Grey Maiden / Hellknight Plate of Speed?


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2/5

Would you be able to get Full Plate of Speed as grey maiden plate, or Hellknight Plate, or would that be considered a custom item?

Grey Maiden Plate wrote:
Gray Maiden plate is mechanically identical to full plate, and any effect that functions with full plate functions with Gray Maiden plate.
Hellknight Plate wrote:
These distinctive suits of armor are a special type of masterwork full plate that grant additional effects when worn by a character with levels in the Hellknight prestige class. Apart from its distinctive look (each order of Hellknights has its own style of armor), a suit of Hellknight plate functions the same as a suit of masterwork full plate.

The mechanically identical statement makes me think it might be possible, but I'm not sure.

The Exchange 3/5

Mithral Full Plate of Speed is a specific magic item. Making it of other armors would be a custom item and isn't legal.

2/5

That's what I assumed, but especially where hellknight plate says that it is a type of full plate made me think it might be legal.

1/5

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I certainly intended for it to be an option with the Gray Maiden plate. That's what that bit after the comma was for. ^_^

1/5

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...but this is PFS, and table variation is the universal constant. Be prepared for GMs to have their own interpretations of any given rule.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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I know that Hellknight Plate is mechanically different from Full Plate, including cost, so that wouldn't work.

I don't know anything about the other one. Judging by the quote, maybe?

I wouldn't risk it, though. That's a lot of money for the occasional GM to disallow.

Shadow Lodge

Isabelle Lee wrote:
I certainly intended for it to be an option with the Gray Maiden plate. That's what that bit after the comma was for. ^_^

Regardless of your intent, Mithral Grey Maiden Plate of Speed would still be a custom item as much as a suit of Mithral Full Plate of Speed with armor spikes would be. Specific magic weapons and armor can only be exactly what their description says; you can't have a Mithral Grey Maiden Plate of Speed any more than you could have a luck blade made from a gladius.

This discussion has been had before in the form of making specific magic weapons out of special materials. Any deviation from the what the description of the specific magic weapon/armor says it is puts this in "custom item" territory. Making Grey Maiden/Hellknight plate versions of Mithral Full Plate of Speed is a totally reasonable thing for a GM to allow... outside of PFS. In PFS, we don't have that option.

2/5

If that was the intent maybe we could get a FAQ/campaign clarification on it?

3/5 *** Venture-Agent, Massachusetts—Boston Metro

SCPRedMage wrote:

This discussion has been had before in the form of making specific magic weapons out of special materials. Any deviation from the what the description of the specific magic weapon/armor says it is puts this in "custom item" territory. Making Grey Maiden/Hellknight plate versions of Mithral Full Plate of Speed is a totally reasonable thing for a GM to allow... outside of PFS. In PFS, we don't have that option.

These conversations have never come up before because the mechanics really never existed before Adventurer's Guide. Hellknight Plate is kind of oddball because it does actually state in the description that its a variant of full plate whereas Gray Maiden Plate is decorative armor.

Silver Crusade

SCPRedMage wrote:
Mithral Grey Maiden Plate of Speed would still be a custom item as much as a suit of Mithral Full Plate of Speed with armor spikes would be.

*tilts head*

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

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I am 100% sure the answer to your question is yes given that there is text in both Hellknight Full Plate and Grey Maiden full plate descriptions that explicitly says for mechanical purposes, they are Full Plate.

Anyone saying otherwise is daft.

Shadow Lodge

Douglas Edwards wrote:

I am 100% sure the answer to your question is yes given that there is text in both Hellknight Full Plate and Grey Maiden full plate descriptions that explicitly says for mechanical purposes, they are Full Plate.

Anyone saying otherwise is daft.

It doesn't matter if it says it counts as Full Plate; a specific magic weapon or armor is exactly what it says in the description, and nothing more. Any deviation from what the description says means it's no longer that specific magic armor, putting it in "custom item" territory. That means no making it out of a special materials when the normal version isn't, and no substituting a different base armor, even if it's mechanically identical. Any time you change something about the item, it's no longer that specific magic armor.

Allowing Hellknight and Grey Maiden full plate to be substituted for full plate-based specific magic armors is about as perfectly reasonable as a house-rule can get (especially for Grey Maiden plate, which doesn't change the price like Hellknight does), but it's just that: a house-rule. Unless the Campaign Clarifications doc gets updated to allow this, it's not PFS legal.

And maybe not end with an insult to anyone who disagrees with you.

1/5

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My point about table variation continues to hold true. For every rule, no matter how "obvious", you'll find someone whoo disagrees.

Ask your local GMs how they'll rule on it, and move on.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

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SCPRedMage wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:

I am 100% sure the answer to your question is yes given that there is text in both Hellknight Full Plate and Grey Maiden full plate descriptions that explicitly says for mechanical purposes, they are Full Plate.

