Paladin / Cleric - start... uhh... still noob questions :)


Hai... Missed me?

I'm taking a new class on my "let's look at it" table. Well more a character concept truth be told. So... We dealing with a Dwarven gal that worships Torag and bonks things in melee with her Warhammer. At first I wanted to make her a Cleric of Torag, but... I encountered some problems with that. Secondly I thought... Paladins are warrior clerics you dummy! So I took a look at Paladin.

Ehh... I encountered a few problems. That being... For Cleric that's low melee capabilities. For Paladin that's a racial -2 Charisma. So here I am... 20 point buy... Teach me Sempais!

Cleric idea:
I was thinking of a Divine Paragon, because if I found the right thing, since lvl 5, she will be abke to infuse her hammer with spells. If not, then I have no idea what the faith boons are. Couldn't find it anywhere. End of the day, she would be either Defence or Protection Domain, with Shield spell instead of a shield in hand.

Str 17 | 15
Dex 10 | 14
Con 12 | 10
Int 10 | 10
Wis 14 | 16
Cha 12 | 12

That's what I came up with so far... One is better at attacking, the other has better AC and more spells. But I never played the class, so it's raw thinking.

Paladin idea:
I was thinking of either the base Paladin or the Stonelord, but am leaning closer to the base Paladin. I am not sure, I like the idea of how defence oriented the Stonelord is, and his lowered heals potential. But he does get neat bonuses to melee damage from that Smite Evil replacement. But I want to be able to heal between fights and offer some offhand heals during combat. Again a devotee of Torag, but I am not sure it's anyhow relevant to a Paladin.

Str 15 | 17
Dex 14 | 12
Con 12 | 14
Int 10 | 10
Wis 10 | 10
Cha 14 | 12

Again my overall idea... I think that to be a melee fighter with backup heals, I would wajt that 14 Charisma for the Smite Evil and Lay on Hands, as well as bonus spells later. Although if I won't be able to use the smite bonus, my Attack will be just +3, maybe +4 if I start with Weapon Focus (Warhammer). I took Unstoppable instead of Hardy, which gives me Toughness as a free feat on lvl 1. And Craftsman instead of Greed. As a follower of Torag, she will be a blacksmith, doing her prayers during weapon meintenance or just crafting. As a Cleric, I was thinking of picking Focused Channel as first feat. As Paladin, I would opt for either Weapon Focus or Improved Shield Bash.

So... Is any of that of any value, or should I return to drawing board?

Clerics are not bad at melee at all, if you build them for it. Don't put your charisma any higher than 10 or your dex any higher than 12. You need enough wisdom to be able to cast spells but you don't need to start with a 18. You could probably be fine with a starting wis of 15. Focus on spells that will improve your melee attacks.

Or make an inquisitor and call it a paladin/cleric.

Inquisitor or Warpriest.... I'd probably lean towards Inquisitor as you'll have more fun out of combat

Oh, those Attribute Scores are after applying Dwarven modifiers. So for a Cleric, I should push for Wisdom over Strength? I thought that for melee you need that bonus to attack? Especially since Cleric has lower Class BAB then Paladin.

Maybe... S 16 D 12 C 12 I 10 W 15 C 12 ...would be better? Then a Protection or Defence domain for those AC bonuses and resistance buffs? What are those faith boons? I found something like... Magic Hammer for Torag worshippers, if they can cast lvl 3rd divine spells and did their obediences. But there is no prerequisites for that Deific Obedience feat, so I am not sure that's what's being mentioned there.

For a fighting Cleric - at least generally - you want to have primary STR, then enough WIS to cast all your spells (headbands count as a permanent bonus after 24hours, so eventually that can help). For a Cleric who is truly dedicated to fighting, you can potentially drop CHA. There is also the feat Guided Hand, which lets a cleric use wisdom for their attack rolls (though not for damage). A Cleric with high STR and WIS is also possible with the right approach.

