Turned to stone and aging or starving


Rules Questions

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If one would encounter the statue of some poor sod subject to some kind of turn to stone effect a few centuries earlier, when successfully applying a Stone to Flesh, would the revived form be the age they were when enstoned or do they age when trapped in stone?

You know the next question I will be asking is if the centuries old statue also trapped the victim's soul?

The glossary entry for Petrified says "A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious". Does that mean you are subject to starvation when turned to stone, like any other unconscious being would be?


I asked James Jacobs the latter half of this question, about if petrification holds the soul in limbo. He answered that if the statue ended up damaged to the point where Stone to Flesh would result in instant death, then the person is considered dead, and their soul heads off to the boneyard.

I'd assume that petrification preserves the person at the moment it happens. I know this was used in Eberron that there were people, so sickened of the horrors of war, that willingly preserved themselves with Flesh to Stone to wait out the war that was tearing the world apart at the time.


I like that myself. But my players are about to encounter a room of turned to stone adventurers from years gone by and my gut tells me they will find a way to revive one of them. I don't feel they should be able to divine much about the statues while they are stone. They would not have auras, and their souls would not have traveled to the beyond. I just want to make sure it is correct to play Petrification as a poor man's temporal stasis.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

It's actually a plot-point in a recent PFS scenario.

The idea of a group of individuals 'stoning' themselves to 'travel to a better future' is kind of appealing. I think I need to make a Starfinder character based on this idea.


So, I SHOULD play it as a poor man's Temporal Stasis.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Just realize if they are say, statuary of someone in combat with say, a medusa or the like, that they may not be the most amenable to diplomacy or negotiation until they are assured the threat is no more.


2bz2p wrote:
So, I SHOULD play it as a poor man's Temporal Stasis.

Yeppers. temporal stasis makes the target nearly unkillable. Petrification does not, but 11th level casters are (relatively) much more common than 15th+.

Keep in mind that stone to flesh - I think - carries a risk of death upon depetrification.


Wei Ji the Learner wrote:


It's actually a plot-point in a recent PFS scenario.

The idea of a group of individuals 'stoning' themselves to 'travel to a better future' is kind of appealing. I think I need to make a Starfinder character based on this idea.

It's a great way to 'convert' a Pathfinder character to Starfinder, along with starfaring robes gone a wee bit off target by getting sucked into the initial formation of the Drift and slung in stasis eons into the future. A few years' retraining and *pouf*, you're a bad-ass in Starfinder.


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I was thinking Necklace of Adaptation, perhaps Ring of Sustenance worn by someone who was petrified on a world/worldlet and was found in space adrift, thankfully undamaged.

Unfortunately, the magic items needed to be sold off to clear the debt of body recovery, resuscitation, and retraining..


I had a Dwarf character who was petrified, and I just gave him a knowledge history bonus. The only hungry statues I know of are the Weeping Angels.:)

My take is that a statue has zero metabolism and does not become hungrier or thirstier. The mind, if still active, might go mad being forced to watch things helplessly.


Goth Guru wrote:

I had a Dwarf character who was petrified, and I just gave him a knowledge history bonus. The only hungry statues I know of are the Weeping Angels.:)

My take is that a statue has zero metabolism and does not become hungrier or thirstier. The mind, if still active, might go mad being forced to watch things helplessly.

Madness is far more likely to occur from total sensory deprivation (no sight, no hearing, no tactical sense, no olfactory sense is a bad combination for most minds). Thus 3e petrification is a poor man's stasis.


Well - not "watch" -- if all other stone organs went inert by being stone, so would the eyes. Perhaps the brain being turned to stone is like a powerful anesthetic, which essentially brings the higher brain functions to a near stop. For the enstoned, there would be no passage of time at all, just a short black out. You saw a basilisk and bang, you are in shock awakening with some stranger standing next to you.


The Mad Comrade wrote:
2bz2p wrote:
So, I SHOULD play it as a poor man's Temporal Stasis.
Yeppers. temporal stasis makes the target nearly unkillable. Petrification does not, but 11th level casters are (relatively) much more common than 15th+.

Sepia Snake Sigil would need a regular refreshing, but it's only level 3. And you're not dependant on other people to wake you.


VRMH wrote:
The Mad Comrade wrote:
2bz2p wrote:
So, I SHOULD play it as a poor man's Temporal Stasis.
Yeppers. temporal stasis makes the target nearly unkillable. Petrification does not, but 11th level casters are (relatively) much more common than 15th+.
Sepia Snake Sigil would need a regular refreshing, but it's only level 3. And you're not dependant on other people to wake you.

costs money, dispellable .... nah ;)


Wierd Tangent
Would a Starfinder Scientist be able to extract DNA from a still petrified character?


Daw wrote:

Wierd Tangent

Would a Starfinder Scientist be able to extract DNA from a still petrified character?