Anyone saying otherwise is daft.

It doesn't matter if it says it counts as Full Plate; a specific magic weapon or armor is exactly what it says in the description, and nothing more. Any deviation from what the description says means it's no longer that specific magic armor, putting it in "custom item" territory. That means no making it out of a special materials when the normal version isn't, and no substituting a different base armor, even if it's mechanically identical. Any time you change something about the item, it's no longer that specific magic armor.

Allowing Hellknight and Grey Maiden full plate to be substituted for full plate-based specific magic armors is about as perfectly reasonable as a house-rule can get (especially for Grey Maiden plate, which doesn't change the price like Hellknight does), but it's just that: a house-rule. Unless the Campaign Clarifications doc gets updated to allow this, it's not PFS legal.

And maybe not end with an insult to anyone who disagrees with you.

No, they just straight up ARE Full Plate both of them are.

Check the Hellknight Plate again - it's a masterwork full plate, full stop. Its just one of a particular style.

If it's mechanically identical, it is mechanically identical. Not mechanically identical except when the GM is feeling particularly pedantic.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Hellknight Plate is indeed mechanically different from Fullplate (links provided as evidence). They have different costs and Armor Check Penalties.

I can't find the other one, so I won't debate it. You may be correct there for all I know.

Furthermore, "functions the same as" can be read differently by different people. I, personally, would not read it to mean you could create Hellknight Plate of Speed. If you had a class ability that, say, allowed you to move at full speed in Fullplate, then I, personally, would believe that would apply when wearing Hellknight Plate.

I also point to the Mithral Armor FAQ as further evidence. Sometimes you can indeed have something that "functions as" something else, but "really is" something different.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I don't see why name-calling is required here, either.

Silver Crusade

The Hellknight Plate may cost a bit more but the difference in ACP is because Hellknight Plate is Masterworked Fullplate.

The Exchange 4/5 5/5

Douglas Edwards wrote:
SCPRedMage wrote:
Douglas Edwards wrote:

I am 100% sure the answer to your question is yes given that there is text in both Hellknight Full Plate and Grey Maiden full plate descriptions that explicitly says for mechanical purposes, they are Full Plate.

Anyone saying otherwise is daft.

It doesn't matter if it says it counts as Full Plate; a specific magic weapon or armor is exactly what it says in the description, and nothing more. Any deviation from what the description says means it's no longer that specific magic armor, putting it in "custom item" territory. That means no making it out of a special materials when the normal version isn't, and no substituting a different base armor, even if it's mechanically identical. Any time you change something about the item, it's no longer that specific magic armor.

Allowing Hellknight and Grey Maiden full plate to be substituted for full plate-based specific magic armors is about as perfectly reasonable as a house-rule can get (especially for Grey Maiden plate, which doesn't change the price like Hellknight does), but it's just that: a house-rule. Unless the Campaign Clarifications doc gets updated to allow this, it's not PFS legal.

And maybe not end with an insult to anyone who disagrees with you.

No, they just straight up ARE Full Plate both of them are.

Check the Hellknight Plate again - it's a masterwork full plate, full stop. Its just one of a particular style.

If it's mechanically identical, it is mechanically identical. Not mechanically identical except when the GM is feeling particularly pedantic.

Question: If my 2nd level Hellknight wears "regular" masterwork full plate does he get to move at full speed?

Like many others I think that having Hellknight Plate of Speed is perfectly reasonable. But I also recognize that it would require an official allowance. And there are simply too many other potentially reasonable allowances for Paizo's staff to dedicate time to saying yeah or nay to each one. "Can I have a Lockpick Shield made from a klar? How about a madu?"

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Rysky wrote:
The Hellknight Plate may cost a bit more but the difference in ACP is because Hellknight Plate is Masterworked Fullplate.

Ah. Good catch. In that case we would just have to reconcile the extra 350gp.

Would Hellknight Plate of Speed simply cost more?

I am also not against the idea of it existing, but it seems to be the perfect candidate for a Campaign Clarification.

Silver Crusade

Nefreet wrote:
Rysky wrote:
The Hellknight Plate may cost a bit more but the difference in ACP is because Hellknight Plate is Masterworked Fullplate.

Ah. Good catch. In that case we would just have to reconcile the extra 350gp.

Would Hellknight Plate of Speed simply cost more?

I am also not against the idea of it existing, but it seems to be the perfect candidate for a Campaign Clarification.

Have you seen Hellknight plate?

That is some fancy s+#!.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

*blinks*

Silver Crusade

No really, look.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Okay, I'll upgrade my stance of "I am not against the idea of it existing" to an enthusiastic "Let's make this work!" ^_^

Silver Crusade

Yay!