A Cleric has many potential ways to improve combat ability, though the most dramatic is the spell Divine Favor (later Divine Power, which is similar but even better). Divine Favor, especially combined with the trait Fate's Favored (which adds +1 to its bonuses), essentially bumps a Cleric's combat ability up to a martial level. Where a level 9 Cleric has 3 lower BAB than a martial, Favor adds +3 attack (or +4 with Fate's).

Now, a martial class using all of their combat bonuses is still better than just a Cleric using a Favor Spell, but the gap is much smaller. This is then where a fighting Cleric wants to pick other things that improve combat - like taking a Domain which grants the Heroism spell (+2 to attacks for a long enough time you can pretty much always have it on), for just one example.

The one catch here is that these Favor spells are short duration. Depending on how your GM and party run, you may be able to routinely cast them in 'round 0' as it were, just as the fight starts - after all, if you know enemies are coming, or you know that there are enemies in the next room, then it makes sense that you would cast your best buff spell as they approach or as you move into the room. There's also the possibility at higher levels of using Quicken Spell to cast Favor as a swift action.

Lastly, taking a single level of a martial class can make a huge difference in how well a Cleric can fight; Barbarian, Monk and Swashbuckler, for example, offer major abilities at level 1. Taking a level of a fighting class means losing a level of spell progression, but with the Magical Knack trait, you don't have to lose any 'CL' (so a Fighter 1/ Cleric 4 would get the spells per day of a Cleric 4, but would cast them as if a Cleric 5). Taking a level of a martial class is a bit more complicated to make worth it, but it can totally transform a Cleric - like a high WIS Monk Cleric who uses Monk WIS AC and Flurry of Blows, or a Swashbuckler Cleric who wields a longsword in one hand with attack and damage coming from DEX instead of STR, and who knows how to parry attacks.

Shadow Lodge

NaeNae wrote:
I'm taking a new class on my "let's look at it" table. Well more a character concept truth be told. So... We dealing with a Dwarven gal that worships Torag and bonks things in melee with her Warhammer. At first I wanted to make her a Cleric of Torag, but... I encountered some problems with that.
Describe the "problems". (It'll help up determine what you really need.)
Secondly I thought... Paladins are warrior clerics you dummy! So I took a look at Paladin. Ehh... I encountered a few problems. That being... For Cleric that's low melee capabilities.
The one I made for you in the other thread had great melee capability.

For Paladin that's a racial -2 Charisma. So here I am... 20 point buy... Teach me Sempais!

Cleric idea:
I was thinking of a Divine Paragon, because if I found the right thing, since lvl 5, she will be abke to infuse her hammer with spells.

That is Warpriest being described right there.

Str 17 | 15

Dex 10 | 14
Con 12 | 10
I have no idea what these before/after stat-blocks are (they're not dwarven racial bonuses--???). Nobody else here lists character attributes this way.

Int 10 | 10

Wis 14 | 16
Cha 12 | 12

Warpriest literally begs a dwarf to dump CHA all the way to 5 and shift a ton of build points elsewhere. (People will reflexively assume that your dwarf is an ale-sotted belcher anyway, so you might as well live up to expectations and get a fat pile of benefit out of it.)


STR:17 (all bumps)
INT:12 (17,14,12,12,12,07 20pt array)


INT:12 (15,14,14,14,12,07 20pt array)

Well, the attributes got mixed up a bit, looked better in the post editor.

What I ment by the is, I consider two purchases for each class and am tinkering with it still. So in order Str, Dex, Con, Int, Wis and Cha...

Cleric that's:
17 10 12 10 14 12
15 14 10 10 16 12

Paladin that's:
15 14 12 10 10 14
17 12 14 10 10 12

Sorry if it wasn't clear before.

As for what I found... It were no boons. It was a diete specific feat. Here it is:
"Source Inner Sea Gods pg. 207 (Amazon)
Your god’s power radiates from your warhammer.

Prerequisites: Ability to cast 3rd-level divine spells, proficient with warhammer, worshiper of Torag.

Benefit: You can use any warhammer you wield as a holy symbol when casting spells that require a divine focus or when you channel energy.

