all fusions added together cannot exceed the level of the weapon, and each individual fusion much cost as much or more than the weapon's level on table 7-13, plus 10% if it's a fusion seal.

In a game system with a history of terrible confusion in using the word "level," this may be the worst.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure, Card Game, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Looking to determine the value of a

called (fusion) dispelling (fusion) carbon steel curve blade.

Is it: (where both fusions are installed as lvl 4)

2230 carbon steel curved blade [Lvl 4]
680 called Lvl [Lvl 1]
680 dispelling [Lvl 3]
3590 total

OR: (where each fusion is installed at its level)

2230 carbon steel curved blade [Lvl 4]
120 called [Lvl 1]
440 dispelling [Lvl 3]
2790 total

?


Sliska Zafir wrote:

Looking to determine the value of a

called (fusion) dispelling (fusion) carbon steel curve blade.

Is it: (where both fusions are installed as lvl 4)

2230 carbon steel curved blade [Lvl 4]
680 called Lvl [Lvl 1]
680 dispelling [Lvl 3]
3590 total

OR: (where each fusion is installed at its level)

2230 carbon steel curved blade [Lvl 4]
120 called [Lvl 1]
440 dispelling [Lvl 3]
2790 total

?

After reading this thread, I would go with the first option, you need to buy the 4th level item version of the seals, 680 CR each, or even higher if you go with fusion seals that are easier to move to higher level weapons at a later time.

In my opinion, the wording of this rule is one of the more confusing--everyone should be hitting the "FAQ" button on the first post in this thread to request attention from Paizo developers.


No faq required

[Fusions] and [fusion seals] are slightly different items. It really doesn't help that for an adventurer a [Fusion] is just hands down better than a [fusion seal]. You're reading them as the same item with the same rules and they're not.

Fusions go on a weapon. It comes a bag of UPBs or eagle feathers demons blood and fairy dust. Anyone trained in mysticism or engineering can take 10 minutes and enchant the weapon. The weapon needs to have an item level of at least that of the fusion, and you can have [item level here
] levels worth of fusions on something.

For half the cost of enchanting a new weapon, you can move a fusion from one weapon to the other. Which makes it cheaper to put a level 1 fusion on a level 9 gun than a level 9 fusion. (slightly over half the price)

Fusion seals go on a weapon. It comes as little disk (think jackie chan talismans). The upside is that anyone can move a fusion seal from one weapon to another. The downside is that they don't WORK for 24 hours when you do. The other downside is that a fusion has an Fusion level (1 for called, 9 for vorpal) and an item level (it only works on items that level or lower)

The chances of someone needing to move a fusion seal from one weapon to another with the same item level with 24 hours notice is... pretty small.


ThermalCat wrote:


After reading this thread, I would go with the first option, you need to buy the 4th level item version of the seals, 680 CR each, or even higher if you go with fusion seals that are easier to move to higher level weapons at a later time.

.. dammit thread necro.

Fusion seals can't move to a higher weapon unless you pay more for the seals in the first place.


BigNorseWolf wrote:

No faq required

[Fusions] and [fusion seals] are slightly different items. It really doesn't help that for an adventurer a [Fusion] is just hands down better than a [fusion seal]. You're reading them as the same item with the same rules and they're not.

Yeah, sorry, I jumped the gun and answered before reading some other threads on the subject where I think it was you who clarified that Fusions are just about always preferable to Fusion Seals.

A seal is only nifty if you have no skill in mysticism or engineering skill, either in yourself, the party or anyone you could hire.

Scarab Sages

I can see a benefit to fusion seals over fusions then.

If you can "hot swap" fusion seals it is great for changing your weapon's damage type. Start with a projectile weapon to maximise damage and change the damage type to an energy so you target EAC and use batterys.


Horselord wrote:

I can see a benefit to fusion seals over fusions then.

If you can "hot swap" fusion seals it is great for changing your weapon's damage type. Start with a projectile weapon to maximise damage and change the damage type to an energy so you target EAC and use batterys.

While you can move the seal in a few seconds, it doesn't start working for 24 hours. Making it pretty useless once you're in the field.

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