1/5

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It bears mentioning that Hellknight plate does have at least one mechanical difference - namely, the price. I specifically made sure the Gray Maiden plate didn't change anything (price, stats, masterwork status, etc.) from regular full plate, for exactly this reason. ^_^

Silver Crusade

Isabelle Lee wrote:
It bears mentioning that Hellknight plate does have at least one mechanical difference - namely, the price. I specifically made sure the Gray Maiden plate didn't change anything (price, stats, masterwork status, etc.) from regular full plate, for exactly this reason. ^_^

Thank you!

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Isabelle Lee wrote:
Hellknight plate does have at least one mechanical difference - namely, the price. I specifically made sure the Gray Maiden plate didn't change anything (price, stats, masterwork status, etc.) from regular full plate, for exactly this reason. ^_^

If that's the case (where is this item from?), then I think the argument would swing strongly towards allowing Grey Maiden Plate of Speed.

So Hellknight Plate is what the Campaign Clarification would have to cover.

Silver Crusade

Gray Maiden Plate is from the Adventure's Guide.

The Exchange 3/5

I think the item is a bit contradictory and would need clarification first.

Quote:

Gray Maiden plate is mechanically identical to full plate

Certain options for Gray Maidens function only when they wear Gray Maiden plate.

It clearly isn't mechanically the same and even if it was it is still a custom magic item without clarification. This is basically asking for reskinning the item but it actually DOES have a change in mechanics for a class.

Silver Crusade

... it says right there in the first line that it's mechanically identical.

The Exchange 3/5

Rysky wrote:
... it says right there in the first line that it's mechanically identical.

I am saying what it says and what it does is contradictory.

2/5

Unfortunately I'm with Ragoz. Even if it is mechanically identical, its still a different item, so without a campaign clarification on it you couldn't do it in pfs.

Silver Crusade

Grey Maidens get additional effects when wearing it, that doesn't make it stop being Fullplate though.

Shadow Lodge

Rysky wrote:

Grey Maidens get additional effects when wearing it, that doesn't make it stop being Fullplate though.

But it is a distinct, separate item, and thus swapping out standard full plate for Grey Maiden plate in a set of specific magic armor constitutes making a "custom" item.

I understand that Grey Maiden is statistically identical to full plate. I understand that its description even says "any effect that functions with full plate functions with Gray Maiden plate", but the fact that it was printed as its own item means that it is technically a different item than full plate. While you could certainly apply any hypothetical magic armor special ability that only works on full plate to Grey Maiden plate (or even Hellknight plate), you can't out the base item on a specific magic armor for anything, even if it counts as the original.

The Exchange 3/5

Rysky wrote:

Grey Maidens get additional effects when wearing it, that doesn't make it stop being Fullplate though.

It isn't mechanically the same then. I'm not saying an exception can't be made but currently the campaign rules wouldn't allow it.

If it WAS allowed then the item wouldn't even be grey maiden plate anymore. It would become:

Quote:

Mithral Full Plate of Speed

Aura faint transmutation CL 5th
Slot armor; Price 26,500 gp; Weight 25 lbs.

Description

As a free action, the wearer of this fine set of +1 mithral full plate can activate it, enabling him to act as though affected by a haste spell for up to 10 rounds each day. The duration of the haste effect need not be consecutive rounds. The armor has an arcane spell failure chance of 25%, a maximum Dexterity bonus of +3, and an armor check penalty of –3. It is considered medium armor, except that you must be proficient in heavy armor to avoid taking nonproficiency penalties.

Construction
Requirements Craft Magic Arms and Armor, haste; Price 18,500 gp

Anything deviating from this exact item is custom.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

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This argument and ones like it are literally why people walk away from PFS.

This is pedantic verging on pure stupidity, especially given that we have the designer right here telling you her intention.

Silver Crusade

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Ragoz wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Grey Maidens get additional effects when wearing it, that doesn't make it stop being Fullplate though.

It isn't mechanically the same then.

It is though, because the differences are dependent on the character (whether though Class or Feat), not the item. A Warpriest gets additional benefits when wielding their Deity's favored weapon*, that doesn't make the weapon mechanically different than another weapon of the same kind. A Fighter with Weapon Training: Heavy Blades and Weapon Mastery feats for them can get additional benefits when wielding a bastard sword than someone else, but it's not a mechanically different weapon from a bastard sword being wielded by someone else.

Shadow Lodge

Douglas Edwards wrote:

This argument and ones like it are literally why people walk away from PFS.

This is pedantic verging on pure stupidity, especially given that we have the designer right here telling you her intention.

Maybe instead of calling us stupid or accusing us of chasing off players, you can support your argument by providing something to back up your claim that it's alright to change the base item of a specific magic armor.