Furthermore, as a swift action when you cast a divine touch spell, you can choose to have the warhammer carry the charge of the spell instead of your hand. When you deliver a touch spell with your warhammer you can do so as part of melee attack made with the warhammer. If you drop the warhammer or the warhammer is disarmed while carrying a charge, the charge is lost."

So I can use my hammer as the conduit for divine spells against my enemies. Which sounds handy, because then I can have my other hand occupied with a normal shield. I think... Either way, praying to Torag gives me a +1 to Attack rolls with warhammers. So there's that.

Using a warhammer to deliver a touch spell is a very, very handy ability in many situations. It's only as useful as the touch spell being delivered, however. Using it to maximum effect would typically involve a Cleric with fairly good wisdom as well as fairly good strength, or a Cleric using Guided Hand to make wisdom their attack ability. A Warpriest can use this ability reasonably well, but their spellcasting isn't up to the same level of effect as a Cleric.

Shadow Lodge

Dwarf paladin who spends 5 build points to get a 14 CHA which is then racially nerfed to a 12. A miserable 12.


Dwarf warpriest (have you looked at that class yet?) who dumps CHA and frees up 4 build points.

That's a differential swing of 9 build points in 20pt-buy, nearly half of your allotment. It's like pumping an 11 to a 16 elsewhere, then race-bumping it to an 18 (instead of a 13).

-- It's all magic tea-party until the GM calls for initiative. Then it's math. Moral of the story: have nice numbers.

[Blessed Hammer]: You can use any warhammer you wield as a holy symbol when casting spells that require a divine focus or when you channel energy.

While thematically rich, unfortunately there just aren't that many clerical touch-attacks that a worshiper of Torag is going to memorize that are any good, and of those, none that he'd rather not try to deliver with an ordinary touch-attack as opposed to having to breach an enemy's armored AC.

Also requires 3rd-level divine spellcasting. No prob for clerics, but it's a long way to 11th level in paladin (first chance he'll be able to take the feat).

~ ~ ~

Here's an idea: swift-action Divine Favor into your fisthammer as a 4th-level warpriest and smash things in the face at +3/+3 with Fate's Favored trait.

Read this and go to pound town.

Oh, and by the way: warpriest levels count as fighter levels and BAB when meeting prerequisites for the classes many bonus feats.

Blessed Hammer essentially grants you a free warhammer attack as a swift action, so it's very potent as far as action-economy goes. You don't lose the spell if you miss. In situations where the Cleric would move up and make a standard attack or move up with a touch spell casting, Blessed Hammer lets you do both at once. A level 8 Cleric with a 20ish damage warhammer strike can inflict double their normal standard attack damage by casting Inflict Critical through Blessed Hammer. Or they can add warhammer attack damage to throwing Bestow Curse on something.

Just for fun, here's an Ulfen Torag Cleric build I was toying with, that could easily be modified for Dwarf. As well as Blessed Hammer, it uses 'Stunning Hammer' - treating warhammer as a Monk weapon with Crusader's Flurry, and using a Monk weapon to deliver Stunning Fist with Cornugon Stun.

Torvild Hammerfist, Zealot of Torag
Unchained Monk 1/ Crusader Cleric of Torag 10
Dual Talent Human: 15/17STR, 12DEX, 14CON, 10INT, 16/18WIS, 7CHA
Traits: Fate's Favored, Magical Knack
Domain: Protection/Defense

1UM. +Dodge / Cornugon Stun
2CC. +Weapon Focus: Warhammer
3CC. Crusader's Flurry: Warhammer
5CC. Mantis Style
6CC. +Shield Focus
7CC. Blessed Hammer
9CC. Unhindering Shield
11CC. +Improved Critical: Warhammer / Power Attack

This character wields a warhammer in two hands while also wearing a buckler with Shield Focus and Unhindering Shield (which makes it work with Monk stuff). They use Dodge, the spell Magic Vestment, a Monk's Robe, and Wisdom AC for defense, along with their buckler and the long-term spell Barkskin (Defense Domain), which makes them seriously tanky. Defense Domain and the Monk dip also gives them huge saves.

