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P.245 : Ranged Attacks with a Thrown Weapon : "With a thrown weapon or a grenade, you can make a ranged attack at a target..."
(Next PP) Targeting a Grid Intersection : "When using a thrown weapon that has an area effect, such as a grenade, you target a specific grid intersection on a tactical battle map, rather than a specific creature."
Question #1 : So which is it? Can you choose to target an enemy's KAC, or do you have to target a grid intersection? Is the "or a grenade" an artifact from a previous rules incarnation?
Question #2: Can a grenade score a critical hit (targeting that AC 5 grid intersection) that does 2x damage to all targets in the radius (possibly mitigated by a successful reflex save)?
p.181 - Explode : "When you attack with this type of weapon or ammunition, aim at a grid intersection."
Question #3: Is the Plasma Cannon intended to *only* target a map intersection (as written)?
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#1 Both rules are true. It's just that the "target" mentioned in mentioned on p.245 is a grid intersection not a creature while most other thrown options target a creature.
#2 I don't believe you can crit with explode, hence the lack of a crit column on the grenade chart. But I'll have to dig to find the rule for that, if it's spelled out somewhere.
#3 that's how I would read it with all explode weapons. I can see a few in game explanations, depending on how the GM wanted to flavor things.
#1 Both rules are true. It's just that the "target" mentioned in mentioned on p.245 is a grid intersection not a creature while most other thrown options target a creature.
That makes sense... hadn't thought of it that way.
#2 I don't believe you can crit with explode, hence the lack of a crit column on the grenade chart. But I'll have to dig to find the rule for that, if it's spelled out somewhere.
The Plasma Cannon is a weapon with the Explode special property that *does* have a listed Crit Effect (Burn). Also (p.192): "You can install a fusion into a grenade, a piece of ammunition, or another consumable item;" so that would be a way to add a crit effect to a grenade.
#3 that's how I would read it with all explode weapons. I can see a few in game explanations, depending on how the GM wanted to flavor things.
I was just curious as to whether you might be able to target a specific individual with an Explode weapon (very likely a much harder shot/throw, targeting their actual AC instead of AC 5) in order to deprive them of a reflex save for half damage. Sounds like that might be solidly in house rule territory though.
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I would prefer so too, but either way could be neat. You crit and all of a sudden your foes must run from their lovely cover because those four squares are now on fire for a d8 a round. Of course then after the fight you have to deal with the raging fire you made that's turning your ship from life supporting oasis in the void to burned out hulk you hope someone finds soon.
Okay I Have never seen an AOE that could crit, and I have been playing since second edition D&D ....That's a clue ....Second targets a intersection not every person in range ..so not even going against a person ac to see if it confirms the crit...another clue ...so I'm going with no grenade or explode weapons can crit ...HOWEVER PRETTY SURE THE EFFECTS ON EXPLODE WEAPONS AREN'T CRIT EFFECTS THEY HAPPEN WHENEVER YOU FAIL THE SAVE (I think they just ended up their because that's how the range weapon chart is set up ) ...IF a Incendiary grenade mk2 does 1d6 burn whenever you fail a save the a red star plasma cannon should do a 1d8 burn whenever you fail the save (the one that does wounding throws people off i think... )
my grenade question is if i load them into a grenade launcher do i get to use my heavy weapon specialization to add my level in damage ( I know they can't be specialize in otherwise)
got an answer for my launcher question...(Ravingdork)Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Pawns, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber Raegos
Page 59: "Grenades, missiles, and other consumable weapons never add specialization damage, even when you’re using weapons like a cyberbow or grenade launcher."
Does make me wonder where I can get a cyberbow though. :P
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whether other games had AoEs that could crit is not in any way an indication of how explosion weapons work in Starfinder.