The fact that effects treat Grey Maiden plate as if it were standard full plate doesn't change the fact that in PFS, we have to buy specific magic weapons and armor as it is printed. Mithral Full Plate of Speed is printed as +1 mithral full plate, so that's what we have to buy it as. Since Grey Maiden plate is printed as a distinct item, that's what it is: a distinct item, separate from the standard full plate it otherwise counts as, regardless of developer intent. If they wanted it to be interchangeable like that, they should have simply defined Grey Maiden plate in the appropriate class features as full plate crafted with Grey Maiden styling, instead of giving it a full-blown item write up.

Look, we know that the intent was for things like this to work, but unfortunately we've had past instances in PFS where the technicalities have gotten in the way of the intent (see Wayfinder enhancement vanities). We have to go by the technicality, until we can get an exception made.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

What do you THINK the language "is mechanically identical" is meant to even convey if not for situations where it would matter that it was mechanically identical?

Like if not for things like this why would it even MATTER that Grey Maiden Plate or Hellknight Plate is "mechanically identical".

And what I am saying is that if I had spent the months necessary to save up for my +1 Mithral Grey Maiden Plate of Speed and a GM went "well TECHNICALLY thats an illegal item" and not let me use it I would be more than a little upset.

Developer intent IS important, because she's the developer and that was her direct intent. She is telling you, 100%, that the language "mechanically identical" is meant to mean exactly what the OP is hoping it means.

That has been good enough to adjudicate how literally dozens of rules and feats function, why is it not good enough here in this instance for you?

Grand Lodge 2/5

Developer intent doesn't matter in PFS unless its in the Campaign Clarifications sadly. I want it to work as Isabelle intended, but for now it doesn't.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

That's just flat out not true, we use Developer intent all the time.

See: Fast Learner Feat just as a quick for instance

The Exchange 3/5

It works exactly as intended in homegame pathfinder rpg. You simply can't craft a new item in organized play. It really is that straight forward.

I would even argue your grey maiden plate qualifies for this rule:

Quote:
Magic armor and weapons may be upgraded to named versions if they are the same basic material and shape as, and meet but do not exceed the enhancement bonuses of the named versions.

Which would let it become the exact stat-block posted above with no adjustments.

Second Seekers (Roheas) 4/5 5/55/55/55/5 **** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Appalachia

Its not a new item though.

Its the mechanically (as in for the purposes of mechanics exactly like these) same item that functions very slightly differently for people with a particular prestige class.

Shadow Lodge

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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The PFS rules for Specific Magic Items are ridiculously strict, though. If there isn't a stat block for +1 Mithral Grey Maiden Plate of Speed, then it doesn't exist.

It *could* exist. It *should* exist. But it doesn't.

The problem isn't anywhere in the definition of Grey Maiden Plate, by the way...that's fine. It's in the PFS rules for Specific Magic Items, and if you haven't read the thread about Upgrading Gear in PFS that is stickied at the top of the forum, then I suggest you do, because it is unhelpfully inflexible.

1/5

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Douglas Edwards wrote:

This argument and ones like it are literally why people walk away from PFS.

This is pedantic verging on pure stupidity, especially given that we have the designer right here telling you her intention.

Just to remind folks, since I do forget on occasion: I'm just a writer, with no actual rules authority. I can share my intentions and how I interpret the rules, but it is still just an opinion. Actual developers or members of PFS Leadership are the ones with real authority here.

Just had to put that out there again. ^_^

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Rysky wrote:
Gray Maiden Plate is from the Adventure's Guide.

Ah. Then I guess I'll never have a character that can wear it.

Curious that it doesn't come up on an Archivesofnethys search.

The Exchange 3/5

Nefreet wrote:
Rysky wrote:
Gray Maiden Plate is from the Adventure's Guide.

Ah. Then I guess I'll never have a character that can wear it.

Curious that it doesn't come up on an Archivesofnethys search.

Nethys Link

2/5

here it is did you check the pfs legal box? Nethys hasnt been updated with the newest ar update yet

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

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Actually. It was me after all. I don't spell "Grey" with an "a".

3/5 *

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Here's the thing. Mechanically, as written, you're absolutely right. PFS as written doesn't allow it. However, this is a case where as a GM, and were I a Venture Officer (or John or someone else in PFS leadership) I would absolutely allow it within whatever domain I had say over, because, in essence, not allowing it punishes the people who use what are functionally flavor items, playing as a Hellknight or Gray Maiden and using the appropriate armor (whether for pure flavor or class reasons), and saying that because of that, they're not allowed to use these unique magic items. RAW over RAI has its place, particularly in PFS where there's multiple levels of people involved who all might have had different interpretations (as Isabelle pointed out, her interpretation is not necessarily the designers' or leaderships'), but when the RAW unnecessarily punishes a player's choice of a specific flavoring of their armor, or for taking a particular prestige class or archetype that requires that flavoring, that is beyond the line in my opinion.

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