They make Flurry of Blows attacks with the warhammer for full attack actions, and can make Blessed Hammer attacks for their standard actions. They can drop Stunning Fist through their warhammer, including with a Blessed Hammer strike (nothing like bashing a target with Bestow Curse and Stunning Fist through a hammer). Mantis Style and a Monk's Robe brings their Stunning Fist to 5/day by 9, and it drops with a really mean DC from high WIS and Mantis.

The issue I have with dump stats is... I can't RP a character that's so socially inept. We RP our attribute scores. A 5 Charisma is on the level of mentally disabled bridge troll. 10 is average. 7 is close to an introvert. 13 and up is a charismatic extrovert. 5 is a clay brick animated by some earth mage into living. I just can't RP that... Same as I am reluctant to drop Intelligence too low. I can manage a less clever character, but not an outrigt dumb one.

I will read about Warpriest. Haven't looked at the class yet. And i will surely be back soon :)

Clerics of Iodemae have some nice feats for a melee build :( Where is the love for Torag? :(

You'll almost never find me creating a character with an INT lower than 10, unless there's some interesting reason for it (like a character whose reason and intellect are derailed by a parade of spirits chattering in her head). Low-ish CHA can be explained in a lot of ways though, like if someone is simply blunt to a fault and not particularly social (which would fit a Torag Cleric anyhow). The average Dwarf is 8CHA, which Pathfinder calls 'a bit gruff'. So a point off of 8 would be 'a bit gruff even for a Dwarf'. Functionally, the difference between 6 and 10 CHA is a -2 on social skills, which is the difference between success and failure at a social interaction 1 out of 10 times. Or put another way, all things being equal, a 6CHA Cleric is better at Diplomacy than a 10CHA Fighter.

Torag has Defense Domain, a nice favored weapon, a Deific Obediance that grants an attack bonus, and the ability to use a warhammer to deliver 'touch' spells. That's an awful lot more melee love than a lot of deities get.

If you're playing a dwarf, so for an adjusted Cha of 10. Of and play either a warpriest or inquisitor.

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I played a dwarf barbarian/magus with 16 Int, 12 Wis, and 6 Cha. I played up the low Cha as chronic foot-in-mouth disease. He always said the wrong thing at exactly the right time, and ideally in a hilarious manner. He also used failed Diplomacy checks as a way of getting opponents to target him in battle. Or to start battles. :-P

I also play a 5E half-elf rogue street urchin with 8 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha. I play him up as "street smart" which means he is very, very book dumb. Also every other kind of dumb. Too bad he doesn't know he is dumb, and thinks he's the smartest guy in the room. I also play up his 14 Wisdom as stubborn and occasionally uncannily intuitive, and not enlightened or wise at all. He's really fun. I try to use lots of malapropisms with him. He always says a different kind of the wrong thing at exactly the right time, and ideally in a hilarious manner. :-D

I haven't played a low-Wisdom character, but that's mostly because I'm too much of a power gamer (wimp) to dump my Will saves and Perception checks, and I really like the other Wisdom-based skills, like Survival, Sense Motive, and even Heal and Profession (particularly sailor).

Shadow Lodge

NaeNae wrote:
The issue I have with dump stats is... I can't RP a character that's so socially inept. We RP our attribute scores. A 5 Charisma is on the level of mentally disabled bridge troll. 10 is average. 7 is close to an introvert.

We do not RP our attribute scores; we RP our character, which is a total package of attributes, traits, feats, skills, items, and class abilities.

A CHA:05 dwarf barbarian in a courtier's outfit with a single rank in Diplomacy and a trait making it a class skill for him with a +1 bonus has a better chance of influencing someone in high society than a CHA:12 human fighter in his traveling gear with two ranks in Diplomacy.

"The are no ugly dwarves, only lazy ones."
-- Helena Rubinstein

Channel Smite is in the CRB. To my reading, it has no restrictions as to what other abilities you can add to the attack. Would that be a relevant point?