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Yea I know they can change whatever the want, they wrote it ....the point is, you would think if your gonna change something like AOEs being able to crit ..something that's been around since second edition (at least) and more importantly the game Starfinder is most heavily based off of Pathfinder..you would take the time to state it pretty clearly ...don't you think ...maybe explain if the crit applies to everyone or you pick one ...explain if the initial attack is tested against everyone ac to see if it crits ....in this case the absence of rules explaining it seems to be the answer....its not something i would consider minor details (like the polyhand rules for instance)
blue sidebar on p181 seems to support my last post
So to sum up:
1. Yes, explosive weapons do critical damage on a 20.
2. Starfinder has no confirmation roll, so the enemy's E/KAC doesn't matter.
3. Damage and critical is rolled once and applied to all targets (and then possibly reduced by reflex).
Uncertain: Would the burn critical effect set the area on fire as well as the targets?
So to sum up:
1. Yes, explosive weapons do critical damage on a 20.
2. Starfinder has no confirmation roll, so the enemy's E/KAC doesn't matter.
3. Damage and critical is rolled once and applied to all targets (and then possibly reduced by reflex).Uncertain: Would the burn critical effect set the area on fire as well as the targets?
This sort of conclusion really makes me want to see a devs input on this.
Does it say in the book that all targets in an AoE take double damage? Because that doesn't sound broken or anything. Also seems out of character for Paizo to do. That's something I'd expect to read in a 3pp.
And yes, the KAC/EAC does matter, sometimes. If you take penalties to your attack roll or the like, if you don't meet their AC on a roll of 20 it's not a critical.
So to sum up:
1. Yes, explosive weapons do critical damage on a 20.
2. Starfinder has no confirmation roll, so the enemy's E/KAC doesn't matter.
3. Damage and critical is rolled once and applied to all targets (and then possibly reduced by reflex).Uncertain: Would the burn critical effect set the area on fire as well as the targets?
This sort of conclusion really makes me want to see a devs input on this.
Does it say in the book that all targets in an AoE take double damage? Because that doesn't sound broken or anything. Also seems out of character for Paizo to do. That's something I'd expect to read in a 3pp.
It says that all weapons do double damage when they roll a 20, and it provides critical effects for some explode weapons. It also states that "effects" that roll to hit crit and do double damage on a 20. Explode weapons are generally balanced by relatively low damage, high ammo consumption, and penalties to the DC equal to penalties on your attack roll. A rare double damage (and burn or deafen, if appropriate) isn't a big deal.
It says that all weapons do double damage when they roll a 20, and it provides critical effects for some explode weapons. It also states that "effects" that roll to hit crit and do double damage on a 20. Explode weapons are generally balanced by relatively low damage, high ammo consumption, and penalties to the DC equal to penalties on your attack roll. A rare double damage (and burn or deafen, if appropriate) isn't a big deal.So to sum up:
1. Yes, explosive weapons do critical damage on a 20.
2. Starfinder has no confirmation roll, so the enemy's E/KAC doesn't matter.
3. Damage and critical is rolled once and applied to all targets (and then possibly reduced by reflex).Uncertain: Would the burn critical effect set the area on fire as well as the targets?
This sort of conclusion really makes me want to see a devs input on this.
Does it say in the book that all targets in an AoE take double damage? Because that doesn't sound broken or anything. Also seems out of character for Paizo to do. That's something I'd expect to read in a 3pp.
But this doesn't explain how they are supposed to interact when a critical is applied to an exploding weapon. If we're going to say that "yes, crits apply to all targets in the radius" then I won't agree to that. If a cone from an automatic weapon or a blast AoE weapon doesn't work like that, then it won't work like that for an explode weapon unless stated. No where is that stated.
It says that all weapons do double damage when they roll a 20, and it provides critical effects for some explode weapons. It also states that "effects" that roll to hit crit and do double damage on a 20. Explode weapons are generally balanced by relatively low damage, high ammo consumption, and penalties to the DC equal to penalties on your attack roll. A rare double damage (and burn or deafen, if appropriate) isn't a big deal.So to sum up:
1. Yes, explosive weapons do critical damage on a 20.
2. Starfinder has no confirmation roll, so the enemy's E/KAC doesn't matter.
3. Damage and critical is rolled once and applied to all targets (and then possibly reduced by reflex).Uncertain: Would the burn critical effect set the area on fire as well as the targets?