I would say no.

Stone by nature is inorganic, if the creature has been turned to stone it doesn't even have DNA anymore.

Why? Magic.


And yet, it is reversible, somehow all the "information" is somehow still there, even to the point that it can convince the soul that the body is still viable, so the soul should stick around, possibly for millennia.

Hmm, would forced reincarnate work on a petrified person?

EDIT ADD
"Because Magic" is a Dodge
Almost as bad as "It is what it Is"


I'm thinking "it depends". Some versions of petrification fossilize the target, from which one could extract DNA.

Which, if the petrified target is ... time-worn ... the science-cloning would result in the same character coming to without having suffered anywhere from centuries to eons of time gnawing on their stone make-up. With enough time even stone becomes dust...


Daw wrote:

And yet, it is reversible, somehow all the "information" is somehow still there, even to the point that it can convince the soul that the body is still viable, so the soul should stick around, possibly for millennia.

Hmm, would forced reincarnate work on a petrified person?

EDIT ADD
"Because Magic" is a Dodge
Almost as bad as "It is what it Is"

I'm sorry that you don't like the answer of "It's magic:. I too often find it annoying, however that is almost exactly he point of magic. It's not explainable with physic, science, or other understanding of the universe. It rewrites the normal rules of the universe and substitutes its own.

I understand this is frustrating, but you're asking for an explanation for how magic works, when the real answer is "It doesn't, and this is just a game of make believe".

As to your other question, no forced reincarnate wouldn't work on them as they're not alive or dead. The soul is still connected to the body, but the body being "preserved" as stone. You could destroy the stone, and kill the person but I would say they are otherwise immune to most things. It is basically like a lower level temporal stasis (as mentioned before) but has the drawback of leaving you quite vulnerable to being killed (through the destruction of your statue).


Just make sure all subjects succeed at their DC 15 Fortitude check to survive returning to flesh..


Claxon wrote:
As to your other question, no forced reincarnate wouldn't work on them as they're not alive or dead. The soul is still connected to the body, but the body being "preserved" as stone. You could destroy the stone, and kill the person but I would say they are otherwise immune to most things. It is basically like a lower level temporal stasis (as mentioned before) but has the drawback of leaving you quite vulnerable to being killed (through the destruction of your statue).

I pulled up the Hex in question.

Witch Grand Hex wrote:
PFS Legal Forced Reincarnation (Su) (Advanced Player's Guide pg. 69 (Amazon)): The witch causes a creature within 30 feet to die and be immediately reincarnated into a new body. A Will save negates this effect. Those that fail are slain and immediately brought back to life with the spell reincarnate. Whether or not the save is successful, a creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 1 day.
Trigger Loaded wrote:

asked James Jacobs the latter half of this question, about if petrification holds the soul in limbo. He answered that if the statue ended up damaged to the point where Stone to Flesh would result in instant death, then the person is considered dead, and their soul heads off to the boneyard.

I'd assume that petrification preserves the person at the moment it happens. I know this was used in Eberron that there were people, so sickened of the horrors of war, that willingly preserved themselves with Flesh to Stone to wait out the war that was tearing the world apart at the time.

Now, there is nothing in that hex text that actually specifies a living target, so it should affect any target that can be killed, which the petrified body can be, per Mr. Jacobs, and your concession to that.

It may be hunting rabbits with an elephant gun, but it should work.
I have to disagree with you on this one.


A stone statue isn't a creature anymore. The hex specifies creatures.

Flesh to Stone wrote:
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

It's fairly standard Jerk Genie response to wishing for eternal youth/beauty to petrify the wisher. That implies no aging to me.


ryric wrote:
It's fairly standard Jerk Genie response to wishing for eternal youth/beauty to petrify the wisher. That implies no aging to me.

But you're beautiful ... forever ... ;)


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
ryric wrote:
It's fairly standard Jerk Genie response to wishing for eternal youth/beauty to petrify the wisher. That implies no aging to me.

Actually, if it's a jerk genie move, then I'd say that it'd require a Wish or Miracle sort of power to undo, but on the plus side, the statue-person *never* degrades?

Now there's this other idea percolating in my head...


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I'm a big fan of minor artifact-grade crystalline salt shaker statues as a result of impulsive wishes for eternal beauty. ;)


Claxon wrote:

A stone statue isn't a creature anymore. The hex specifies creatures.

Flesh to Stone wrote:
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue.

Sorry, but, unless casting stone to flesh on any random statue will turn it into a potentially viable living creature, (with a minimum 5% chance of survival, a 20!), then, NO, it is not just a stone statue. It is a body with a very unfortunate condition, but is still alive enough for the soul to recognize it is still alive. I should point out that in your original response you likened petrification to being the low-rent equivalent of temporal stasis. I understand evolving arguments, evolving assumptions, not so much.