What are Blessings for a Warpriest? Clerics get Domains, but I can't find an explenation on Blessings. Is it one and the same?

Now it wasn't something that you personally brought up, but I think it is fair to make the suggestion. Look into Oracle, my suggestion is based on the fact that clerics get all the spells on their list automaticly and need to decide on what spells to prepare, this can cause bit of decision paralysis for a newbie that doesn't know the go to spells by memory. Also generally speaking oracles are better at their spesific niche than clerics, who in comparison are better overall. The 4+int skills also help a bit. I would personally suggest battle mystery for such a character. The penalty to cha is not a big deal since you will only ever need 19CHA tops on the character since you should not be planning on casting offensive spells.(or if you do not ones that have a save.)

However regardless what class you go with, if you are a dwarf steel soul feat is one of the best investments possible. If combined with paladin it can result in basicly being able to laugh at enemy spell casters trying to effect you with anything that allows a save. (And if they somehow succeed anyway mercies allow to get rid of plenty of nasty conditions.)

NaeNae wrote:
What are Blessings for a Warpriest? Clerics get Domains, but I can't find an explenation on Blessings. Is it one and the same?

Blessings are on the Warpriest page rather than their own thing like Domains.

You don't have to play 5 Cha as 5 Cha. You can't be suave and the greatest smooth talker ever, but that doesn't mean your character can't try. 5 Int doesn't mean your character bangs his head on the wall every time he has to think.

If you have a positive bonus to the three party skills and have enough magical talent to not need Use Magical Device, do you really have negative Charisma?

How about an Oracle? I'm not sure I grasp the whole idea of the character, but it seems like the Life Oracle is kind of good for healing stuff.

Oracles are pretty awesome. I tend to find Life Oracles kind of boring, especially as heal-bots, since there's such a huge range of really cool things you can do with an Oracle.

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A Life Oracle can use its Revelations to up its healing, then use its spell selection and feat selection and even weapon selection to bring on the versatility.


Also, oradin. Multi-class oracle and paladin to make a beefy tank and healer and face.

A awesome dwarf paladin is the tortured crusader. Biggest downfall is finding a item to give you detect evil back. (Or a friendly gm)

I decided that my dwarf disciple of Torag will be a Stonelord. Just because I like the idea of the character and how the feel of the archetype fits the church of Torag.

As fir my melee healer... I decided that if I ever need such a character, I will build a Human Alchemist with:
Mutagen to raise Strength to 21 before combat or on the first round. Later Bull's Strength Extract as well. A twohanded weapon of sorts... Or maybe a 1 lvl dip into Fighter on lvl 1 before going full on Alchemist. Out of combat Heal utility. Intimidating Prowess and that feat that lets you do free Intimidate on Power Attacks, also the trait to use Intimidate of Int not Cha. Should be interesting to play.

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Master Chymist to add more melee nastiness?

So I've been revisiting the idea of Paladin... And was looking at various races that I could play with. And well, surprise surprise... Aasimar cought my attention. Because wings and angels <3

And I'm reading into all there is about them and stuff... And I encountered a small problem. Here is what I had on my mind and why it's a problem. Perhaps there is a simple work around that I have yet to find, but that's why I came to you guys <3

Angel Blooded; Exalted Resistance instead of Celestial Resistance; the rest is base Aasimar because I didn't see anything special there;

Ability Scores:
Str 16+2 Dex 12 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 10 Cha 13+2; that's what I came up with with a 20 point buy; I was romancing with Str 14+2 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 15+2, but... I figured Strength will be more important early on than Charisma; all level ups would go into Charisma, I think; so here is that; if you have any advice, please do share;

Influence (Intimidate) - you gain a +1 trait bonus on that skill, and it is always a class skill for you;
Blade of Mercy - removes the -4 penalty for dealing nonlethal damage with slashing weapons and adds +1 to the nonlethal damage dealt with them; I will explain later why those;

Sarenrae, because I like Scimitar, but not only; more later;