This sort of conclusion really makes me want to see a devs input on this.
Does it say in the book that all targets in an AoE take double damage? Because that doesn't sound broken or anything. Also seems out of character for Paizo to do. That's something I'd expect to read in a 3pp.
But this doesn't explain how they are supposed to interact when a critical is applied to an exploding weapon. If we're going to say that "yes, crits apply to all targets in the radius" then I won't agree to that. If a cone from an automatic weapon or a blast AoE weapon doesn't work like that, then it won't work like that for an explode weapon unless stated. No where is that stated.
Exceptions to the rules need to be stated. Blast, line and automatic weapon qualities state exceptions to the general crit rules. Explode does not.
Explosives have the explode special property, which lists the amount of damage the explosion deals, the damage type, special effects (with a duration, if necessary), and the radius of the explosion. When you attack with this type of weapon or ammunition, aim at a grid intersection. Each creature within the blast radius takes the listed damage but can attempt a Reflex saving throw for half damage. If the explode special property has any special effects other than damage, they are negated with a successful saving throw. Some exploding weapons, such
as smoke grenades, don’t deal damage, so they don’t include the damage and damage type entries.
They had the opportunity to say something about critical hits here. They didn't. In fact, they included critical effects on explode weapons - unlike automatic weapons with critical effects, they can never be used in single target mode, so they necessarily must effect targets in their area. How many? All of them, because they didn't include a limitation, special rule, or exemption like they did with line, automatic, or blast.
When you make an attack roll and get a natural 20 (the d20 comes up 20), you hit regardless of your target’s AC. If the total result of your attack roll meets or exceeds the target’s EAC or KAC (as appropriate for your attack), you’ve also scored a critical hit. You roll your damage twice, each time with all your usual bonuses and including any additional damage from special abilities, and then add the rolls together. Some weapons inflict a special effect on a target of a critical hit, in addition to dealing double damage (see page 182).
If the total result of your attack is less than your target’s relevant AC, your attack still hits on a natural 20, but it deals damage normally.
Does an explode weapon's natural 20 exceed the 5 AC of the grid intersection? Almost always, and then it crits. You then roll your damage twice. That damage, as usual for an explode weapon, is then applied to all creatures within the listed blast radius.
Makes sense to me.
Exceptions to the rules need to be stated. Blast, line and automatic weapon qualities state exceptions to the general crit rules. Explode does not.
Yeah, I don't agree with any of this. If 3/4 of the AoE weapon qualities all get rulings about they exactly work, while the explode quality is allowed to have no clarification about how criticals work for it, then we're just going have to agree to disagree. Especially since it's an AoE that allows a reflex save with a crit, which has never existed in any paizo product, somehow is allowed to be rules free. I just can't take this particular argument seriously.
Hopefully we'll get an errata or a FAQ on this. Until then, I see this as nothing more than a house rule.
The evidence was posted by Xenocrat 6 posts up-thread. The rules are pretty clear. Explode weapons have 0 words describing how critical hits differ from the general Critical Hits Rules, unlike other methods of shooting (burst, automatic, line.) Because of this, it means that the general Critical Hits Rules are to be used with explode weapons, unless or until an errata is made to the rules.
As has been stated, it doesn’t particularly matter whether a person believes this or not. The importance lies with the general ‘People who play starfinder’ group knowing what the rule is. Choosing not to follow it is, of course, any GM’s option, and I hope they enjoy their game and their house rules.
Right, that kind of omission is not a rule. Seems like they forgot to include what the actual rules are, to me. This "interpretation" is also not consistent or balanced with how they designed their weapons.
Anyway, you can run your games the way you want. Just understand that some people don't accept omissions and lack of clarifications as actual rules. Not everybody likes to pull rules from the air and examine the rules we do have under a microscope to come up with a conclusion. That's bad game design.
So your argument is that the lack of an exception that you expect to be there means that the rule actually is the exception that you expected to be there but isn't?
Right, that kind of omission is not a rule. Seems like they forgot to include what the actual rules are, to me. This "interpretation" is also not consistent or balanced with how they designed their weapons.