What about this idea is soooo bad that you feel you must reflexively deny it, even if you can't really justify your decision?


Forced reincarnation would work ... but it would result in a petrified reincarnated creature.


No, sorry MC,

Reincarnate wrote:
Since the dead creature is returning in a new body, all physical ills and afflictions are repaired. The condition of the remains is not a factor. So long as some small portion of the creature's body still exists, it can be reincarnated, but the portion receiving the spell must have been part of the creature's body at the time of death. The magic of the spell creates an entirely new young adult body for the soul to inhabit from the natural elements at hand. This process takes 1 hour to complete. When the body is ready, the subject is reincarnated.

Now, most really powerful petrified creatures are going to save versus the killing of their body, so this won't completely trivialize Queen Medusae's City of Statues, they aren't exactly conscious enough to voluntarily waive their save. You still have restrictions on who is a valid target for reincarnation, so non-native outsiders and undead are still out, the most you can do is just kill them with the hex.

This is hardly a perfect solution, but it does add a desperation move to the 18th level witch's arsenal.


Depends on how one views "physical afflictions". :)

Good points though, thanks for those!

Scarab Sages

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2bz2p wrote:

If one would encounter the statue of some poor sod subject to some kind of turn to stone effect a few centuries earlier, when successfully applying a Stone to Flesh, would the revived form be the age they were when enstoned or do they age when trapped in stone?

You know the next question I will be asking is if the centuries old statue also trapped the victim's soul?

The glossary entry for Petrified says "A petrified character has been turned to stone and is considered unconscious". Does that mean you are subject to starvation when turned to stone, like any other unconscious being would be?

Up to the GM. If you allow stone to flesh to function as a stasis effect, then you have potential for the players to use it to travel forward in time. If that doesn't bug you, or your players just aren't creative enough to try that, then allow it to function as stasis.

Stasis (as in perserving mind, body and soul outside of time), is definitely the easiest route for the GM. It requires no new paperwork, just write "stoned" on the sheet of character or NPC affected and you can always come back to it later.

As for reviving them, no, they should qualify as perserved in the stone. You might make an exception if they are destroyed beyond repair once in stone form. You could also just have the players be required to "stone to flesh" + "Reincarnate" in order to resolve destroyed statues.

Though this thread has me thinking about a transmuter-necromancer which transforms the statues of living creatures into golems or animated objects (basically stone zombies). Would be tough for good-aligned PCs to cope with once they realized that damaging the object meant effectively killing an innocent.


Daw wrote:
Claxon wrote:

A stone statue isn't a creature anymore. The hex specifies creatures.

Flesh to Stone wrote:
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue.

Sorry, but, unless casting stone to flesh on any random statue will turn it into a potentially viable living creature, (with a minimum 5% chance of survival, a 20!), then, NO, it is not just a stone statue. It is a body with a very unfortunate condition, but is still alive enough for the soul to recognize it is still alive. I should point out that in your original response you likened petrification to being the low-rent equivalent of temporal stasis. I understand evolving arguments, evolving assumptions, not so much.

What about this idea is soooo bad that you feel you must reflexively deny it, even if you can't really justify your decision?

Sorry, I disagree.

I can't explain how Stone to Flesh Works (again MAGIC) but I disagree with your statement. The statue is no longer a creature. It's not a valid target.

When you use Stone to Flesh the magic of the spell restores it to being a creature if it once was.

Other things just become a pile of meat. My party once used this tactic to get through a wall, because it was easier to carve through a wall of flesh than adamantine.

As far as why I deny it, it's not reflexive. It's because the afflicted individual is not a creature anymore. It is a stone statue that if it is hit with Stone To Flesh can revert to its previous condition.

What about your reflexive decision causes you to think your position is justified? See, I can play that exact same game.

We have different opinions on how the fundamentals of Flesh to Stone and Stone to Flesh work. That doesn't mean that either is a reflexive position or without our reasons.

Truthfully, it doesn't much matter as I can't imagine much reason for wanting to try forced reincarnate on a petrified character except that you don't have access to Stone to Flesh to try to revive it. It's like a super corner case interaction where you have an 18th level witch, but couldn't get access to Stone to Flesh.


I'm with Daw here. Corpses are objects too, but they need to also be creatures with the Dead status for revival to work.


Citing the Whole Stone Flesh spell

PRD wrote:

FLESH TO STONE

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (lime, water, and earth)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one creature
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates; Spell Resistance yes
The subject, along with all its carried gear, turns into a mindless, inert statue. If the statue resulting from this spell is broken or damaged, the subject (if ever returned to its original state) has similar damage or deformities. The creature is not dead, but it does not seem to be alive either when viewed with spells such as deathwatch.

Only creatures made of flesh are affected by this spell.