Enforcer, Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Dazzling Display, Divine Fighting Technique, Intimidating Presence; as you can imagine, I intend to build into Intimidation mostly, but truth be told, I encountered a small problem, more about it below; first of all, there are lots of sick feats for intimidate based of of Power Attack, but considering my deity and her Divine Fighting Technique prerequisites, I was thinking of going the Dazzling Display route; but... I am torn and uncertain here, so please help <3

End of the day here is my idea of a character. She's an Aasimar with angel blood in her. She's a devote to Sarenrae, using a Scimitar, Shield and some Heavy Armor. My idea was to exploit the non-lethal damage delt with Scimitar, which would allow me to use Enforcer and Divine Fighting Technique; one would let me Demoralize and the other would heal me for 1d6 for each hit I make. With the trait Blade of Mercy I would even remove the -4 penalty when dealing non-lethal damage with my Scimitar. But... Between Weapon Focus, Dazzling Display and Enforcer, not to mention all the other feats... I would be giving up on my Angel Wings, which I am reluctant to do. Not to mention the bigger issue. Divine Fighting Technique prerequisite states that I have to be of equal alignment to my deity. Sarenrae is NG while Paladins are forced to be LG. Uhm... Hello? Why is it like that? Lawful means that she is following the code of her Deity, not that she is abiding to the law and all of that. So why would a Deity prevent her favor to someone who revers her? Is there a way around it that I don't know of?

If you like Paladins and scimitars and Sarenrae, you could always go for one level of Scaled Fist Monk on a Sarenrae Paladin and take Crusader's Flurry. CHA to AC while unarmored and Unchained Flurry of Blows with a scimitar. A 20pt. buy with a build like that could easily start with 18's in both STR and CHA, while going Angel-Blooded Aasimar or Dual-Talent Human or Kindred-Raised Half-Elf. You can even use Cornugon Stun with Crusader's Flurry and Scaled Fist to make CHA-based Stunning Fist attacks with a scimitar. I've heard whispers that Sarenrae has a fondness for gold dragons...

I would prefer not to multiclass, or at least use some prestige class that would not stop my paladin class progress.

Liberty's Edge

You could pretty readily dump Wis for more Cha and Int. Wis 8 gets you Cha 14+2 and only costs you a bit of Will Save. Wis 7 could also get you Int 12.

As for Feats, personally I wouldn't bother with the Divine Fighting Technique. Blade of Mercy gets you what you need from that to make Enforcer and the rest work. That helps you get Angel Wings, too, though perhaps not quite as quickly as you'd like.

How about... Weapon Focus (Scimitar), Dazzling Display, Intimidating Prowess, Improved Critical and Violent Display? Then I can grab Angel Blood and Angel Wings. That's till lvl 13 I belive.

With a 15-20 on Scimitar... Still Intimidate would only happen on Crits. Not very reliable.

Or maybe swap Dazzling Display with Power Attack and Violent Display with Cornungon Smash?

Liberty's Edge

Enforcer + Blade of Mercy is absolutely worth it. I'd stick with that. I'm honestly a lot less sold on the Dazzling Display line on this character. I'd be much more inclined to grab Power Attack and just Intimidate everyone you hit. That works out nicely, IMO.

1 - Weapon Focus (Scimitar)
3 - Power Attack
5 - Enforcer
7 - Intimidating Prowess
9 - Cornungon Smash
Like that works?

I don't want her to be a focused healer tbh. She is to slap things and make them fear her righteous fury.

Here's an interesting option for this character IMO, take unsactioned knowledge to gain spells from other spell lists, in this case you could get blistering invective. Blistering Invective's description says "an insulting tirade", but I think that could be re fluffed as righteous fury IMO. The spell does fire damage, catches the targets on fire and demoralizes them (each enemy within 30') as a standard action. They don't even get a save and with your characters intimidate you'll almost always succeed.

The downside is that you'll need int of 13 and it takes a feat, plus it's a second level spell, so It's available only a limited number of times per day, so making big changes to accommodate it would sting especially early on. Since this is the case you could start with an intelligence of 11 and increase it with either a headband of mental prowess (int/cha) 10,000 gold or scarlet and blue sphere ioun stone 8,000 gold. The main advantage of the ioun stone is that it leaves the headband slot open for the charisma headband so it can be +4 sooner. It'd probably be a good level 11 feat with a slight (1 point) bump to int, the cost of the items shouldn't be too much at level 11.