See, again, you're not arguing what the rules are, you're arguing what they should be. Rules as Intended, not Rules as Written. That is not the discussion at hand. RAI can be argued six ways from sunday, but unless there's eratta or a dev post, it can't ever be settled. This is why most in-depth discussions around here involve Rules as Written, because RAW will typically have a single answer once you get all the separate pieces put together.
Anyway, you can run your games the way you want. Just understand that some people don't accept omissions and lack of clarifications as actual rules. Not everybody likes to pull rules from the air and examine the rules we do have under a microscope to come up with a conclusion.
Explicitly stating you don't like RAW discussions here. And that's understandable. You're welcome to have discussions on balance, houseruling, and RAI to your heart's content. But please don't shoulder your way into a RAW discussion and try to turn it into one of those.
Right, that kind of omission is not a rule. Seems like they forgot to include what the actual rules are, to me. This "interpretation" is also not consistent or balanced with how they designed their weapons.See, again, you're not arguing what the rules are, you're arguing what they should be. Rules as Intended, not Rules as Written. That is not the discussion at hand. RAI can be argued six ways from sunday, but unless there's eratta or a dev post, it can't ever be settled. This is why most in-depth discussions around here involve Rules as Written, because RAW will typically have a single answer once you get all the separate pieces put together.
Anyway, you can run your games the way you want. Just understand that some people don't accept omissions and lack of clarifications as actual rules. Not everybody likes to pull rules from the air and examine the rules we do have under a microscope to come up with a conclusion.Explicitly stating you don't like RAW discussions here. And that's understandable. You're welcome to have discussions on balance, houseruling, and RAI to your heart's content. But please don't shoulder your way into a RAW discussion and try to turn it into one of those.
I don't think I've actually ever stated what I wanted the rules to be. My arguments stem from people somehow interpreting what the rules are as if it's concrete from literally nothing. I have no problem discussing RAW, but there needs to be something there to do this. When I bring this up, for some reason, it started rubbing people the wrong way. I'm just calling it out for what it is. I've had plenty RAW discussions, but there was always something to talk about. In here, people are acting like this bizzare interpretation of this rule is somehow obvious and clear as day. I wish I can see what they're seeing.
Again, I wasn't saying what it should be, I'm saying that applying a critical effect and damage to everything in a radius, regardless of how large, is very uncharacteristic of Paizo to publish. This is something I would expect from a 3pp, where they generally deviate and disregard any sort of balance, logic, and consistency from any of Paizo's books. This was intended to be just my opinion.
Anyway, this clearly needs a FAQ. You guys can pretend there is a rule, but there isn't. This isn't the first time they omitted an important detail that needs to be present, in Starfinder.
For that matter, there is now in fact something somewhat similar in PF, with a grenade aimed at an AC5 grid intersection into a reflex save for half damage, and no mention of how crits (or misses, in its case) are handled (the gunpowder bombardier ninja, from Heroes of the Fringe).
And I've no idea how it works either, for that matter but : the parallel now exists. Even if not a weapon.
Anyways.
To the subject at hand : I have a hard time buying they just forgot to put vital wording in the explode property.
Every single non-grenade weapon with the explode property that I can see has a critical effect.
A bunch of those are in Pact Worlds and Armory, much more recent than the core book.
Seems likely that crits are possible.
Blasts and lines have specific ways to handle critical hits, which is more than likely due to how they resolve hits in the first place. Non-standard hit resolution, non-standard crit mechanics. Makes sense.
Explode has nothing. And its hit mechanic is basic : one attack roll, ac5.
Usually, no mention of an exception implies the generic rules apply.
We've had a while now, those are common weapons, there have been several faq updates since release, answers to other stuff on the forums : If explode weapons couldn't crit at all, I choose to believe we would have been made aware.
Or at the very least, if it was an omission, I certainly hope they'd stop putting out explode weapons with crit effects.
Still. That doesn't clear everything.
There's enough confusion around this mess (can it crit ? does the poor intersection suffer the crit effect alone or does everyone in the area ? etc) that I'm going to hit that faq button.