OK, it is not JUST a statue, it is still a creature. And, no, OF COURSE stone to flesh doesn't turn statues into living being, because that only works on petrified creatures, so that statue must ALSO be a petrified creature.

PRD wrote:

STONE TO FLESH

School transmutation; Level sorcerer/wizard 6
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, M (a drop of blood mixed with earth)
Range medium (100 ft. + 10 ft./level)
Target one petrified creature or a cylinder of stone from 1 ft. to 3 ft. in diameter and up to 10 ft. long
Duration instantaneous
Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); see text; Spell Resistance yes
This spell restores a petrified creature to its normal state, restoring life and goods. The creature must make a DC 15 Fortitude save to survive the process. Any petrified creature, regardless of size, can be restored. The spell also can convert a mass of stone into a fleshy substance. Such flesh is inert and lacking a vital life force unless a life force or magical energy is available. For example, this spell would turn an animated stone statue into an animated flesh statue, but an ordinary statue would become a mass of inert flesh in the shape of the statue. You can affect an object that fits within a cylinder from 1 foot to 3 feet in diameter and up to 10 feet long or a cylinder of up to those dimensions in a larger mass of stone.

This next isn't a rules argument, but, honestly, Cause Magic just shouldn't be used to make things more boring and mundane.

And we all know my views on Cherry Picking, which may be out of character for your average bird. ^-^

EDIT ADD
I hold to my position, in a rules forum, when my position is supported by a thorough reading of the rules, doing my best to make sure that, taken en toto, they support my position.


Look, we can get all pedantic about reading the spell.

Or we can admit these particular spells aren't laid out in such a way that they even make sense. It can't be both a creature and a statue. One is an object, one is not an object. The spell is self contradictory on it's face.

When I read it, I read that line of "the creature" as a reference so you don't have really awkward descriptions such as "the statue that was formerly a creature".

Again, I realize I'm probably not going to convince you. But I also don't find your argument convincing. However, I understand that there is room to have different interpretations for how this works because the spells themselves are unclear.

I think the difference between us is that I'm willing to say it's unclear and poorly written, leading to a grey area that doesn't have 1 correct interpretation. While you seemed to be convinced that only your interpretation could be correct.


So, the rules as written really shouldn't be the basis of a Rules forum discussion.

I stand corrected, I guess.

Done.


It's not the rules can't be discussed, but you were being hostile towards my statements (at least that's how I was/am perceiving your responses).

Even now your claiming "RAW", which is meaningless in this case since the spell contradicts itself.

Also, you know very well that there is no such thing as "RAW" since everything you read has to be interpreted. If you're claiming that your interpretation is the most literal interpretation of the written words, perhaps it is. That still doesn't make it necessarily correct.

There is sufficient ambiguity in the way the spell is written that either interpretation could be valid.

I simply have the preference that Flesh to Stone makes a statue for all intents and purposes, except that if that former creature is targeted by Stone to Flesh it resume being a creature in the same exact state as when it was originally transformed.


How does the spell contradict itself? The creature is turned into a statue. It's still a creature; it's also a statue.

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A statue made from flesh to stone is an object with the creature subtype as it were. A petrified creature isn't "living" in any good sense of the word and can't really die so much as be destroyed and let the trapped soul depart.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

An aside: a statue has been shattered into 'sand', but you have all the bits. how would it be restored to life, our even an outside chance?


Bwang wrote:
An aside: a statue has been shattered into 'sand', but you have all the bits. how would it be restored to life, our even an outside chance?

resurrection will work with the dust that remains from a disintegrate so it should work just as well with the stone-sourced dust from a petrified creature.


The creature does not seem to actually DIE until returned to flesh though... A pile of sand statue is still technically aliveish, right?

So... Make Whole + Stone to Flesh


What if you true resurrect someone that is turned to stone then later their body is turned back to flesh.


I don't think your resurrection spell works. They are not dead.


So I would need to break the statue to true resurrect them?


Going off my understanding of flesh to stone and stone to flesh, a petrified creature is damaged in the same way it's statue is damaged 'at the time it is turned back to flesh'. I don't think a broken petrified creature is dead, I think you can put the statue back together and revive them just fine.

I think you would need to flesh them, or completely remove all remnants of the statue from existence, or in some other way insure that the soul goes free.


I feel like if you knock the statues head off that should be good enough for them to count as dead.


I feel like if you glue it back on, that should still count as alive...

Edit: More importantly, if you have access to the body, why bother true resurrecting? Stone to Flesh + Breath of life or something. Worst case scenario, break off a hand and take it with you, you can Stone to Flesh it later.


I would disagree with the glue except maybe if we are talking about sovereign glue.

Lol so I pull the head off statue dead place it on alive again rinse repeat until some death god gets real angry.

Edit: sorry I don't have flesh to stone memorized today.


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I don't know that any other glue exists in golarion

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