You know, for an Aasimar martial character with stacked CHA, the Heavenly Radiance feat is pretty awesome. Wandering Star Motes and one-shot Sunbeam SLAs are like being part Sorcerer at the cost of feats. Literally shooting rays of sun at bad guys is pretty righteous, and fits a Sarenrae Paladin like a glove. From a power perspective, a level 7 spell SLA that inflicts reflex save or permanent blindness is nasty.

Temple Champion with the Glory Domain opens up using the Glorious Presence Blessing, which is all about dominating opponents with righteous presence. Anything that even thinks of trying to attack you, even with a spell, has to make a will save vs your CHA or give up in awe. It's like Sanctuary on steroids, that still lets you attack.

Wouldn't the loss of Divine Bond be a bit... Drastic? Not to mention giving up all the Paladin's spellcasting. It's not too powerful, but... Divine Fervor, Magic Weapon, Bull's Strength, Cure Light Wounds? I guess if we have a caster Cleric in our party to fill in those holes a Temple Chempion would cause.

If I were to go that path, I believe Glory Domain or Fire Domain would be my choices. I am not sold on the Glory Aura, as it stops anyone affected by it from attacking, but perhaps for some quick in battle buffs and positioning?

All in all, I would have to focus more on Strength than Charisma with that Archetype, no? Losing magical weapon enhancement with spells...

Paladin Spellcasting and Divine Bond are major trade-offs, though how useful they are tends to depend on how a group runs the whole 'pre-buffing' thing. The main reason I mentioned Temple Champion is that Glorious Presence perfectly fits the theme of righteous intimidation.

Glorious Presence doesn't stop anyone from doing anything. If you choose to attack something, then Glorious Presence ends only against that creature, meaning that every single other enemy still has to deal with it.

So you can activate it, move up to a target, laugh as they try to attack and fail, then full attack them next round. Meanwhile, anything else trying to hit you is getting bounced.

Or even better, if it's already active, you can move up to a target and ready an attack in response to them attacking you; basically you dare them to try and hit you, then you respond with your own attack after they've failed... and then full attack next round before they get to do anything. Again, anything else trying to get involved is still running into a magic wall of glory.

Anyhow, it's just one option. Personally I really like Heavenly Radiance thing, which can work with or without going Temple Champion. Having three or four high-level spellcastings per day for a couple feats is just awesome.

Glory domain aura:
At 8th level, you can emit a 30-foot aura of divine presence for a number of rounds per day equal to your cleric level. All allies within this aura are treated as if under the effects of a sanctuary spell with a DC equal to 10 + 1/2 your cleric level + your Wisdom modifier. These rounds do not need to be consecutive. Activating this ability is a standard action. If an ally leaves the area or makes an attack, the effect ends for that ally. If you make an attack, the effect ends for you and your allies.

Sanctuary spell:
Any opponent attempting to directly attack the warded creature, even with a targeted spell, must attempt a Will save. If the save succeeds, the opponent can attack normally and is unaffected by that casting of the spell. If the save fails, the opponent can’t follow through with the attack, that part of its action is lost, and it can’t directly attack the warded creature for the duration of the spell. Those not attempting to attack the subject remain unaffected. This spell does not prevent the warded creature from being attacked or affected by area of effect spells. The subject cannot attack without breaking the spell but may use non-attack spells or otherwise act.

Temple Champion:
At 5th level, a temple champion gains the minor blessing (as the warpriest class feature) of the domain she selected at 4th level. She uses her paladin level as her warpriest level for determining the effects of that blessing. Any Wisdom-based aspects of that blessing instead use the temple champion’s Charisma.

Glory Blessing:
Glorious Presence (minor): At 1st level, you can touch an ally and grant it a glorious blessing. For 1 minute, the ally becomes mesmerizing to her foes. This functions as sanctuary, except if the ally attacks an opponent, this effect ends with respect to only that opponent. This is a mind-affecting effect.

Temple Champion only gets the level 1 Domain Power of their selected Domain, but they end up with both the minor and major Blessings. Which also means that by higher levels they can potentially even use Glorious Presence as a freakin' swift action.

Aaaaah... I've been looking at the wrong stuff... Again. *grumbles* That's kind of neat, if you can use it on yourself that is. Would perfectly fit my "get in their face and be annoying" idea.

So if I understand it right. She would lose all spellcasting abilities and the Divine Bond feature. In return she would at level 4 pick a Domain, Glory in this example and... That's that? On lvl 4 she just picks a domain and gains nothing? Then at level 5 she receives this touch thingy that makes her supper annoying to all enemies. Or would she also get this buff to Charisma based skills? I am sorry but I am a bit lost between Domain Powers, Blessings and Spells... As I understand it, she would gain Touch buff to one Charisma based skill equal half her level and then level after the Touch buff of Glorious Presence? If she gets the second Blessing as well, I need to rethink my build. Because it says:

Demoralizing Glory (major): At 10th level, when you successfully damage an opponent with a melee attack or attack spell, as a swift action you can attempt to demoralize that opponent with the Intimidate skill using your ranks in Intimidate or your warpriest level, whichever is higher.

I am not sure I understand the difference between swift and free, but... Wouldn't swift prevent me from using multiple attacks in that turn? Would it work with Attacks of Opportunity? I mean... I am not sure I understand it right.

At level 4, Temple Champion gains the Domain Power a Cleric would normally get at level 1. In the case of Glory Domain, that's the Touch of Glory power.

Then, at level 5, Temple Champion gains the minor Warpriest Blessing for Glory, which is Glorious Presence.

Then, at level 11, Temple Champion gains the Major Blessing, which is Demoralizing Glory.

Swift actions are a lot like free actions, but you only get one swift or immediate action per round. So while Demoralizing Glory is nice, you can't use it on the same round that you use a swift action to Lay on Hands or activate Smite Evil. The ability to use Cornugon Smash or Enforcer to intimidate as a free action is actually much more useful, because there's not really any limit to free actions (well, other than the GM).

Since it's 3AM, Interlude.

Hmm, now that I think of it... It will be more or less... Emforcer Power Attack with intimidate to shaken them. Then another to make them frightened? Is there no way to apply a more severe effect sooner? I like Shatter Defences because it makes them flat footed. But it requires Dazzling Display.

So... Either it's... Weapon Focus (Scimitar) and then...

Enforcer + Dazzling Display + Shatter Defences + Frightening Ambush
Enforcer + Power Attack + Cornungon Smash + and that's all?

So... Either done by lvl 9 or 7. The former allows a continuous flat footed for one, the later frees a feat slot and just debuffs the enemy with shaken. Is it really necessary to make them flat footed as a Paladin? For a Rogue it might be sweet, but a Paladin has full BAB and without spells I can focus more on Strength to boost the attack rolls.

I am a bit torn here...

Intimidate + Intimidate doesn't ever create a stronger fear condition.

Shatter Defenses isn't as great as it may seem. The first hit applies shaken (hopefully), then the second hit triggers Shatter Defenses. So it's only from hit no.3 onward that Shatter actually does anything. Flat footed is kind of handy, but it's only truly powerful with sneak attacks. So while Shatter is nice for a Rogue or Slayer or whatever, I'm not sure how much a Paldin is going to get out of spending all those feats - after all, Shatter doesn't help your allies' attacks. If you wield a two-handed weapon, it probably barely even benefits your own attacks before something is dead.

So technically, no need to invest so much in it as it won't stack. Or hope for a Shaken from a different source in my team.


1. Weapon Focus
3. Intimidating Prowess
5. Power Attack
7. Enforcer

Because most likely... I already have Cornungon Smash in Enforcer, if I deal non-lethal with my Power Attack, no? Now... I can focus on other stuff.

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